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Not too long ago we had "zero top 6 forwards"

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Old
07-17-2012, 09:30 AM
  #26
pooleboy
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Our holes are #1 center. And kuli is a top 6 he scored 30 goals a year ago.....

Hasn't this question been asked 10000000 times?

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07-17-2012, 09:34 AM
  #27
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Does it really matter?

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Old
07-17-2012, 09:34 AM
  #28
ULF_55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smoke meat pete View Post
We have a key hole at #1 center and probably don't have anyone within that can fill that spot. We have enough depth to acquire one if needed, although I think a good but not great center would be adequate with Lupul and Kessel.

Kulemin, JVR, MacA, Frattin and Grabs are all IMHO 2nd liners and Kadi and Colborne possible 2nd liners. It's possible one may be good enough to play 1st line one day, but not now.

A good, 1st line center moves everyone into a situation to help the team.

Lupul-____-Kess
JVR-Grabs-Frattin
Kulemin-Connolly-Kadri

Replace Connolly with Colborne mid-season. Move MacA, Bozak and Blacker for an upgrade on Bozak. Or put Bozak on the 3rd line instead of Connolly.
Once Burke adds the pieces he said he would I suspect we'll see a better line up.

I'd like to see something like this:

Lupul-NewPiece/Bozak-Kessel
Van Riemsdyk-Grabrovski-Connolly/New_Piece
Kulemin-Kadri-Frattin
3 of a billion 4th. liners under contract.

Kadri learns how to play center in the NHL on the 3rd. line protected by two fireplugs.

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Old
07-17-2012, 09:37 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Once Burke adds the pieces he said he would I suspect we'll see a better line up.

I'd like to see something like this:

Lupul-NewPiece/Bozak-Kessel
Van Riemsdyk-Grabrovski-Connolly/New_Piece
Kulemin-Kadri-Frattin
3 of a billion 4th. liners under contract.

Kadri learns how to play center in the NHL on the 3rd. line protected by two fireplugs.
I dont disagree, but we all know that 3rd line center role is Jay McClement's

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Old
07-17-2012, 09:50 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by pooleboy View Post
Our holes are #1 center. And kuli is a top 6 he scored 30 goals a year ago.....

Hasn't this question been asked 10000000 times?


Re: Kulemin

I think it's safe to say that the KGM line was born out of a situation where teams honed in on the Kessel line. That opened up more ice time for KGM. Fans were so impressed that they declared them our top line. Once Kessel and Lupul found some chemistry KGM lost their mojo, ice time, and proven worth. Kuli also stopped playing in the dirty areas, going to the net, and didn't recover pucks as well.

He seems like a marginal 2nd liner and a good third liner.

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07-17-2012, 09:52 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by ForSpareParts View Post
Re: Kulemin

I think it's safe to say that the KGM line was born out of a situation where teams honed in on the Kessel line. That opened up more ice time for KGM. Fans were so impressed that they declared them our top line. Once Kessel and Lupul found some chemistry KGM lost their mojo, ice time, and proven worth. Kuli also stopped playing in the dirty areas, going to the net, and didn't recover pucks as well.

He seems like a marginal 2nd liner and a good third liner.
I think Frattin and Kulemin had a competition for the King of Ping.

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Old
07-17-2012, 09:57 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForSpareParts View Post
Re: Kulemin

I think it's safe to say that the KGM line was born out of a situation where teams honed in on the Kessel line. That opened up more ice time for KGM. Fans were so impressed that they declared them our top line. Once Kessel and Lupul found some chemistry KGM lost their mojo, ice time, and proven worth. Kuli also stopped playing in the dirty areas, going to the net, and didn't recover pucks as well.

He seems like a marginal 2nd liner and a good third liner.
This may be true, but imo he can get back to being that 20+ goal scorer while being good defensivly. He had a rough year last year as it was widely reported.

Also everyone knew the kessel line was going to be our#1 line, it was just nice getting that kind of production and tbh I kind of expect 20-25-20 goals from that line again, on a consistant year to year basis

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07-17-2012, 09:58 AM
  #33
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If you look at the 2008 top prospects list... ones with legitimate top 6 forward potential were:

Kulemin
Tlusty
Grabo

Frattin at the time was a huge longshot.

Now we have:
Kadri
Colborne
Ashton
Frattin
Biggs
McKegg

Guys like Leivo, Ross, D'Amigo, etc are probably fairly comparable to guys like Stefanovich, Hayes, DiDomenico, etc in terms of top 6 potential.

So it looks better, but still no elite piece unless someone really really surprises.

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Old
07-17-2012, 10:01 AM
  #34
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Ultimately, I think we'd be doing really well if we could get Kulemin/Frattin on the wings on the third line as you suggested. Only problem being there, I don't know how long that'd fly with Kulemin, as I'm sure he'll be itching to get back to that 25-30 goal range after last season.

Wingers depth on top 3 lines?
Lupul/Kessel
JVR/Kadri?Mac?Trade?
Kulemin/Frattin

Looks good to me.

