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World Junior Championship Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

make the ice rinks smaller in europe

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Old
05-24-2012, 07:14 PM
  #101
Mr Kanadensisk
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Originally Posted by VladNYC View Post
I'm an ethnic Russian. Not a Moldovan. I'd cut my hands off before having ANYTHING to do with Romania. I have no affiliation with the EU whatsoever other then travelling there for business a few times a year.

Your trolling is getting desperate these days.
yikes, cut your hands off, are you sure you are not related to Vlad the Impaler?

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05-24-2012, 07:16 PM
  #102
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You're making some false assumptions here. It's not necessarily a matter of the quality of the coaching over here, as the old USSR certainly had better coaching, but more a matter of scale and $$$. In terms of size and numbers the hockey population of North America is roughly equal to the hockey population of Europe, but the best hockey minds are all crammed into 30 teams in NA while in Europe there spread out around a much greater number of teams in the various elite leagues. Plus you have to take into account the type of budgets an NHL coaching & scouting staff has to work with vs in Europe, and you're going to get a stronger analysis of the game that includes taking what works over seas. And yes this includes taking good ideas from Europe and refining them over here.

If you're looking at the national team level it's not going to be that big a difference, but I'm not talking about a 3 week tournament but rather an 82 game regular season schedule.
That's bull. Tactically NHL is lagging behind Europe right now, only a 3rd/less than half of the NHL teams are playing what can considered "modern hockey" far too many play a simple dump/chase hockey or similar that doesn't necessarily suit their team's players at all.

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05-24-2012, 07:52 PM
  #103
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Source? Numbers? Last time i checked North American hockey players and hockey ring numbers destroy everything in Europe combined.



I hope you mean all the best hockey minds in NA are crammed into 30 teams.
The only numbers I remember seeing are that the combined registered hockey players for North America is roughly 500,000, while the main European countries fall somewhere in between 50-100k. There's a big gap but for the sake of the argument I was saying lets just call it even. And also yes that's what I meant, the best North American minds are concentrated on 30 teams. Most teams will employ a few European scouts but other than that there's no real management/coaching imports over here.

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05-25-2012, 03:22 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by VladNYC View Post
The NHL is just like the EPL in soccer. High concentration of talent but there is good sport being played elsewhere as well.
English Premier League is nowhere near as rich and powerful in Football as the NHL is in Hockey. Top Teams in the Primera Division, the Serie A and the Bundesliga can easily compete with the EPL for the best players. While KHL, SEL etc cannot compete with the NHL for the likes of Malkin, the Sedins or Chára. Also the EPL could never afford to give the European or World Federation the finger like the NHL can afford to give IIHF the finger.

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05-25-2012, 06:36 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by RandV View Post
It's not just size that matters. Doesn't matter how big you are if you're skating isn't up to par. I never really watch AHL or US College games, but you'll find plenty of wide open hockey in the CHL suggesting the rinks are suitably sized, and for my own beer league hockey it definitely doesn't need to be any bigger. The top 1000 or so players may have outgrown the standard NA sized rink, but for the 499,000 other people that play hockey in North America there's nothing wrong with our standard size rink.
if you take it from this pow, than whole this thread is pointless. Who cares about NHL/KHL/IIHF hockey when Sunday Leaguers are happy with the rink size.

I pointed out on a fact that average height of those 499,000 ppl you mentioned above is roughly 10 cms more than other 499,000 ppl that lived 10-15 decades ago. Although I have never seen exact figures, we can also suppose that average NHLers are taller, too. Bigger players makes the rink look smaller.

Good example (although little offtopic) are goalies. Century ago, 180 cms tall man was a big well-built bloke, while nowadays goalies are considered undersized if they are just 180 cms tall.

Size matters. No idea how tall will be people in the future, but it would be no fun watch team of Charas on the NA sized rink (I know, very extreme example)

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05-25-2012, 08:21 AM
  #106
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why not just make the ice smaller in europe, to NHL specs....=...room for more audience and thereby more profit , better action, easier to adjust to NHL for euros...........it´s all win !
Why do we need this? Most stupid idea.

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05-25-2012, 01:13 PM
  #107
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Canadians are whining the play on big ice is slow and so on... Tempo is the same, there is just no room in the small ice for skills.
sure there is, you just need to make your decisions a lot quicker. Which takes more skill IMO.

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05-25-2012, 01:31 PM
  #108
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sure there is, you just need to make your decisions a lot quicker. Which takes more skill IMO.
It's a different kind of skill, not inferior or better in any way. Saying small rink kills the skill is just trolling, there was plenty of skill at the Worlds in 2008 and at Vancouver in 2010. When the best players (and coaches) are at work, the game can be great and awful, despite the rink size.

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05-29-2012, 12:31 PM
  #109
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The NHL should make them bigger. Not Olympic size but a couple feet wider at least.

