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Will Jean Ratelle ever have his # retired by the Rangers?

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Old
07-17-2012, 09:22 AM
  #51
chosen
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
Brad Park was an excellent excellent hockey player for the Rangers. I just don't think he was around long enough (7 seasons) to justify having his number retired by the organization. A similar situation is the Dodgers with Mike Piazza.
Graves was around long enough?

What is the correct amount of seasons?

If Park played today, fans would freak out about how great he is. The offense of Leetch combined with being one of the most physical players to ever don a Rangrrs uniform.

He was a guy who would go after Gordie Howe and fight anyone.

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07-17-2012, 09:37 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Graves was around long enough?

What is the correct amount of seasons?

If Park played today, fans would freak out about how great he is. The offense of Leetch combined with being one of the most physical players to ever don a Rangrrs uniform.

He was a guy who would go after Gordie Howe and fight anyone.
And his hip checks, the best ever, bar none, sent people flying!!!!

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07-17-2012, 09:38 AM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Graves was around long enough?

What is the correct amount of seasons?

If Park played today, fans would freak out about how great he is. The offense of Leetch combined with being one of the most physical players to ever don a Rangrrs uniform.

He was a guy who would go after Gordie Howe and fight anyone.
Certainly if the Rangers feel Graves is worthy, they should feel Park and Ratelle are worthy too.

It's my personal opinion that Graves doesn't belong up there. It's also my personal opinion that Park, who was excellent, wasn't around long enough to go up either. Certainly the bar was lowered by Graves, so I wouldn't be shocked at all to see Park go up.

As far as your question about "what is the correct number of seasons", I think a fixed # is unfair. If you're here for less than the bulk of your career, you better have set multiple franchise records and lead the team to a championship or two. Again, just my opinion.

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07-17-2012, 09:44 AM
  #54
bernmeister
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
Brad Park was an excellent excellent hockey player for the Rangers. I just don't think he was around long enough (7 seasons) to justify having his number retired by the organization. A similar situation is the Dodgers with Mike Piazza.
If a guy was around an extremely short number of seasons (say 2) and there were no extenuating circumstances (he did not pull a Roberto Clemente and get killed in a plane crash trying to help some people [or even a Thurman Munson and just get killed]) and he would have continued his Ranger career except for through no fault of his own, then while I am not saying there is reasonable doubt, I give him the benefit of whatever measure there is against such objection.

Park and Ratelle were cream of the crop and class acts, and they were traded!
And I advocate trades all the time, even fan favorite players.
But at least when I say let's part with Girardi, its {as part of a package} for somebody like Taylor Hall.

Forget Joe Zanussi. The stupidity of moving Ratelle + Park for Espo and Vadnais, 2 nice players but not at that price, is mind boggling.

I still haven't forgiven Cat Francis.

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07-17-2012, 09:57 AM
  #55
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Good points Bern.

On an aside, I'd like to comment on what a great topic this is. We don't discuss the history of the Rangers on this board enough.

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07-17-2012, 10:20 AM
  #56
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I was a season ticket holder in the blue seats from 1968-1976. He was a HOF player on the day he was traded to the Bruins. Any one who was a fan in those days who says he shouldn't have his number retired must have been watching a different game then me. In comparison, he was a much better center than Brad Richards. I'll never understand why his number was not retired except for some rumors of bad blood between him and the Rangers.

Park: yes
Hadfield: yes, its amazing how similar a player he was and how similar his career was to Graves
Lundqvist: even if he never played amother minute in Ranger blue, he belongs up there
Cally: on his way but not yet

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07-17-2012, 10:28 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by alkurtz View Post
I was a season ticket holder in the blue seats from 1968-1976. He was a HOF player on the day he was traded to the Bruins. Any one who was a fan in those days who says he shouldn't have his number retired must have been watching a different game then me. In comparison, he was a much better center than Brad Richards. I'll never understand why his number was not retired except for some rumors of bad blood between him and the Rangers.

Park: yes
Hadfield: yes, its amazing how similar a player he was and how similar his career was to Graves
Lundqvist: even if he never played amother minute in Ranger blue, he belongs up there
Cally: on his way but not yet
Agreed on all fronts.