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Old
07-17-2012, 10:04 AM
  #35
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Having zero top 6 forwards is a good reason not to trade first round picks. I'll quit crying over spilled milk and just say that we have a ways to go yet. We'll have to hope Lupul keeps up his pace, that Grabo can find his scoring touch, that Kessel keeps doing his thing (this doesn't worry me), that JVR lives up to his potential, that Kadri can prove he belongs in the NHL and that Burke can find that elusive center and another winger somewhere/somehow.

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Old
07-17-2012, 10:08 AM
  #36
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I dont think finding another winger is a huge priority. We've got more than enough quality wingers to fill out 3 lines as it stands. Dealing with our goaltending situation and that 1C obviously have to be the priorities. If no more wingers are brought in (save for re-signing Kulemin of course), I'm good with that.

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Old
07-17-2012, 10:25 AM
  #37
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The big difference compared to what we had to what we have now is that Lupul, Grabo and Kessel could all be among the top 6 forwards on any team in terms of icetime.

JVR projects to be one as well and probably would have been this past season.

Guys like Connolly, Bozak and CMac wouldn't be. All of them are simply to easy to play against. At best I'd say they're borderline top 6ers but more like tweeners.

Kulemin to me is an awesome # 5 winger on the depth chart but only an okay # 3 or a good # 4 winger.

My hope by the end of the season is JVR establishes that he's a legitimate top 6er as well as Kadri which means we've got 5 of them and need one more top 6er and Kulemin is playing in his proper slot.

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Old
07-17-2012, 10:32 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
If you look at the 2008 top prospects list... ones with legitimate top 6 forward potential were:

Kulemin
Tlusty
Grabo

Frattin at the time was a huge longshot.

Now we have:
Kadri
Colborne
Ashton
Frattin
Biggs
McKegg

Guys like Leivo, Ross, D'Amigo, etc are probably fairly comparable to guys like Stefanovich, Hayes, DiDomenico, etc in terms of top 6 potential.

So it looks better, but still no elite piece unless someone really really surprises.
Biggs/Ashton don't project out to be top 6 frwds and Colborne/McKegg are longshots at this time . Kads has the talent for the top 6 and Frattin should at least be a 3rd liner with 2nd line up side .

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Old
07-17-2012, 12:04 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
Biggs/Ashton don't project out to be top 6 frwds and Colborne/McKegg are longshots at this time . Kads has the talent for the top 6 and Frattin should at least be a 3rd liner with 2nd line up side .
Realistic projections != potential. The point is that they have something that gives them a chance at becoming a top 6 player. How they progress along the way, that's still to be seen, but all of the prospects you listed have a chance at developing into a top 6 forward. I really hope Colborne has a good year, really need a prospect like him to develop well. Realistically I only see Kadri and Frattin becoming top 6 players, with a long shot from Biggs who I think has some serious work ethic and character, along with his size I think he'll play in the top 6 cause of the space he creates, riding shotgun to better players basically.

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Old
07-17-2012, 12:19 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Once Burke adds the pieces he said he would I suspect we'll see a better line up.

I'd like to see something like this:

Lupul-NewPiece/Bozak-Kessel
Van Riemsdyk-Grabrovski-Connolly/New_Piece
Kulemin-Kadri-Frattin
3 of a billion 4th. liners under contract.

Kadri learns how to play center in the NHL on the 3rd. line protected by two fireplugs.
I wouldn't be against that. I've said before Ross-Kadri-Biggs as a future 3rd line could be exciting. Kulemin and Frattin in the mean time is exciting too, although we'd probably have to expect Grabs line to take a number of the tough minutes. I wouldn't even have a problem moving Grabs for a #1 guy, have Kadri/Colborne/Bozak fight it out for #2-3C.

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Old
07-19-2012, 02:31 PM
  #41
T M L
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Originally Posted by ForSpareParts View Post
Edit:

Forgot to add Connolly
He is NOT a top 6 forward. Barely a bottom 6.

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07-19-2012, 03:01 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by T M L View Post
He is NOT a top 6 forward. Barely a bottom 6.
Where did the rest of his career go?

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Old
07-19-2012, 03:15 PM
  #43
T M L
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Originally Posted by ForSpareParts View Post
Where did the rest of his career go?
Who cares! The guy sucks. Looks like he does not even belong in the NHL.

Burke looks like a donkey paying him almost 10M for 2 years.

This is one of the examples of why Burke has failed in Toronto.

His so called top 6 is the worst in the NHL, its an embarrassment to the city of Toronto. No good prospects, nothing to look forward to but another bottom 5 finish.


Also, JVR has done nothing to prove he is a top 6 in the NHL. He was a bust in Philly and that is why he was traded.

The only real top 6 we have here is Kessel and that it is.

