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2012 NBA Off-Season Thread: There's a new team in town

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Old
07-17-2012, 05:39 PM
  #301
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I'm not a big basketball fan, but people upset over the knicks not matching houston's offer are clouded by the whole "Linsanity" spectacle. He was originally let go by the rockets for nothing. He played what 25 games? And now he deserves that kind of money? He is not the centerpiece of the knicks. He is replaceable and at a much cheaper price.

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07-17-2012, 06:12 PM
  #302
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I heard on the radio from Stephen A. Smith that Dolan made the final decision on whether or not to match.

1. Why the **** is Dolan making ANY decision regarding this team?

2. THANK GOD he doesn't make the final decisions for the Rangers.

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07-17-2012, 06:28 PM
  #303
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it's amazing how Dolan apparently had no issues all those years paying a luxury tax but now he does?

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07-17-2012, 06:35 PM
  #304
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well.. i know i posted this in the old NBA thread at the height of linsanity on feb 15th and said:

Quote:
yeah. ill be laughing when hes not even a knick next year
which got the responses:

Quote:
The most he can get is the full MLE, which the Knicks will have and he's a RFA, they can match any offer.

If you really think Dolan is letting this money machine get away, you're nuts.

This is all Dolan sees when watching Lin: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
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Do some research and reassess your mind.
Quote:
They can give him the 5 mill MLE. He's also a RFA.

He ain't going no where.
laughing all the way to the bank, as is jeremy. all the hoopla for a 25 game flash in the pants.

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07-17-2012, 06:45 PM
  #305
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Welp. Here's hoping Carmelo can actually lead this team and STAT comes back strong.

Also, anybody complaining about the money is stupid. This is the same James Dolan who gave the moon to Jerome James, Eddy Curry, etc.

Dolan let a talented PG go, so now we have Raymond Felton who can do alright sometimes and an old guy who doesn't have it anymore.

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07-17-2012, 06:46 PM
  #306
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it's amazing how Dolan apparently had no issues all those years paying a luxury tax but now he does?
Has nothing to do with financials.

Dolan is a man who adores loyalty and someone who holds grudges. Lin and his camp pissed him off after going back to the Rockets to renegotiate a new deal after some idiot in the Knicks opened their mouth and claimed the "Knicks will match anything up to a billion dollars".

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07-17-2012, 06:48 PM
  #307
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I'm disappointed in losing an asset, but, some of the people losing their collective minds over Jeremy Lin not being matched...I got over seeing Jose Reyes sign elsewhere...Lin's not even a blip in that universe. Just not worth the mental anguish.

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07-17-2012, 06:51 PM
  #308
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Also I love how all these people on Knicks blogs are "revoking" their fandom and trying to justify it and whatnot, even though they, like some of us, had probably already stopped paying much attention to the team until Amar'e was signed.

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07-17-2012, 06:52 PM
  #309
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Jeremy Lin is a product of Speedball. Put the ball in the hands of the PG. Speedball has been replaced by real basketball. Rebound and defend. The Knicks don't feel Lin is that good of a player worthy of paying $30M in luxury taxes in 14-15. Some people feel Lin is a back-up PG. Alan Hahn,Frank Isola and Stephen A.Smith have all echoed that sentiment.

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07-17-2012, 06:54 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Jeremy Lin is a product of Speedball. Put the ball in the hands of the PG. Speedball has been replaced by real basketball. Rebound and defend. The Knicks don't feel Lin is that good of a player worthy of paying $30M in luxury taxes in 14-15. Some people feel Lin is a back-up PG. Alan Hahn,Frank Isola and Stephen A.Smith have all echoed that sentiment.
I think there's a quote from Larry Brown that he believes Lin could be a very good backup PG in this league.

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07-17-2012, 06:58 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Jeremy Lin is a product of Speedball. Put the ball in the hands of the PG. Speedball has been replaced by real basketball. Rebound and defend. The Knicks don't feel Lin is that good of a player worthy of paying $30M in luxury taxes in 14-15. Some people feel Lin is a back-up PG. Alan Hahn,Frank Isola and Stephen A.Smith have all echoed that sentiment.
Dolan pays 120+mill for garbage teams with paying the likes of Jerome James 5/30mill and Eddy Curry big money, but now all of a sudden won't pay Lin 25mill and the luxury taxes involved?

