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Dan Boyle may be on the block

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Old
07-17-2012, 12:32 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Del Zotto looks like he's taken a dump in his pants when he skates. It's not effecive.
Congrats for proving that you don't watch Rangers hockey.

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I have no idea what you're even trying to prove here.
Ridiculous stereotypes. That's what I'm trying to prove my point.

You stated that Rangers fans called Del Zotto, Del Zaster, implying that he's not good at defense or his value is low in a trade. Which is ridiculously stereotyped.

In return, I gave a common stereotype attached to Marleau, a playoff choker.

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Gaborik: 62GP, 22G, 26A, 48P. That was last year without Richards. And then Gaborik in the playoffs this season... And you call Marleau a choker...
I never stated Marleau was a choker though.... Jeez.

And Gaborik was injured that whole year and it was an awful year to be honest. Not sure how this is relevant to the discussion?

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Come on. Couture is much better than Del Zotto is at his position, and Boyle is much better than Richards is at his position. That's an absolutely ludacris statement. Couture is already a near-70 point two-way player. Del Zotto is a one dimensional second-pairing defenseman.
Agreed that Couture is better

but lol you're making it sound like Del Zotto is trash.

He is absolutely not one-dimensional.

He improved a lot this offseason and he played 22-25 minutes before Staal was injured. Defensively sound hockey while being a threat offensively on the ice. He is a core member of the Rangers and what is ludacrious is you underrating him as sort of a trash Tom Poti-lite player.

Richards has more value than Boyle since he is younger imo.

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A better comparison would be, would you trade Stepan for Joe Thornton. The parallels are there: Thornton is leaving his prime, Stepan is entering it. Yet Stepan will never be close to as good a player as Thornton is now or will be for the next five years, which is when the Rangers window will have closed.

You trade Stepan for Thornton in a heartbeat.
Absolutely not.

A good comparision would be Elias for Couture.

Elias and Boyle are the same age. Couture will never be better than Elias. Del Zotto, I think in his prime has a chance to be as good as Boyle. Boyle wasn't even an elite player until he went to his second team.

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07-17-2012, 12:33 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by hohosaregood View Post
Pronger was 35 when he was last traded
Pronger was the best defenseman in the league and HOF pedigree.

And I wouldn't give that much for a 36 yr old Pronger either.

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07-17-2012, 12:34 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Vitto79 View Post
First off as a Ranger fan I would not do Gaborik for Boyle. Rangers need scoring Forwards not D.

Wth that said I would take Boyle for sure at the right price
We would want the same thing that you need so I don't think we woul be good trading partners.

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07-17-2012, 12:34 PM
  #79
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Hey the Sharks would take Morrow and Fistric for Boyle right...

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Old
07-17-2012, 12:34 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Hatrick Marleau View Post
I wouldn't trade Stalock for Lundvquist because Stalock is way way younger. I'll take my chances with him.
You do that.

And baffling decisions like these are why the Sharks have never won the cup despite having top tier regular season teams.

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07-17-2012, 12:36 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Please find a post where I disparaged Del Zotto. You won't because I did not. You are confusing me with other posters. I was simply arguing that the 'age' argument is tired and beside the point. We are discussing trading Boyle for a top-6 forward, not another d-man.

Is Buccigros reliable? not totally, I admitted that, but he's not totally unreliable either. He should be given a bit more credence then certain very unreliable 'sources' that are given weight around here.

As I said, Boyle is a 50 point two-way dman for the next 2 years. You are not going to get much more of a guaranteed production out of any other available defensemen, regardless of being 36. Past that, who knows, but he's only signed for 2 years so that's all that matters value wise.
Don't think Buccigros is reliable. He said Schultz will sign with the Rangers, so I'm not even worried.

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07-17-2012, 12:37 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
You do that.

And baffling decisions like these are why the Sharks have never won the cup despite having top tier regular season teams.
He was being sarcastic.

Can you drop the Del Zotto stuff please? It's really derailing the thread. We are talking about Boyle for a forward here, not Boyle for another defensemen, that doesn't make a lot of sense regardless of who it is.