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Old
07-19-2012, 03:17 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by zoA View Post
Realistic projections != potential. The point is that they have something that gives them a chance at becoming a top 6 player. How they progress along the way, that's still to be seen, but all of the prospects you listed have a chance at developing into a top 6 forward. I really hope Colborne has a good year, really need a prospect like him to develop well. Realistically I only see Kadri and Frattin becoming top 6 players, with a long shot from Biggs who I think has some serious work ethic and character, along with his size I think he'll play in the top 6 cause of the space he creates, riding shotgun to better players basically.
Biggs seems like he could be a boom-or-bust Lucic-like player. He's worth holding onto, regardless, I feel because of the rarity.

I'm also hoping for big things from Colborne. If he could move his way up the depth chart, I'd love to see him center a line between Kessel and Lupul. He's not skilled enough to be projected as a #1 center, but his size and board work would open up the ice for those two - he just needs to be as good as Bozak has been. He's not the big #1 center we want, but perhaps the next best thing - a big #2. I don't see any #1 centers openly available, so we may as well try to develop internally, and load up on the wings.

Kadri would be nicely insulated on the third between a pair of checkers. Frattin should be a player utilized defensively and in a sheltering physical role for developing that third line as a whole, and maybe a vet. I'd like to see Kulemin there too, but he's a defensive workhorse on the second-line.

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Old
07-19-2012, 03:29 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
If you look at the 2008 top prospects list... ones with legitimate top 6 forward potential were:

Kulemin
Tlusty
Grabo

Frattin at the time was a huge longshot.

Now we have:
Kadri
Colborne
Ashton
Frattin
Biggs
McKegg

Guys like Leivo, Ross, D'Amigo, etc are probably fairly comparable to guys like Stefanovich, Hayes, DiDomenico, etc in terms of top 6 potential.

So it looks better, but still no elite piece unless someone really really surprises.
You're judging the 2008 prospects based on what actually happened, while judging the 2012 prospects with the typical leaf fan bias.

So when you judge 2008 without bias, but 2012 WITH bias... yes, of course things currently look much better.

But leafs fans in 2008 were probably saying things like Stalberg, Mitchell, Stefanovich, Hayes, Earl, etc were "VERY likely future top 6 forwards."

Of course, that looks completely ridiculous now... but never underestimate leaf fan bias when it comes to their prospects.

Four years from now, people will look at some of your current "probable top 6 forwards" list, and it will be seen as so ridiculous that it will probably go viral, internationally.

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07-19-2012, 03:33 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
You're judging the 2008 prospects based on what actually happened, while judging the 2012 prospects with the typical leaf fan bias.

So when you judge 2008 without bias, but 2012 WITH bias... yes, of course things currently look much better.

But leafs fans in 2008 were probably saying things like Stalberg, Mitchell, Stefanovich, Hayes, Earl, etc were "VERY likely future top 6 forwards."

Of course, that looks completely ridiculous now... but never underestimate leaf fan bias when it comes to their prospects.

Four years from now, people will look at some of your current "probable top 6 forwards" list, and it will be seen as so ridiculous that it will probably go viral, internationally.
So now on HFboards, real players are better than prospects, and "projected value" is not importan???? It is ridiculous to make it sound like leaf fans do this all the time, and others dont. I remember when LA fans were going to rue the day they traded MA cliche. Atlanta fans had bourret and Valabik..... its the way of these boards, and from what I remember, most of your posts.

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Old
07-19-2012, 03:51 PM
  #47
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Also, JVR has done nothing to prove he is a top 6 in the NHL. He was a bust in Philly and that is why he was traded.
In the 2010-2011 season JVR had 21 Goals 19 Assists 40 Points and in the Playoffs that year he had 7 Goals in 11 games, which got him a 6 year contract extension of $25.5 million.

This past season he had bad luck with all those injuries, however when healthy we all know what he can do.

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Old
07-19-2012, 04:55 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
In the 2010-2011 season JVR had 21 Goals 19 Assists 40 Points and in the Playoffs that year he had 7 Goals in 11 games, which got him a 6 year contract extension of $25.5 million.

This past season he had bad luck with all those injuries, however when healthy we all know what he can do.
I hope he scores 100 points this upcoming season in a Leafs uniform! Realistically I think fans will find out that he not that top 6 stud.

If he stays healthy he will be in a bottom 6 role.

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Old
07-19-2012, 06:10 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by T M L View Post
Who cares! The guy sucks. Looks like he does not even belong in the NHL.

Burke looks like a donkey paying him almost 10M for 2 years.

This is one of the examples of why Burke has failed in Toronto.

His so called top 6 is the worst in the NHL, its an embarrassment to the city of Toronto. No good prospects, nothing to look forward to but another bottom 5 finish.


Also, JVR has done nothing to prove he is a top 6 in the NHL. He was a bust in Philly and that is why he was traded.

The only real top 6 we have here is Kessel and that it is.
This is an example of why your posts fail.

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Old
07-19-2012, 06:34 PM
  #50
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If leafs cant get real number 1 center this would be my roster:
Kessel-kadri/jvr-lupul
Jvr/kadri-grabovski-new piece
Frattin/colborne-Mcclement-kulemin
Komarov-Steckel-Colborne/frattin

Trade Connolly-lombardy-macartur for new piece.. Well this aint happening.. But you can always hope

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