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2012-13 is a transition year. Bergevin is focusing on 2013-14.

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Old
07-17-2012, 09:10 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by 2 Chainz View Post
I might be one of the only few but even with the roster we have right now I think our team won't struggle like many suggest and won't be surprised if we make the playoffs.

- Our top 6 wingers right now are better than what we had when we made the playoffs the last two years, we have 2 guys who scored 30 goals last year and Gionta & Bourque both were close to 30 goals the two seasons before last year
- If Markov stays healthy our D will be a hell of a lot better, young guys like Subban, Diaz and Emelin will also likely continue to improve from last year
- Our bottom six is significantly improved and guys like Moen and Prust will help reduce Plekanec's penalty kill minutes
- New coaches and Markov back will likely improve our PP
- We have one of the best goalies in the world who kept us in most of our games last year

Not saying we have a great team or anything but I see us being closer to a playoff team than a lottery team.
If Price plays like 09-10 we should make the playoffs.
If he plays like last year, we won't. Not that he was horrible last year, but he wasn't great either and the habs will need a great goaltending performance to make the playoffs.

All in all, it's like most seasons in Montreal :
-Not gonna be a top team
-Our chances of making the playoffs are entirely reliant on how well the goalie plays.

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Old
07-17-2012, 09:12 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Partisan du CH View Post
And since we're talking about 2013-14, I think we could then have this kind of starting line-up :

Pacioretty - Desharnais - Cole
Gallagher - Plekanec - Gionta
Leblanc - Eller - Prust
Moen - Galchenyuk - Bournival

Ex : White, Dumont

I really, really, really love how this looks. That's a pretty strong center line. There's a very good mix of youth and experience, grit and finesse, offensive talent and 2-way players, etc. (also 4 Quebecers!)

Gorges - Subban
Markov - Emelin
Beaulieu - Diaz

Ex : Tinordi

Of course, that's if we are able to get rid of Gomez, Bourque and Kaberle. At worst, it will be cheaper next summer to buy out Gomez and Kaberle. Bourque could also be kept on the team if he gets a good season in 2012-13.

That might not be a very competitive team already in 2013-14, so I understand why some people say it will be a transition year again. But I think we will finally have the core of what the future Habs team will be.
Collberg? Forgot something?

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Old
07-17-2012, 09:25 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
Collberg? Forgot something?
Not a bad option if a lottery pick is the goal.

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07-17-2012, 09:36 AM
  #79
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I hope he cleans house.

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07-17-2012, 09:38 AM
  #80
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Not a bad option if a lottery pick is the goal.
I meant in place of Gallagher. No diff, possibly much much better.

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07-17-2012, 09:51 AM
  #81
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I want us to tank hard this year and pick in the top 3 again

Then we'll have one hell of a young team!

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07-17-2012, 10:03 AM
  #82
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I find the idea of tanking a second year in a row disgusting.

Especially if we plan it before the damn season even begins!!!

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Old
07-17-2012, 10:09 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
I find the idea of tanking a second year in a row disgusting.

Especially if we plan it before the damn season even begins!!!
If injuries lead us down that path again, so be it, but there will be no tanking, the organization wants the playoffs...

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07-17-2012, 10:12 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
I find the idea of tanking a second year in a row disgusting.

Especially if we plan it before the damn season even begins!!!
I share your sentiments. Like you, I choose not to be a cynic. However, the Habs might finish out of the playoffs in 2013 despite their best efforts, in which case the tankards would cackle with glee. Judging from my reaction to the recently concluded playoffs I couldn't be happy to see the same East teams repeat their appearance.

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07-17-2012, 10:16 AM
  #85
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If injuries lead us down that path again, so be it, but there will be no tanking, the organization wants the playoffs...
Dont take me wrong. If we are 2nd to last place comes February, then tank away.

But how about having a bit of damn pride and not curling up and let ourselves be beaten at first, eh?!?

How about not having a ****ing loser mentalty and throw your hand up just because we don't have ZE PERFECT TEEM?!