He just lost a crap load of money through MSG stock.

Dolans feels betrayed. That is it the reason why. I don;t care about any garbage statements the Knicks say.

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07-17-2012, 07:03 PM
  #312
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All this process reminds us, much like the Melo debacle last year, is that James Dolan is way too involved in this franchise and it's why we won't be a great team for a while.

That being said, we have one of the best centers in the league (love Tyson) and an elite perimeter defender in Shump. If Carmelo and STAT can't make us a top 4 seed with such a great defense then they're both undeserving of all the praise they've recieved.

Here's hoping STAT is healthy and Carmelo remembers he exists.


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07-17-2012, 07:14 PM
  #313
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Man. That video is just a sad reminder of how much of an explosive finisher amare can be when hew healthy. He just looked over weight and stiff this past year

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07-17-2012, 07:17 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by RL605 View Post
Dolan pays 120+mill for garbage teams with paying the likes of Jerome James 5/30mill and Eddy Curry big money, but now all of a sudden won't pay Lin 25mill and the luxury taxes involved?

He just lost a crap load of money through MSG stock.

Dolans feels betrayed. That is it the reason why. I don;t care about any garbage statements the Knicks say.
Those moves really worked out well for the Garden and Dolan so lets make the same mistakes all over again.

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07-17-2012, 07:17 PM
  #315
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Jeremy Lin is a product of Speedball. Put the ball in the hands of the PG. Speedball has been replaced by real basketball. Rebound and defend. The Knicks don't feel Lin is that good of a player worthy of paying $30M in luxury taxes in 14-15. Some people feel Lin is a back-up PG. Alan Hahn,Frank Isola and Stephen A.Smith have all echoed that sentiment.
RB, you're my go-to guy on all things Rangers, but you're not as informed here.

Firstly, regarding the writers you named, SAS is a flat out racist and Isola has had his own anti-Lin agenda from the start. Hahn is an excellent reporter - who now works for MSG - and even he has said repeatedly that at the very least you need to match and get something in trade for Lin.

Regarding his game, Lin has things to work on, no doubt, but he was excellent under Woodson as well. Furthermore, the 25 game thing swings both ways - he put up better numbers than Rubio, Wall, etc... on almost no experience. It's equally possible that he has MORE upside.

Regarding the financial details, read the Coon and Aldridge posts: Lin will be eminently tradable in his third year. Even if you don't move him, you can drastically reduce the tax implications by employing the stretch provision. And this is before we even discuss the revenue and market cap sides of the equation.

This all comes down to a Jim Dolan vendetta, nothing more, nothing less.

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07-17-2012, 07:17 PM
  #316
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Originally Posted by jas View Post
I think there's a quote from Larry Brown that he believes Lin could be a very good backup PG in this league.
Quote:
"I think the kid was the great. The system helped him be really great," Brown said of Lin. "It's a wonderful story. But I look at him as a terrific backup in the NBA. I may be wrong, I really want him to be successful but I think if you overpay him for the interest that he created that's not the best thing.

"I think you overpay him if you think he's going to make you better, going to make Stoudemire better, going to make Carmelo better, going to make Tyson better….then pay him as much as you can."
http://content.usatoday.com/communit...1#.UAXwkxxnA3U

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07-17-2012, 07:37 PM
  #317
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Lin's flaws are very fixable. He will be a very good starter on Houston.

Nobody seems to mention that he was playing three games in four nights, sometimes three in three nights.

In a normal season with a normal camp and normal minutes with an adequate backup, I can see Lin being a 17-10 guy.

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07-17-2012, 07:41 PM
  #318
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Yep, Lin would've been by far our best PG. PG goes from being a position of strength to probably a weakness.

I maintain, though, that if STAT and Carmelo can't score enough with some contribution from everyone else to complement the elite Tyson-Shump defensive tandem, this wouldn't have worked even with Lin.

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07-17-2012, 07:41 PM
  #319
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
RB, you're my go-to guy on all things Rangers, but you're not as informed here.

Firstly, regarding the writers you named, SAS is a flat out racist and Isola has had his own anti-Lin agenda from the start. Hahn is an excellent reporter - who now works for MSG - and even he has said repeatedly that at the very least you need to match and get something in trade for Lin.