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07-17-2012, 12:38 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Because the Rangers' defensive brilliance had anything to do with Del Zotto. The notion is laughable.
And why is it laughable? He logged the 3rd most ES minutes. (Staal was injured half the year) He isn't a defensive dynamo, but he is good at rushing the puck up and generating offense. Something that our defense would sorely lack without him.

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07-17-2012, 12:39 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
You do that.

And baffling decisions like these are why the Sharks have never won the cup despite having top tier regular season teams.
I guess you didn't see this at the end.

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07-17-2012, 12:40 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
And Luca Sbisa, and the first that became Cam Fowler.
Emerson Etem.

Lupul was a cap dump, but a solid player.

Sbisa was a supposed top prospect.

Pick was expected to go late.

Nothing I see that's worth Del Zotto. Exception of Lupul who was overpaid, Sbisa and pick were unproven/unestablished players. Expect a similar return for Boyle.

Dubinsky, 1st, Miller

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07-17-2012, 12:41 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
My response is that injuries shouldn't be an excuse for Gaborik if Rangers fans aren't going to accept them for Marleau.
I never said anything about Marleau. And if others do, then that's them being ridiculous. Doesn't change the fact that Gaborik played basically the entire post-season with one arm. Kinda hard to look at production when you got a guy playing with a torn rotator cuff.

But, I guess if someone jumped all over Marleau for it then the same should be done to Gaborik. Ya know, because that's mature

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07-17-2012, 12:42 PM
  #87
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edit not worth it


Last edited by Kershaw: 07-17-2012 at 01:02 PM.
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07-17-2012, 12:44 PM
  #88
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Seriously, why are we debating Del Zotto's value in a Dan Boyle thread? Please go start another thread if you feel the need to do that.

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07-17-2012, 12:45 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
And why is it laughable? He logged the 3rd most ES minutes. He isn't a defensive dynamo, but he is good at rushing the puck up and generating offense. Something that our defense would sorely lack without him.
It can't be that hard to have the 3rd most ES minutes when Staal was out half the season and your coach only uses 5 defensemen

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07-17-2012, 12:45 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Congrats for proving that you don't watch Rangers hockey.
So I'm wrong. Del Zotto skates like the wind, performing skating maneuvers that make Jeff Skinner green with envy.

Del Zotto is a decidedly below-average skater, and the NHL is quickly moving away from those types of blue-liners.

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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Ridiculous stereotypes. That's what I'm trying to prove my point.

You stated that Rangers fans called Del Zotto, Del Zaster, implying that he's not good at defense or his value is low in a trade. Which is ridiculously stereotyped.

In return, I gave a common stereotype attached to Marleau, a playoff choker.
Tell me, honestly, that Del Zotto is great in his own zone, and I'll let it go.

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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
I never stated Marleau was a choker though.... Jeez.

And Gaborik was injured that whole year and it was an awful year to be honest. Not sure how this is relevant to the discussion?
And now you hedge the point. My point was that Gaborik was on a severe production decline until he got one of the best playmakers in the league on his team. Nash has never had someone like that.

"An awful year to be honest". Yeah, probably had something to do with not having a good C.



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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Agreed that Couture is better

but lol you're making it sound like Del Zotto is trash.

He is absolutely not one-dimensional.

He improved a lot this offseason and he played 22-25 minutes before Staal was injured. Defensively sound hockey while being a threat offensively on the ice. He is a core member of the Rangers and what is ludacrious is you underrating him as sort of a trash Tom Poti-lite player.

Richards has more value than Boyle since he is younger imo.
This is the core problem with your argument. YOUNGER =/= BETTER. Get that through your head. I wouldn't trade Boyle for Richards.

Del Zotto is good at his defined role: He's very good offensively and has a nice shot and plays the body well. I'm not denying that he's a good player. But he's not a good skater, and he's not good defensively. And he will never be as good as Boyle is. Boyle plays the hardest minutes on the team after Vlasic, he succeeds with them, he plays top PP and PK and he puts up 50+ points regularly. Del Zotto will not reach that level. Del Zotto will be a good #3 that you deploy in offensive situations. That's all.