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Old
07-17-2012, 10:39 AM
  #86
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Michel Therrien is a transition coach so clearly this is what Bergevin intends to do.

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Old
07-17-2012, 11:15 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
You went through all this to repost the exact same drivel.

I know it's such a sweetheart deal, I'm sure molson is chomping at the bit to buyout Gomez and kaberle to free up cap space for his 27 th place team, illogical? It's not like it's a free pass, the cap space becomes available, but you still have to buy the players out, there's a substantial cost there, either rate, you can go on and on and call people ignorant, it isn't happening, it's a slightly better option than a demotion, but neither are happening.

If the cap rolls back to 60m so will the salaries, there will be no move required by us.

We were 27th last year, say it out loud, 27th. The last thing molson is going to do is spend 11-12m in buyouts.

You can face reality or not, it's entirely up to you.
28th actually, but who's counting. Despite what you might think its largely irrelevant to what we're discussion.

Wealthy teams spend money to put themselves in a better cap position if its a reasonable thing to do, Chicago, Toronto and New York have all done it and Montreal is just as wealthy as any of those orgs.

But beyond that lets walk through the bizarre land of habsfanatic logic.

Molson isn't going to spend more money on a 28th place team. Therefore he elects to spend even more money than he has to on existing contracts rather than buying them out for likely 1/3rd of the value remaining (both two years remaining, compliance buyout last time was 2/3rd of one year -> 1/3rd of remaining contract). They have to pay some of this money anyway, in a buyout situation they can spend significantly less. If they are cheap its better, if they are willing to spend to help the team its also better.

The only way its not better is if they very much want these guys player for them for the next two seasons.

You are basically positing that the Montreal ownership are complete morons, who want to spend even more money than they would have to under this hypothetical because they don't want to spend money. The only reason they wouldn't is if they had difficulty coming up with the money upfront, manifestly not the case for a team as profitable as Montreal.

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Old
07-17-2012, 12:38 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
I find the idea of tanking a second year in a row disgusting.

Especially if we plan it before the damn season even begins!!!
Tanking is much more pleasing than trading prospects, picks ands young players (our only valuable assets) for immediate help. Bergevin is overhauling management. He will overhaul the team once the CBA is established and when the contracts run their course. I'll cry if we do trades like Gallagher + 2nd for Moore/Metropolit/Smolinski/Johnson/Bonk/whoever is today's available aging 3rd liner.

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Old
07-17-2012, 12:47 PM
  #89
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I think he's just going with what he has, and adding strength in the lower line depth so far...

By all rights, we should have at minimum, 5 top 6 spots used up prior to camp. Plek's line LW is the only position open IMO.

Our failure was much of the disinclusion of the bottom 6 last year... They kept giving them away for nothing for a while there (Chipchura, Lapierre, et al)...

The bottom 6 IMO there was a gaping hole heading in to the season...

It was a one year gap in Hamilton as well, as this offseason, a whackload of good prospects are headed there.

Last year, the problem was, with injuries and a thin line up, we were swiss cheese at times through out the year.

I believe because of this, Bergevin is literally just beefing up the line up.
We needed to get tougher,
keeping Moen while deleting Darche, adding Prust, and Armstrong, gives us some talented depth pencilled for a bottom 6 role.

Patches - DD - Cole
2 30 goal guys, with all 3 touching 60 points... not bad.

Bourque/Gomez - Plekanec - Gionta
Pleks can take a bit of a reduced role, focused more on offence, give him the shooting Gio, and whichever works better between Bourque & Gomez...

Moen - Eller - Armstrong/Bourque
Eller & Moen have shown some chemistry... Either one of Armstrong or Bourque should play out here...

Prust - Nokelainen - White/Armstrong

The 13th forward, is the one without a role at the beginning of the season IMO...

Hamilton has much stronger depth now, and all lines are reasonably covered IMO...

On defence, by him sitting on that one extra d-man, makes me believe he is trying to make the climb for the 3 d prospects a little more difficult.

Subban, Markov, Kaberle, <--Offensive minded d-men,

Emelin, Gorges, Bouillon <-- Defensive minded d-men

Diaz & Weber



Goaltending we're pretty strong already...