A lot of countries different kind of hybrid rinks already.
I love the full-size Olympic rink, and I'm not aware of any major dissatisfaction with the big ice among European fans. For Europeans, it has more of the flavor of football/soccer, where you have more skillful combinational plays and beautiful goals. A player's size isn't as dominant a factor on the big ice, the extra ice allows smaller guys to use their speed and skill to be effective, rather than being ran off the ice by some big moose because there is no room to maneuver.

For North American fans, the primary interest is collisions - men bumping into other men. On NHL ice, that is all that there is room to do. As Ken Dryden once said, its hard to control the puck for more than two or three seconds on NHL rinks. Combine that with the fact that players have gotten bigger and bigger, and faster and faster, and what I see is one big traffic jam, with the puck pinballing all over the place. I don't really understand the fascination with that, but if that is the preference, that's their business. Let them have their small rinks, but leave the big rinks alone.

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05-29-2012, 03:18 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by RandV View Post
You're making some false assumptions here. It's not necessarily a matter of the quality of the coaching over here, as the old USSR certainly had better coaching, but more a matter of scale and $$$. In terms of size and numbers the hockey population of North America is roughly equal to the hockey population of Europe, but the best hockey minds are all crammed into 30 teams in NA while in Europe there spread out around a much greater number of teams in the various elite leagues. Plus you have to take into account the type of budgets an NHL coaching & scouting staff has to work with vs in Europe, and you're going to get a stronger analysis of the game that includes taking what works over seas. And yes this includes taking good ideas from Europe and refining them over here.

If you're looking at the national team level it's not going to be that big a difference, but I'm not talking about a 3 week tournament but rather an 82 game regular season schedule.
I am not being sarcastic, but it seems to me that the small ice has the effect of relieving the "best hockey minds" of a lot of their workload. When you are on small ice, you are more or less forced to dump and chase. How many different forechecking systems can you have? You can either choose to send 1, 2 or 3 men in to forecheck. You can also establish a few patterns for disrupting the other teams' breakout once you have dumped the puck in. You can also run a few patterns on your power play and your penalty kill. Most of the coaching done in the NHL is bench coaching - matching lines and motivating your team to go, go, go. With all due respect, I don't see any NHL coaches coming out with a full-scale textbook on the theory, strategies and tactics of hockey and player development such as is found in THE ROAD TO OLYMPUS, written by Anatoli Tarasov.

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05-29-2012, 11:36 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
I am not being sarcastic, but it seems to me that the small ice has the effect of relieving the "best hockey minds" of a lot of their workload. When you are on small ice, you are more or less forced to dump and chase. How many different forechecking systems can you have? You can either choose to send 1, 2 or 3 men in to forecheck. You can also establish a few patterns for disrupting the other teams' breakout once you have dumped the puck in. You can also run a few patterns on your power play and your penalty kill. Most of the coaching done in the NHL is bench coaching - matching lines and motivating your team to go, go, go. With all due respect, I don't see any NHL coaches coming out with a full-scale textbook on the theory, strategies and tactics of hockey and player development such as is found in THE ROAD TO OLYMPUS, written by Anatoli Tarasov.
Mike Babcock, Dan Bylsma, Peter DeBoer, Peter Laviolette could probably tell you something you don't know.

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05-29-2012, 11:52 PM
  #112
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sure there is, you just need to make your decisions a lot quicker. Which takes more skill IMO.
Yes and no.

Success on small ice is predicated on ability to create time and space for yourself. This can be done by either:
1. a high skill level
2. physicality (which does not require a high level of finesse skills).

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06-02-2012, 08:20 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by RandV View Post
The only numbers I remember seeing are that the combined registered hockey players for North America is roughly 500,000, while the main European countries fall somewhere in between 50-100k. There's a big gap but for the sake of the argument I was saying lets just call it even. And also yes that's what I meant, the best North American minds are concentrated on 30 teams. Most teams will employ a few European scouts but other than that there's no real management/coaching imports over here.
The registration number is totally meaningless when you are talking about the quality of hockey programs. There are less than 500 Canadians in the NHL, so take the 500 or so in the NHL and subtract that number from the total number that are allegedly registered, and you get 499,500 registered Canadians who aren't good enough to play in the NHL. If you aren't good enough to play in the NHL, then you are incapable of contributing toward Canada winning international trophies. Canadian posters are the first to say that if the very best Canadian players are not on the roster, then there is little chance of Canada winning a Gold or Silver medal. So the total registration number is just a meaningless statistic.

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06-02-2012, 08:25 PM
  #114
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Yes and no.

Success on small ice is predicated on ability to create time and space for yourself. This can be done by either:
1. a high skill level
2. physicality (which does not require a high level of finesse skills).
Generally, there is too little room to display more than flashes of skill. Most successful NHL teams are primarily physical, which I think is boring in comparison to wide open, skilled hockey.

