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Why do some posters think Ruff randomly changes lines without reason?

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Old
07-12-2012, 09:37 PM
  #26
SoFFacet
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I'm not going to lie, the only specific time I can remember any of this alleged period-to-period shuffling business last year was when he busted out Vanek-Roy-Pommer for the first time in the 3rd period against Montreal, which by the way worked really well. I didn't watch every game last season, but it says here that if he did juggle lines in game last season, it happened very infrequently.

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07-12-2012, 10:01 PM
  #27
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I don't care what anybody says, Ruff's even strength line management is absolutely exceptionally well timed and effective. He's upset me over the years with many moves, but ES he's usually correct.

People need to understand that the best lines on paper are never what's best for the team.

A hockey team is a living thing. Needs water and sunlight to grow.


Last edited by Play4Miracles*: 07-12-2012 at 10:44 PM.
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07-12-2012, 10:10 PM
  #28
Jame
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i was expecting some hardcore shift chart data analysis

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07-12-2012, 10:48 PM
  #29
Takeo
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Someone actually believes he changes lines simply randomly? I can't imagine this is true. And if actually posted, most likely out of frustration.

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07-13-2012, 12:31 AM
  #30
joshjull
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
Yeah, so you cite nothing, I cite nothing, and we both have different subjective perceptions. They don't keep stats on this stuff. I don't expect to convince you of something there isn't any recorded data on, but then again, I didn't make the thread calling out everyone whose opinion was different from mine. You're just as guilty of wanting to simply repeat something until it's true as I am. And if this thread goes for twenty pages, that's going to be the point of no resolution it keeps returning to.

I actual made this thread out of courtesy, crazy I know.

I started debating this topic in various threads but would stop after a bit because it was taking those threads off topic. So after a few weeks of debating it here and there in various threads. I decided to start this thread to keep the debate on the matter here so as to not derail others threads. Yet here you are lecturing me about my motives that you know nothing about.


As for your points, You can use shift chart analysis to show which coach shuffles his lines more than others or if Ruff is breaking up his lines every period in every game.

You can use this site and compare the games. http://www.timeonice.com/ Although it would be crazy to try and break down an entire seasons worth of games for every team to compare coaches to see who changes their lines more. I don't think either of us cares enough to be right to do that. At least I don't. But its certainly useful when comaparing line trends for the Sabres.

Just a FYI. the game number is the last 5 digits in the URL for a game's box score from NHL.com.

Here's the shift chart of our March 10th game -vs the Sens for a sample. It was Foligno's first game after getting called up.

http://www.timeonice.com/default.htm...1017&submit=Go


If you slide the various linemates bars together you can see Foligno/Ennis/Stafford were together that game. As were Leino/Hodgson/Pommer and Gerbe/Roy/Boyes. Vanek was out of the lineup with an upper body injury.


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There's not much discussion worth having in a thread that just challenges everybody to prove something that can neither be proven nor disproven. You just gotta accept and respect that people perceive the thing that's never been measured differently
Nope, thats not the case. I'm refering to the posters that have complained about Ruff's random line shuffling. Thats not everyone and I'm asking them what they are basing it on.

Btw you can actually prove one way or another if a line was broken up after a bad period or game. Just use the site I referenced earlier for the games in question.


Last edited by joshjull: 07-13-2012 at 02:51 AM.
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Old
07-13-2012, 12:52 AM
  #31
joshjull
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabresfansince1980 View Post
Yeah I guess I'll take next in line for Josh's @#$% session. A couple things first...



You folks do realize you can ignore threads and posters.

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1- I don't think Ruff breaks up lines when they are successful, only when they struggle or as a result of breaking up another line that's struggling, or from injury of course.
I see it the same

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2- Keeping pairs together is virtually impossible to avoid if a coach is going to keep any semblence of a logical line-up, given the usual top-two/bottom two set-up. So the fact that Ruff has kept pairs together doesn't say much to me.
Fair enough.

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I've watched about 90% of games since 2005-06 (when I got Center Ice). Prior to that I didn't get to watch games after 1997 due to leaving town. I started to view a penchant for line juggling around 2007. Since then my rough estimate of success rate is around 15%. That's how often I think a line change has worked. The other 85% seems like mostly no difference and sometimes a worse result.
If by 2007 you mean the 2007-2008 season, then I would agree with you. After the co-captians left we had two years of only one top 6 center (Roy) in the lineup for each of those seasons.

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For me, what I'd rather see is Ruff allowing players to stick together through slumps (not always, but more). I think the long-term benefit would be at least as beneficial as the rare short-term benefits that I've seen
I understand this desire and there have been times when I've wished it as well. But I also understand why he didn't during those years. His margins for error were pretty small with the drop off of talent after the captains left. He didn't really have the time to let unproven combos try to gel. I think thats also part of the reason why he plays Miller as much as he does.