We had such a small goals for/against differential last season... IMO we are easily a team that COULD turn around just based on what we already have here... Sometimes, a change of organizational philosophy is needed...

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Old
07-17-2012, 01:32 PM
  #90
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2012-13


I don't think that Marc bergevin will move until the camp unless he has a big offer who can upgrade our team ... wich is not on radar ! So here is a team who can be the starter at game 1 in October with no rookie as Galchenyuk Leblanc or Gallagher who will spend the entire next season in the minor to build confidence and skill set ! This is what I would do with them for a real transition.

Having


**(Correct this part if I'm wrong)**


Leblanc Bournival Gallagher
Palushaj Desimone Quailer
Geoffrion Nattinen Holland
Berger Dumont Schultz
Avtsin

Nash St-Denis
Tinordi Ellis
Beaulieu Pateryn
??? ???

Desjardins
Delmas

will create a good core in the Farm and give a great team


FOWARDS
__________________________________________________

13 FOWARDS : [35.633] 14 FOWARDS : [36.178] (Blunden)
__________________________________________________

1st line : [6.975]

Pacioretty - Deharnais - Cole
(6f01 203lbs) - (5f07 177lbs) - (6f02 205lbs)
[1.625] - [0.850] - [4.500]

2nd line : [13.333]

Bourque - Plekanec - Gionta
(6f02 211lbs) - (5f10 189lbs) - (5f07 173lbs)
[3.333] - [5.000] - [5.000]

3rd line : [5.675]

Prust - Eller - Moen
(6f00 192lbs) - (6f02 198lbs) - (6f02 215lbs)
[2.500] - [1.325] - [1.850]

4th line : [9.045]

White - Gomez - Armstrong
(6f00 193lbs) - (5f11 198lbs) - (6f02 195lbs)
[0.688] - [7.357] - [1.000]


Extra : [0.575]

Nokelainen
(6f01 202lbs)
[0.575]

---------------------------------------------------------------

DEFENCEMEN
__________________________________________________

7 DEFENCEMEN : [19.475] + SUBBAN : [?.???] ***
__________________________________________________


1st pair : [3.900]

Gorges - Subban
(6f01 200lbs) - (6f00 206lbs)
[3.900] - [X.XXX]

2nd pair : [6.975]

Markov - Diaz
(6f00 207lbs) - (5f11 194lbs)
[5.750] - [1.225]

3rd pair : [6.250]

Emelin - Kaberle
(6f02 223lbs) - (6f01 214lbs)
[2.000] - [4.250]


Extra : [2.350]

Bouillon - Weber
(5f08 198lbs) - (5f11 193lbs)
[1.500] - [0.850]

---------------------------------------------------------------

***

Is Byfuglien contract being an ideal deal for Subban ? [4.250 + 4.250 + 5.750 + 5.750 + 6.000] / [5.200] for 5 years


---------------------------------------------------------------

GOALIES
__________________________________________________

2 GOALIES: [7.650]
__________________________________________________

Starter : [6.500]

Price
(6f03 219lbs)

Back up : [1.150]

Budaj
(6f01 200lbs)

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Old
07-17-2012, 03:45 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
28th actually, but who's counting. Despite what you might think its largely irrelevant to what we're discussion.

Wealthy teams spend money to put themselves in a better cap position if its a reasonable thing to do, Chicago, Toronto and New York have all done it and Montreal is just as wealthy as any of those orgs.

But beyond that lets walk through the bizarre land of habsfanatic logic.

Molson isn't going to spend more money on a 28th place team. Therefore he elects to spend even more money than he has to on existing contracts rather than buying them out for likely 1/3rd of the value remaining (both two years remaining, compliance buyout last time was 2/3rd of one year -> 1/3rd of remaining contract). They have to pay some of this money anyway, in a buyout situation they can spend significantly less. If they are cheap its better, if they are willing to spend to help the team its also better.

The only way its not better is if they very much want these guys player for them for the next two seasons.