Ratelle - Yes
Park - Yes
Graves - Yes

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07-17-2012, 10:30 AM
  #58
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As I stated in this post before I had no problem with trading Ratelle and Park when they did for Espo and Vadnais. Statistically Boston got the better of the trade but I was convinced that the Emile Francis Rangers had missed their chance to win the Cup. The killer was trading Rick Middleton who was the Rangers top prospect at the time for Ken Hodge the next season. Hodge actually played well for the Rangers in the first season but he was shot and was waived in his second season. Middleton started slow but then put together 5-6 seasons in which he was one of the top players in the league and always killed the Rangers. Despite all this Espo led the Rangers in scoring every year he was with the Rangers and led them to the Finals in 1979 and captured the city that spring. As good as Ratelle was and moreso Park it was in the opinion of most that they didn,t have the personality to win in New York as the city was looking for a star (Espo) to lead the young nucleus going forward. If Middleton was not traded for Hodge they might have put it all together. This is one of those trades that cannot be looked at years later by stats alone. Boston got the statistical better end of the trade(due to Park not Ratelle) but Espo was what this team needed because of the dominance of the Flyers followed by the Canadiens then the Islanders 3 of the all time best teams in hockey history. Anyone who remembers the 1979 run will remember the excitement the Rangers bought to New York. I think the 1979 team is very underated in Rangers history. Just my opinion to a great thread and I love talking Rangers Hockey from the 70,s.

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07-17-2012, 10:53 AM
  #59
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I don't deny that there are guys who deserve to be up there, but to me that doesn't necessarily diminish my belief that the numbers we have up there are deserving.

I think the real difference in opinion comes down to whether one believes a number being retired is for the truly elite, or whether it can also include guys who were very good, but who tended to show up more than just on the stat sheet.

Personally, I tend to fall into the latter category.

I am cool with people not necessarily buying into that notion, but it is rather disheartening when people throw words around like "cheapens" or "destroys." Even if you don't believe a guy like Graves belongs to have his number retired, I think he deserves better comments than that.

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07-17-2012, 11:35 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Bickel41 View Post
As I stated in this post before I had no problem with trading Ratelle and Park when they did for Espo and Vadnais. Statistically Boston got the better of the trade but I was convinced that the Emile Francis Rangers had missed their chance to win the Cup. The killer was trading Rick Middleton who was the Rangers top prospect at the time for Ken Hodge the next season. Hodge actually played well for the Rangers in the first season but he was shot and was waived in his second season. Middleton started slow but then put together 5-6 seasons in which he was one of the top players in the league and always killed the Rangers. Despite all this Espo led the Rangers in scoring every year he was with the Rangers and led them to the Finals in 1979 and captured the city that spring. As good as Ratelle was and moreso Park it was in the opinion of most that they didn,t have the personality to win in New York as the city was looking for a star (Espo) to lead the young nucleus going forward. If Middleton was not traded for Hodge they might have put it all together. This is one of those trades that cannot be looked at years later by stats alone. Boston got the statistical better end of the trade(due to Park not Ratelle) but Espo was what this team needed because of the dominance of the Flyers followed by the Canadiens then the Islanders 3 of the all time best teams in hockey history. Anyone who remembers the 1979 run will remember the excitement the Rangers bought to New York. I think the 1979 team is very underated in Rangers history. Just my opinion to a great thread and I love talking Rangers Hockey from the 70,s.
Respect your right to a different opinion.
I didn't like the Middleton for Hodge move, but that was IMO putting gas on an existing fire, not the igniting fire itself.

Park + Ratelle was the result of only one thing: Cat Francis wanted to shake up the team, and show he was the authority in charge. It was not a pure hockey move. That they so disgracefully peddled Giacomin to Detroit is another such example, even if Eddie was starting to lose it a bit, he still had something in the tank; even if you move on as you eventually have to, this was not the way to push EG out the door so forcefully.

The bottom line I have always held, so people understand I have my shortcomings, but I like to think being a hypocrite is not one of them.

There should be no sacred cows. Players should be moved for the good of the team. That said, you don't trade coke for pepsi. If, for example, Callahan were moved I would ordinarily want an overpayment for him not just on his skill and production, but on the intangibles he brings.

I would have considered a megadeal for Orr, to pair him with Park. That would be preferable, although unfortunately that could have cost, literally, half the team.

I could also see a deal for Espo, even though I consider him hugely overrated, good at what he did, but always just that putaway from off the crease, excelling at that, and not bringing much else to the party. But again, either Park or Ratelle alone were WAY too much for him, let alone both.

Unfortunately, because you, Cat Francis, had to feel important, we got screwed.

We should be grateful for the existence of HFB, which at least allows us to present the competition of ideas, which we hope can at least have the possibility of not having such mistakes repeated, by calling spot light on them before they are brought from theory to actuality.

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07-17-2012, 11:43 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Ruotsalainen29 View Post
Where do you get that idea from? The idea that for a player's number to be retired, he would have to have been elite or HHOF caliber is only an opinion of some fans.