There was also the issue of our weakness at center and the injuries there that impacted the lines. Awfully hard to put together a consistant 2nd line when Connolly missed half of each of the first two seasons after the co-captains left.

Quote:
I've made some references to Ruff's line changing around here, sometimes in a serious tone, sometimes joking, but not because I think he does it for no reason. Regardless, I can get annoyed with it if I want to, and even post about it too. Crazy I know, but I don't see much problem with it unless I start being an @#$ with people about it.
Who said you couldn't? I sure didn't.


Last edited by joshjull: 07-13-2012 at 02:04 AM.
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Old
07-13-2012, 06:45 AM
  #32
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My own occasional annoyance around Lindy's line changes are centered around the negative effects of shuffling lines frequently, not the cause that triggered them in the first place.

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07-13-2012, 08:26 AM
  #33
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I watch a lot of hockey. My own personal observations are that Lindy doesn't line juggle any more of less than other coaches. When people make that argument, I get annoyed, as I've yet to see any concrete evidence that it's true. I'm more than willing to admit that my observations are flawed if someone can prove it.

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07-13-2012, 08:31 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
I watch a lot of hockey. My own personal observations are that Lindy doesn't line juggle any more of less than other coaches. When people make that argument, I get annoyed, as I've yet to see any concrete evidence that it's true. I'm more than willing to admit that my observations are flawed if someone can prove it.
Every fanbase thinks that their coach is the one who changes the lines around too much. Silliness.

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07-13-2012, 09:16 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
If only this was actually how the debate was framed.


The following is not directed at you

I find it fascinating that there seems to be a collective amnesia by some or at the very least severe backtracking. I've read in multiple posts in multiple threads over the years with comments like.... "I like that line but we know one bad period and its gone" or "we all know Ruff doesn't keep lines together" or "Ruff likes to break up his lines and doesn't like to have set lines". None of which is true.

Many of his detractors put forth an imagine of a coach who is waiting for any excuse to break up his lines. That he doesn't keep set lines together. I know we all see these posts. Yet I'm, being told I'm imagining it.
I don't get into this argument a lot because it's not a part of the Ruff coaching portfolio that gets my feathers up one way or the other. I feel as though he juggles the lineup a lot but I don't follow any other team as much as this one so I don't know how true that actually is.

What does bother me, and it's been alluded to by others and yourself, is that when he finds a line that clicks but later cools, he seems to break it up fairly quickly. I don't know if that's actually true but it is my perception. It appears that line chemistry seems to be the driving force, sometimes the only force, in his line decisions. I don't want to understate chemistry, I think it's important, but it seems like that's what is important to Ruff and when/if it disappears he tries to shuffle lines to regain the hot combo. It makes me think of all the things Mike Mularkey tried to do to get momentum with the Bills (McDonalds' on the plane!!!). I jest, slightly.

Maybe it's just perception, I don't know. I think meshing playing styles is the most important aspect to setting your lineup but that's just my opinion. I guess I can boil it down to this: I wish he'd give struggling lines more of an opportunity to "play out of it" than he does. But Rob Paxon is right that the lines thing is more of a meme than anything else, IMO.

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Old
07-13-2012, 11:12 AM
  #36
WhoIsJimBob
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Play4Miracles View Post
Every fanbase thinks that their coach is the one who changes the lines around too much. Silliness.
Also, Ruff changes lines about as much as one of his primary coaching mentors: Scotty Bowman.

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07-13-2012, 11:16 AM
  #37
Andrej Shakira
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I can't recall an excessive amount of line changeups during last season. I can't think of any "random" line changes to break up successful line combos either. I do remember him doing it in the past generally when the team was struggling.

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Old
07-17-2012, 01:31 AM
  #38
struckbyaparkedcar
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The Ott/Roy thread got locked, so I figured this is the next most valid place for it, but let me get this straight:

1. Sabres' brass knew Roy was long-term-possibly-needing-surgery-injured for a significant part of, if not the whole season (what I gathered from that thread, if not, ignore rest of post).
2. Ruff continued to feed Roy minutes despite this. And not just the defensively-focused sort that he could still play at a relatively high level, the offensive kind that he clearly, over a 40 game stretch could not handle.
3. Vanek is one of two consistent scoring threats for the first 30-40 games. Still plays less at ES than hurt Roy halfway through the year.
4. Vanek gets hurt. Drops to seventh in forward ESTOI.

It's not so much that Ruff "changes forward lines for no reason" it's that what gets one player dumped from a line doesn't apply to another.

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07-17-2012, 03:18 AM
  #39
buffalowing88
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Count me among the few who think Ruff should mix lines up MORE often. Its not as if any line on his squads have justified being paired together for the extent of a season since 2007. The only regret I have is the overplayed note I refuse to let go of that a 3rd line of Max-TC-Kotalik should have posted monster stats had he not mixed grinders like Mair and Paille with them.

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