You are basically positing that the Montreal ownership are complete morons, who want to spend even more money than they would have to under this hypothetical because they don't want to spend money. The only reason they wouldn't is if they had difficulty coming up with the money upfront, manifestly not the case for a team as profitable as Montreal.
You've actually just completely changed the conversation. This is my last post on this topic. I was discussing this in the context of a transition year. Everyone is talking about buying out players to acquire something else with the money. This saves Molson money and makes managment look like complete morons, does it?
really? You have gradually soften your stance to buying them out and holding onto the cap space. Noone was ever discussing this and this does nothing to make Montreal better. The only reasonable reason to buyout both Gomez/kaberle is to improve the team. Doing this doesn't improve the team.

They can still be bought out next year, there is no hurry for this, unless the only reason is to save money and hoard empty cap space, but this was never the discussion, I think you know this.

I don't want to speculate about amnesty buyouts that may not happen, or the %'s involved. Last time was last time. The situation is different, everyone is operating under the same cap this time, not only is it unlikely that a buyout will be needed, it's not even close to being set. The rollbacks in salary will likely cover the cap 100%.


You basically been arguing about something that has a very good chance of not even being a possibility. Your reply to me the first time was the first time you mentioned not spending the money saved. This could be an option, I agree, but it was never what we were talknig about, so I apologize if we were arguing without understanding each others view. I was using the context of this thread, a transition year, meaning the habs won't be big spenders ect, especially since they are already at the cap pretty well.

I think buying them out and saving capspace is also unlikely to happen.

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Old
07-17-2012, 04:20 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
I share your sentiments. Like you, I choose not to be a cynic. However, the Habs might finish out of the playoffs in 2013 despite their best efforts, in which case the tankards would cackle with glee. Judging from my reaction to the recently concluded playoffs I couldn't be happy to see the same East teams repeat their appearance.
Not sure who is cackling but if some people believe that part of the way to the top comes from the bounce off striking the bottom I am sure that's a valid opinion.

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07-17-2012, 05:19 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by SeriousHabs View Post
Tanking is much more pleasing than trading prospects, picks ands young players (our only valuable assets) for immediate help. Bergevin is overhauling management. He will overhaul the team once the CBA is established and when the contracts run their course. I'll cry if we do trades like Gallagher + 2nd for Moore/Metropolit/Smolinski/Johnson/Bonk/whoever is today's available aging 3rd liner.
Tanking and playoffs can't coexist but what if the high draft picks aren't good enough for two, three, or four years? Then we have the worst of all possible worlds. I'm too old to be comfortable with that. My memories of having seen well over a dozen Hab Cup wins years ago would wear thin.

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07-17-2012, 08:04 PM
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Imagine if the habs would really suck next season and win the lottery. You would had a pretty dam good line of rookies.

Galchenyuk - MacKinnon - Gallagher
Pacioretty - DD/Pleks - Cole
Bourque - Eller - Leblanc
Prust - White - Moen

We would have to trade either Pleks, DD or Eller which would be used to get a good draft pick or could be used to dumb Kaberle if his 12-13 is really crap

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Old
07-18-2012, 05:03 AM
  #95
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I really don't see this as a transition year, as the core of a team that went to the conference final 3 years ago, and was knocked out by a single goal, missing their best forward, unfortunately, by the eventual Stanley Cup champs two years ago, remains largely intact. I think there is a difference in mentality and personally I am elated that Martin's pacifism is gone, and Therien has some grit at his disposal. Bergevin is making the adjustments that should have been addressed following the playoff loss to the Bruins...He has some work to do still, I expect Kaberle will be moved before opening day, with so much uncertainty with the CBA and the salary cap, he can't be moved until there is a need for him. The youngsters might push Gomez and Bourque out of the job, they might push these guys to play better too. Competition is the best motivator on any hockey team. At least there are some young players knocking on the door this year, last season's lack of quality depth was embarrassing. Prospects such as Jared Tinordi and Brendan Gallagher have real potential to be significant players, the time frame is simply unknown. Could be this year. I expect Leblanc and Dumont will both play well for Therien this year when the opportunity is given to them. We have the toughness to stand up to the Bruins, the team we need to beat, maybe needing only a real solid defenseman (Tinordi?) to clear the crease in front of our goalie, who is knocking on the door of stardom. We have a coaching staff who will bring passion to the rink. I don't know how a coach who went to the SCF and made an admirable playoff run in his first stint, only to be sabotaged by the Bruins (McLaren) and bad management the folowing year (remember Asham for Czerkawski, trading toughness for softness). It is conceivable that Gomez, Kaberle, Gionta, Bourque, Nokelainen will eventually be replaced by Galchenyuk, Tinordi, Gallagher, Leblanc, and Dumont, but every team undergoes a natural evolution within its core. We have some very good building blocks, both in our veterans and our youth. I like our chances this year for a strong rebound, playoff season.