Regarding his game, Lin has things to work on, no doubt, but he was excellent under Woodson as well. Furthermore, the 25 game thing swings both ways - he put up better numbers than Rubio, Wall, etc... on almost no experience. It's equally possible that he has MORE upside.

Regarding the financial details, read the Coon and Aldridge posts: Lin will be eminently tradable in his third year. Even if you don't move him, you can drastically reduce the tax implications by employing the stretch provision. And this is before we even discuss the revenue and market cap sides of the equation.

This all comes down to a Jim Dolan vendetta, nothing more, nothing less.
Wrong. I am not as big as basketball as hockey guy but I watched the Knicks with Bernard King,Bill Cartwright and Rory Sparrow. I follow the NBA. I know who is who. Don't give me that BS.

Hahn was on Smith's radio on Sunday afternoon discussing Lin. Hahn said he has spoken with many NBA people about Lin. He was surprised about the feedback he got. Back up NBA PG. All of those NBA coaches/execs all have an ax to grind too? Isola hates Dolan. Why is he basically agreeing with the decision to let Lin go? I know he hates Lin more?

Why so much hype about Lin? They made shirts. Banners. Duane Reade had more Lin stuff than the Giants Super Bowl victory. Linsanity. There are and have been 10000x better players who have played in NY and they never received the hype he did. Reverse racism?

Back up PG. Why bother adding to the luxury tax bill by using the stretch provision which is the same thing as the NHL buyout system taking away 2/3 used in the NHL CBA?

Quote:
Stretch provision

• 2005 CBA: By mutual agreement, teams can alter the payment schedule to waived players. The remaining guaranteed salary is applied to the team's salary cap across the remaining years of the player's contract.

2011 CBA: The player's remaining salary and his cap hit may be stretched across twice the number of seasons remaining on the contract, plus one (for example, the salary and cap hit for a player waived with two seasons remaining may be stretched across five seasons). This is entirely at the team's discretion, but it applies only to contracts signed under the 2011 CBA.

• Who benefits? Teams with bad contracts. For example, if a team has an underperforming player with one season remaining at $12 million, the team can waive him and stretch his salary across three seasons at $4 million per season. This will help with cash flow and provide $8 million in cap relief for the current season.
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/...pares-last-one

That would be like the Rangers signing a player to a long-term deal and then deciding after two years,they will buy him out with sending him to the minors not an option because they realized he can't play and they want cap relief. They shouldn't have signed him in the first place.

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07-17-2012, 08:25 PM
  #320
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Those moves really worked out well for the Garden and Dolan so lets make the same mistakes all over again.
The Knicks are not a lottery team like they were then.

Actually could have been if it wasn't for Lin.

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07-17-2012, 08:33 PM
  #321
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The Knicks don't feel Lin is that good of a player worthy of paying $30M in luxury taxes in 14-15. Some people feel Lin is a back-up PG. Alan Hahn,Frank Isola and Stephen A.Smith have all echoed that sentiment.
Isn't Lin worth the $5MM it would cost in each of the next two seasons? The $30MM is a myth. The Knicks could use the Stretch provision of the CBA, waive Lin and all he'd cost is $5MM for 3 years.

Lin didn't just have a good game or 2, he showed enough vs. some tough competition that he is at least a very good PG in this league.

Funny how people question Lin's sample size but many of the same people have christened Kreider an untouchable after an even smaller sample size.

And now Lin will probably wind up in Houston because Dolan's team was stupid enough to show their cards - "we'll match up to a billion dollars!" - and they gave Houston the opportunity to revise the deal. Some stuff never changes at the Garden. When is Isiah returning?

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07-17-2012, 08:34 PM
  #322
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Wrong. I am not as big as basketball as hockey guy but I watched the Knicks with Bernard King,Bill Cartwright and Rory Sparrow. I follow the NBA. I know who is who. Don't give me that BS.

Hahn was on Smith's radio on Sunday afternoon discussing Lin. Hahn said he has spoken with many NBA people about Lin. He was surprised about the feedback he got. Back up NBA PG. All of those NBA coaches/execs all have an ax to grind too? Isola hates Dolan. Why is he basically agreeing with the decision to let Lin go? I know he hates Lin more?