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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Absolutely not.

A good comparision would be Elias for Couture.

Elias and Boyle are the same age. Couture will never be better than Elias. Del Zotto, I think in his prime has a chance to be as good as Boyle. Boyle wasn't even an elite player until he went to his second team.
Except that this year was a rejuvenated year for Elias, in which he increased his point totals by almost 20 points from the last season. Who knows if he'll be able to repeat that next season.

And except that Elias is not a top-10 forward. Boyle>>>Elias and Couture>> Del Zotto. Yet another parallel you attempt that severely undervalues both Boyle and Couture.

A better one would be Couture for Datsyuk. I'd do that.

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07-17-2012, 12:49 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Emerson Etem.

Lupul was a cap dump, but a solid player.

Sbisa was a supposed top prospect.

Pick was expected to go late.

Nothing I see that's worth Del Zotto. Exception of Lupul who was overpaid, Sbisa and pick were unproven/unestablished players. Expect a similar return for Boyle.

Dubinsky, 1st, Miller
I would do that. You implied that you'd trade Miller straight up for Boyle and that was it.

Anyway, I'm done with this. It's clear that age>>talent and there's nothing I can do to change that.

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07-17-2012, 12:57 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
So I'm wrong. Del Zotto skates like the wind, performing skating maneuvers that make Jeff Skinner green with envy.
Nope. He is an average skater. Not terrible.

Girardi and Staal are as worse skaters.

You're in a no win argument. Rangers fans have watched him play full season, yet you're trying to educate us on our own player's talents? lol

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Del Zotto is a decidedly below-average skater, and the NHL is quickly moving away from those types of blue-liners.
Prove it.

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Tell me, honestly, that Del Zotto is great in his own zone, and I'll let it go.
Logged third most minutes on the 2nd best team/2nd best defensive team in the league? No chance in hell he gets more minutes than McDonagh or Girardi since they're an established top tier shutdown pairing.

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And now you hedge the point. My point was that Gaborik was on a severe production decline until he got one of the best playmakers in the league on his team. Nash has never had someone like that.
That's not true.

Gaborik was injured form the end of the 09-10 season and required surgery.

He never returned to his dominant form the next season due to missed training camp, no workouts.

And Gaborik has proven to put career highs with Eric Christensen and Vaclav Prospal in 09-10, but thanks for proving your point that you don't watch the Rangers. And Gaborik scored 40 goals again playing mostly with Anisimov and Stepan this year.

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"An awful year to be honest". Yeah, probably had something to do with not having a good C.
Once again he put numbers in career highs in 09-10 with Eric Christensen.

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This is the core problem with your argument. YOUNGER =/= BETTER. Get that through your head. I wouldn't trade Boyle for Richards.
Rangers would scoff at the offer. Understandable from SJ though.

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Del Zotto is good at his defined role: He's very good offensively and has a nice shot and plays the body well. I'm not denying that he's a good player. But he's not a good skater, and he's not good defensively. And he will never be as good as Boyle is. Boyle plays the hardest minutes on the team after Vlasic, he succeeds with them, he plays top PP and PK and he puts up 50+ points regularly. Del Zotto will not reach that level. Del Zotto will be a good #3 that you deploy in offensive situations. That's all.
Del Zotto is still young, is good defensively for his age and is exceptional offensively. He'll be a 1000 GP offensive d-man unless his play completely deteriorates or gets injured. He's still young and has the potential. He plays physical, he can move the puck, he plays sound defensive hockey for his age and generates offense. I don't think he'll be better than current Boyle, but I do think he can become a star player in this league. Still young.

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Except that this year was a rejuvenated year for Elias, in which he increased his point totals by almost 20 points from the last season. Who knows if he'll be able to repeat that next season.
Elias played with Sykora and Zubrus lol. This wasn't even close to his best year in his career.

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And except that Elias is not a top-10 forward. Boyle>>>Elias and Couture>> Del Zotto. Yet another parallel you attempt that severely undervalues both Boyle and Couture.
Really? Elias is arguably a top 10 forward. He was 10th in points and played big PK minutes on the best PK tandem ever. He is an elite defensive player and an elite offensive player.