For example, here's just a few players who have had their jerseys numbers retired yet were not considered elite or HHOF caliber:

Barry Ashbee - Flyers
Rod Brind'Amour - Canes
Ken Daneyko - Devils
Clark Gillies - Isles
Bobby Nystrom - Isles
Dale Hunter - Caps
Keith Magnuson - Blackhawks
Teppo Numminen - Coyotes
Terry O'Reilly - Bruins

The idea that a player had to have reached a certain level to have his # retired is strictly SOME fans opinion only and there is not any standard to receive this honor as evidenced throughout the history of the league.
All better players than Graves/or franchise had limited success.

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07-17-2012, 11:44 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
Good points Bern.

On an aside, I'd like to comment on what a great topic this is. We don't discuss the history of the Rangers on this board enough.
Thanks Crease.

Share your view about these trips dcwn memory lane.

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07-17-2012, 11:47 AM
  #63
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Just a comparison post trade for fun. Both played 6 seasons after the trade.


JR. 155 goals. 295 assists. 450 pts.

Espo. 184 goals. 220 assists. 404 pts.

Playoffs

JR. 23 goals 33 assists in 6 seasons

Espo 11 goals. 16 assists in 3 seasons

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07-17-2012, 12:00 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Edge View Post
I don't deny that there are guys who deserve to be up there, but to me that doesn't necessarily diminish my belief that the numbers we have up there are deserving.

I think the real difference in opinion comes down to whether one believes a number being retired is for the truly elite, or whether it can also include guys who were very good, but who tended to show up more than just on the stat sheet.

Personally, I tend to fall into the latter category.

I am cool with people not necessarily buying into that notion, but it is rather disheartening when people throw words around like "cheapens" or "destroys." Even if you don't believe a guy like Graves belongs to have his number retired, I think he deserves better comments than that.
No surprise that I disagree. I feel the rafters have been cheapened but it is a symptom of a larger problem.

We have become a society that loves to bestow honors on our own.

We give out awards for everything. On TV it seems like every week there is some awards show.

We used to reserve rewards for greatness. Now it is for the very good and or the popular.

The baseball hof has allowed Mazeroski, among others in.

MSG went nuts because of the Cup. Kovalev was as important as Graves for that Cup. Should we put him up there?

In little league everyone gets a trophy


Last edited by chosen: 07-17-2012 at 12:06 PM.
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07-17-2012, 12:03 PM
  #65
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No surprise that I disagree. I feel the rafters have been cheapened but it is a symptom of a larger problem.

We have bevome a society that loves to bestow honors on our own.


In little league everyone gets a trophy
That and $$$. Every year, it seems, teams pump out a new uniform. So much for continuity and tradition...

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07-17-2012, 12:19 PM
  #66
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That and $$$. Every year, it seems, teams pump out a new uniform. So much for continuity and tradition...
Thats what gets me more than anything. For 75 years as a franchise, the Rangers retired 2 numbers. 2!!! In the last 11 years? 5 players have gone up. 1 of which doesnt deserve to be up there, and 2 others that should feel slighted that the organization waited so long. Theres no consistency whatsoever nowadays.

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07-17-2012, 12:33 PM
  #67
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I am going weigh in here, mostly because I am old enough to have seen Ratelle and Park play in New York. In my humble opinion, both should have their numbers retired. Park was the heart of the defense during the time he was a Ranger (seven + seasons). He was a spectacular defenseman--could do it all, including putting an opponent through the boards--and anyone who saw him at MSG would not question his ability or value to the Rangers during that time.

BTW, he played seven plus seasons in NY and 10 elsewhere. Messier played 10 seasons in New York and 15 NHL seasons elsewhere. In other words, close to the same percentage of their careers in an NYR uniform.

Ratelle was an amazing center. From 1967 until the trade, he was incredible during the regular season; not quite as good during the playoffs, but I always felt that he was in his prime and would have gotten even better had he not been traded.

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07-17-2012, 01:17 PM
  #68
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Park would have been the best defense man of all time except for Orr. His number should be in the rafters somewhere. Ratelle was my second favorite 70s Ranger next to Gilbert. The GAG line should have been put up all together. Here is just their 1971-72 stats. I believe Ratelle broke his ankle and only played about 64 games.

Scoring leaders
Jean Ratelle New York Rangers 46 63 109
Vic Hadfield New York Rangers 50 56 106
Rod Gilbert New York Rangers 43 54 97

Would you be happy with this production out of our first line next year???

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07-17-2012, 01:19 PM
  #69
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I should add I too am old enough to have seen them at the Garden.

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07-17-2012, 01:37 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
No surprise that I disagree. I feel the rafters have been cheapened but it is a symptom of a larger problem.

We have become a society that loves to bestow honors on our own.

We give out awards for everything. On TV it seems like every week there is some awards show.

We used to reserve rewards for greatness. Now it is for the very good and or the popular.

The baseball hof has allowed Mazeroski, among others in.