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06-02-2012, 08:28 PM
  #115
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Mike Babcock, Dan Bylsma, Peter DeBoer, Peter Laviolette could probably tell you something you don't know.
All fine coaches, but they are tacticians and motivators. They aren't adding anything new to the body of knowledge on hockey.

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06-02-2012, 11:19 PM
  #116
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It's funny how offended you guys get when someone tells you you should change something, but then two seconds later you will say that North American rinks are inferior and we are stupid for not changing them.
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post

For North American fans, the primary interest is collisions - men bumping into other men.


Last edited by WaltWhitman: 06-02-2012 at 11:55 PM.
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06-02-2012, 11:31 PM
  #117
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Well, watching the final today, I have to say I was missing the larger ice surface - that was like flipper. Players are now much bigger and quicker and the North American rinks won't allow as much skill and variation to game as the international ice. Variation also in player types - it's much easier to compensate for size on the larger surface. I don't think there is much competition here, though I would be open for a compromice, maybe split the difference around two thirds towards the olympic size.

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06-05-2012, 03:38 AM
  #118
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Yes, what a great idea. Let's make everything/everyone the same!
I mean, isn't it the variety/different styles of play what make international hockey interesting? For me it is, anyway. I would not want to see European teams trying to ape the North American game.

No, having a big ice will make sure that also in the future neither Canada nor USA wins any major international tournament - unless it's held in North America

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07-16-2012, 07:41 PM
  #119
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Funny, the last time Canada won the world championships I seem to remember them winning it in Russia.


By the way, if Russia manages to win gold in Sochi will that mean they can only win gold when it's at home?


Food for thought.


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Yes, what a great idea. Let's make everything/everyone the same!
I mean, isn't it the variety/different styles of play what make international hockey interesting? For me it is, anyway. I would not want to see European teams trying to ape the North American game.

No, having a big ice will make sure that also in the future neither Canada nor USA wins any major international tournament - unless it's held in North America

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07-16-2012, 10:15 PM
  #120
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Funny, the last time Canada won the world championships I seem to remember them winning it in Russia.


By the way, if Russia manages to win gold in Sochi will that mean they can only win gold when it's at home?


Food for thought.
Russia won 2008 in Canda.

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07-17-2012, 01:31 AM
  #121
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I think the bigger ice is good

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07-17-2012, 09:24 AM
  #122
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I know, that's the point.


Let's cut the ******** of teams being only able to win on certain continents, we all know it isn't true.

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Russia won 2008 in Canda.

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07-17-2012, 12:23 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by espo View Post
Funny, the last time Canada won the world championships I seem to remember them winning it in Russia.


By the way, if Russia manages to win gold in Sochi will that mean they can only win gold when it's at home?


Food for thought.
I thought the smiley in the end would have given a hint that I wasn't all that serious.

But if you insist...

In the Winter Olympics (i.e. genuine best-on-best tournament), it has been like that for CAN (gold in Salt Lake City and in Vancouver, a turkey in Nagano and Turin), whereas Russia has been underachieving all the time (more in 2006 & 2010, less in 1998 & 2002), no matter where the Olympics have been held.

And it's not like I care about Russia's success in Sochi anyway (Goooo Finland!).


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07-17-2012, 07:51 PM
  #124
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No turkey in Nagano, they played well just not well enough and were stoned by a top of his game Hasek and it took a nail biting shootout at that to keep them out of the championship game..


Nagano is a myth.They were a stones throw away from a gold medal game.

But yeah..............Russia hasn't won anything at the last 4 olympics, no-one can dispute that. But they've won other things over here.

The bottom line is that it's silly to think these teams can only win close to home and on a particular rink size, they've both shown that's sheer bulls&*t.


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Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
I thought the smiley in the end would have given a hint that I wasn't all that serious.

But if you insist...

In the Winter Olympics (i.e. genuine best-on-best tournament), it has been like that for CAN (gold in Salt Lake City and in Vancouver, a turkey in Nagano and Turin), whereas Russia has been underachieving all the time (more in 2006 & 2010, less in 1998 & 2002), no matter where the Olympics have been held.

And it's not like I care about Russia's success in Sochi anyway (Goooo Finland!).


Last edited by stv11: 07-18-2012 at 04:12 AM.
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07-18-2012, 06:22 AM
  #125
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Originally Posted by BobDobolina View Post
The NHL should make them bigger. Not Olympic size but a couple feet wider at least.
yeah, the ideal rink is somewhere between the two.

I like the fact N.A. and Euro rinks are different though, and i fear smaller rinks might affect the kind of players Euro leagues and juniors develop.

So if it was up to me, we would have slightly larger NHL rinks, narrower Euro rinks, but Euro rinks would still be bigger than the NHL rinks.

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