So how is Boyle better than Elias exactly?

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A better one would be Couture for Datsyuk. I'd do that.
Of course you would.

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07-17-2012, 12:57 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Not a chance!

Del Zotto >>>>>> Boyle
Gaborik >> Nash
Thomas, 1st >>>>>>> nothing


Boyle >> MDZ

Nash >>>> Gaborik

put Nash with Richards and u'll see the difference and lets not forget rick doesnt get injured for half the year

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07-17-2012, 12:58 PM
  #94
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Lol at Buccigross sparking all of this.

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07-17-2012, 01:01 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
I would do that. You implied that you'd trade Miller straight up for Boyle and that was it.

Anyway, I'm done with this. It's clear that age>>talent and there's nothing I can do to change that.
age doesn't mean it's better than talent. But you've got to use it with context.

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07-17-2012, 01:03 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by PATCHESx67 View Post


Boyle >> MDZ
Disagree. Would you move Subban for Boyle?

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Nash >>>> Gaborik

put Nash with Richards and u'll see the difference and lets not forget rick doesnt get injured for half the year
Except Gaborik played with mostly Anisimov and Stepan and registered career highs with Christensen and Prospal.

So what makes Nash better than Gaborik? Good ol' Canadian kid?

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07-17-2012, 01:22 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Nope. He is an average skater. Not terrible.

Girardi and Staal are as worse skaters.

You're in a no win argument. Rangers fans have watched him play full season, yet you're trying to educate us on our own player's talents? lol
He's a below-average skater, from what I've seen. I guess you're defense is just slow in general then.

No, I'm trying to help you step away from bias. In general, Rangers fans are by far the most high on their own young players on this entire forum, from what I've seen.

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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Prove it.
Great argument. How on earth am I supposed to prove that Del Zotto is a poor skater? Videos? Nah, you'll just say he isn't going at full speed or isn't trying as hard.

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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Logged third most minutes on the 2nd best team/2nd best defensive team in the league? No chance in hell he gets more minutes than McDonagh or Girardi since they're an established top tier shutdown pairing.
Just because he logged top-4 minutes on a good defensive team doesn't make him good defensively. That's a horrible argument.

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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Del Zotto is still young, is good defensively for his age and is exceptional offensively. He'll be a 1000 GP offensive d-man unless his play completely deteriorates or gets injured. He's still young and has the potential. He plays physical, he can move the puck, he plays sound defensive hockey for his age and generates offense. I don't think he'll be better than current Boyle, but I do think he can become a star player in this league. Still young.
'For his age' is the qualifier that stands out to me. Is there an age limit on defensive ability? Ryan McDonagh is an absolute stud defensively, easily top-10 in the league in his own zone, and he's 23.

The assumption you continually make is that Del Zotto will get better defensively with age. That's an assumption that, watching Del Zotto play and having a close friend who's a huge Rangers fan complain about it to me, I wouldn't put money on. Agree to disagree then.

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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Elias played with Sykora and Zubrus lol. This wasn't even close to his best year in his career.



Really? Elias is arguably a top 10 forward. He was 10th in points and played big PK minutes on the best PK tandem ever. He is an elite defensive player and an elite offensive player.

So how is Boyle better than Elias exactly?
You are completely misreading my post. I love Patrik Elias. He's easily my favorite Devil and for my money the best Devils player. He's a fantastic player in every facet of the game. My point is that Elias had a down year the year before last season and then bounced back; who knows if he'll be PPG again next season? Boyle has been consistently elite, and that is his value.

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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Of course you would.
Then you should do Del Zotto for Boyle. Couture is to Datsyuk as Del Zotto is to Boyle. Oh wait. Datsyuk himself told Couture at this season's All-Star game that Couture was a better player than Dats at Couture's age.

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07-17-2012, 01:39 PM
  #98
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07-17-2012, 01:40 PM
  #99
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Who really cares if Boyle is better than Mdz or Gaborik when hes soon done? Cmon hes already 36 not worth much imho.

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07-17-2012, 01:41 PM
  #100
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Want badly in Ottawa!

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