MSG went nuts because of the Cup. Kovalev was as important as Graves for that Cup. Should we put him up there?

In little league everyone gets a trophy
I actually don't diagree with the vast majority of what you are saying. In fact, I applaud it.

But we are not talking about the Hall of Fame, or getting a trophy for just showing up, or a guy who was an average player for a few years.

You're right, we do give out awards to people who don't deserve them. But I'm not particularly interested in analyzing the social malpractices of society at this time. I'm more interested in a player who average nearly 30 goals per full season over his decade with the team, did everything his team asked him to do, helped lead his team, set the single season goal scoring record, gave his time at an unprecedented level to the community, impacted literally thousands of lives of at-risk youth, and literally endeared himself to every teammate, broadcaster, staff member, etc. he came in contact with.

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07-17-2012, 01:38 PM
  #71
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I just love this thread! Imagine if the Rangers or any team for that matter pulled of a trade like this today. Basically 2 HOFERS (one on the upside and the other winding down but both still in their prime) for at the time was basically the biggest name in hockey. Initially fans in New York were kind of mixed but Boston fans were disapointed and took a few years to warm up to Park and Ratelle. I don,t think this trade could be made today. Emile Francis gets bashed and rightfully so but he in the HOF. I think all the dynamics of this trade and the other moves made(Giacomin,Middleton etc) make this one of the most interesting moves made in NHL history but it brought neither team the Cup!
Having watched all the parties involved I think Ratelle should have his number retired and I am on the fence about Park but behind Leetch is by far the best Dman the Rangers have ever had.
Ironically both Superstars played in the shadow of Rod Gilbert. Gilbert, Ratelle,Park,Giacomin on one team and no cup! Wow has Hockey changed.

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07-17-2012, 02:05 PM
  #72
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And I can still hear Dale Rolfe's slapshot from the left point clang off of Ratelle's ankle late in the 72 season. I can still see him limping off with a broken ankle. At that point Ratelle was running neck and neck with Espo for the scoring lead and we were pushing the Bruins for first place.

W/O Ratelle we still made it to the Cup finals and he did retutn for that last series but was clearly not the same. I've always felt that, with a healthy Ratelle, we might have won the Cup that year when the great Francis team was at its peak.

That broken ankle was part of the curse exorcized in 94. As a Ranger fan for over fifty years, I will never, ever, ever tire of 94.

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07-17-2012, 03:09 PM
  #73
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All better players than Graves/or franchise had limited success.
You really don't know what your talking about. There is NO WAY that Bobby Nystrom was a better hockey player than Adam Graves and the Isles won 4 cups in a row so they had real franchise success.

Besides, the question wasn't if Graves was better. YOU said elite or HHOF caliber and NONE of those guys listed fall under your supposed rationale.

I just blew a huge hole in your criteria that you think most NHL teams use to retire jersey #s. Besides, that was only a small list as there are plenty of others who also aren't elite or HHOF worthy yet have their numbers retired. Sorry but what you use as a criteria is NOT what most NHL clubs use.

Try again, kiddo.

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07-17-2012, 04:05 PM
  #74
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You really don't know what your talking about. There is NO WAY that Bobby Nystrom was a better hockey player than Adam Graves and the Isles won 4 cups in a row so they had real franchise success.

Besides, the question wasn't if Graves was better. YOU said elite or HHOF caliber and NONE of those guys listed fall under your supposed rationale.

I just blew a huge hole in your criteria that you think most NHL teams use to retire jersey #s. Besides, that was only a small list as there are plenty of others who also aren't elite or HHOF worthy yet have their numbers retired. Sorry but what you use as a criteria is NOT what most NHL clubs use.

Try again, kiddo.
Graves is no sure selection over Nystrom. It's an arguable point. Not sure who I would have taken.

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07-17-2012, 05:51 PM
  #75
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And I can still hear Dale Rolfe's slapshot from the left point clang off of Ratelle's ankle late in the 72 season. I can still see him limping off with a broken ankle. At that point Ratelle was running neck and neck with Espo for the scoring lead and we were pushing the Bruins for first place.

W/O Ratelle we still made it to the Cup finals and he did retutn for that last series but was clearly not the same. I've always felt that, with a healthy Ratelle, we might have won the Cup that year when the great Francis team was at its peak.

That broken ankle was part of the curse exorcized in 94. As a Ranger fan for over fifty years, I will never, ever, ever tire of 94.
Well said. So glad the curse was exorcized but wouldn't have it been great if those 70s Rangers won a Cup also. Off the top of my head (not all on the 71-72 team but close) Bobby Rousseau, Chief Neilson, Fairburn, Stemmer, Walt Tkaczuk, one of my favs Ted Irvine, a year later Vickers and even Slats. Oh memory lane.

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