Last edited by voyageur: 07-18-2012 at 05:09 AM.
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07-18-2012, 07:22 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
28th actually, but who's counting. Despite what you might think its largely irrelevant to what we're discussion.

Wealthy teams spend money to put themselves in a better cap position if its a reasonable thing to do, Chicago, Toronto and New York have all done it and Montreal is just as wealthy as any of those orgs.

But beyond that lets walk through the bizarre land of habsfanatic logic.

Molson isn't going to spend more money on a 28th place team. Therefore he elects to spend even more money than he has to on existing contracts rather than buying them out for likely 1/3rd of the value remaining (both two years remaining, compliance buyout last time was 2/3rd of one year -> 1/3rd of remaining contract). They have to pay some of this money anyway, in a buyout situation they can spend significantly less. If they are cheap its better, if they are willing to spend to help the team its also better.

The only way its not better is if they very much want these guys player for them for the next two seasons.

You are basically positing that the Montreal ownership are complete morons, who want to spend even more money than they would have to under this hypothetical because they don't want to spend money. The only reason they wouldn't is if they had difficulty coming up with the money upfront, manifestly not the case for a team as profitable as Montreal.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but a buyout lowers the cap hit the player has on the team, but he's still owed 100% of the money on the contract. There's no money saved from such a move. Buy outs are reserved for extreme cases, which the Canadiens are not facing right now. There's not really any players in the UFA pool to spend that kind of money on that are worth it anyway. So just keep Gomez--who can still play decent hockey, albeit not $7.35M worth of hockey--and make best use of him. Then reassess his situation next season when he'll only be owed one year of salary.

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07-18-2012, 09:04 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Tanking and playoffs can't coexist but what if the high draft picks aren't good enough for two, three, or four years? Then we have the worst of all possible worlds. I'm too old to be comfortable with that. My memories of having seen well over a dozen Hab Cup wins years ago would wear thin.
Go revisit the last 40 drafts, and tell me how many times the first round picks didn't produce talent above 3rd line plugs.

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07-18-2012, 09:06 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Gabe84 View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but a buyout lowers the cap hit the player has on the team, but he's still owed 100% of the money on the contract. There's no money saved from such a move. Buy outs are reserved for extreme cases, which the Canadiens are not facing right now. There's not really any players in the UFA pool to spend that kind of money on that are worth it anyway. So just keep Gomez--who can still play decent hockey, albeit not $7.35M worth of hockey--and make best use of him. Then reassess his situation next season when he'll only be owed one year of salary.
You are wrong. The player get 2/3 of the money. The cap hit is also 2/3s, spread over twice the lenght. In short, that is the rule, but there are other quirks. www.capgeek.com for more info.

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07-18-2012, 10:30 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by SeriousHabs View Post
You are wrong. The player get 2/3 of the money. The cap hit is also 2/3s, spread over twice the lenght. In short, that is the rule, but there are other quirks. www.capgeek.com for more info.
Thanks for clearing that up.

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07-18-2012, 11:14 AM
  #100
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Our biggest issue in the next few years will be figuring out what to do with Gionta, Gallagher, Desharnais and Plekanec. Those are all top 6 guys and have no size.

Gallagher will likely replace Gionta when his contract is up. Three out of 6 is still quite high.

Something's gotta give.

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