Why so much hype about Lin? They made shirts. Banners. Duane Reade had more Lin stuff than the Giants Super Bowl victory. Linsanity. There are and have been 10000x better players who have played in NY and they never received the hype he did. Reverse racism?

Back up PG. Why bother adding to the luxury tax bill by using the stretch provision which is the same thing as the NHL buyout system taking away 2/3 used in the NHL CBA?



http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/...pares-last-one

That would be like the Rangers signing a player to a long-term deal and then deciding after two years,they will buy him out with sending him to the minors not an option because they realized he can't play and they want cap relief. They shouldn't have signed him in the first place.
I stand by what I said - and I've been following the team just as long (for whatever that's worth).

- SAS is the Don Cherry of basketball. He has some good player contacts, but his opinions are worth *******.

- Hahn supports the position that the Knicks should keep Lin - and he works for the freaking team.

- Larry Brown thinks the kid's a good backup? Great. Lin's actual coach compared him to a 2x MVP - and there are plenty of other opinions around the league that match.

- His stats - both before and after D'Antoni - say he's, not just a starter in this league, but a good starter in this league.

- Oh, and that contract? Nice how all the Garden mouthpieces ignore that it's actually a ridiculous bargain for 2/3 of it's term.

- As to the third year? A $15MM expiring is an asset in a trade in the NBA. The stretch position is only "belts and suspenders" if for some reason you can't trade him.



Last, most importantly, the kid is an asset that the team has for free. The choices are a) keep him and make use of him or b) let him go for nothing. There is no c) get someone else instead, because we only have him through the miracle of the Bird Rights ruling. To let him go for free is wasting an asset.

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07-17-2012, 08:39 PM
  #323
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post

- His stats - both before and after D'Antoni - say he's, not just a starter in this league, but a good starter in this league.
his stats both before and after d'antoni still say he's only made 25 starts in the league.

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07-17-2012, 08:42 PM
  #324
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Why is it because of Anthony's play in April? Why would the Knicks have not made the playoffs in 2011 if the Anthony trade didn't happen?

I don't understand what being 4th among career PPG is supposed to mean? Why is that a good thing when it clearly doesn't equate to winning. He clearly doesn't equate to winning. He and his 4th career PPG equates to mediocrity, because aside from scoring, everything else about his game is mediocre, or simply non-existant.



Who said anything about greed? The point is, where do you want this team to go? If your goal is to get bounced from the playoffs in the first round and sell a lot of jerseys, then awesome, you've accomplished that, Dolan. If you want to change the culture of the team and build a winner, then clearly this was the wrong way to go. Anthony is just the newest Marbury and Steve Francis.



Any player could have said, "I think Carmelo Anthony is a huge piece of garbage for the way he treated his coaches, teammates, and the Nuggets as an organization," and been right about it. But I'm pretty sure no one did. No one is stupid enough to say something so unnecessary to the press. No one except Anthony.



How am I a front runner? The Spurs were my favorite Western Conference team my entire life, my 2nd favorite team after the Knicks. David Robinson was my favorite non-Knick player growing up. The Spurs went from being my 2nd favorite team to being my 1st favorite team.

You can keep calling it that, but I didn't give up on the Knicks. They gave up on me, and they gave up on you, too. It's not my fault you're a glutton for punishment. And I have no interest in bashing the Knicks. I want to be a Knicks fan. I want to like the Knicks, and I was starting to again. But then they threw all that progress out the window and showed their true colors. They're still about everything that turned me off to them in the first place. They don't care about building exciting, winning basketball teams.



Different time, different rules, different league. But the Knicks were a team that was greater than the sum of its parts. They stuck up for one another, they played as a team, they played hard every night, and they were always committed. No one on that team ever put themselves ahead of the team.



Awesome. Silly me, thinking that the season was 82 games plus playoffs, not the several weeks when some guys decide to give an actual effort.



Yes, it was very convenient for me that one of my closest relatives was slowly slipping away during a harrowing bout with cancer. So glad I could use that as an excuse to not post about the Knicks, who ended up doing worse than I predicted they would before the season began.



Actually, I didn't claim him to be one of the best defensive coaches of all-time. Three hall of fame NBA players made that claim on NBATV, and I was repeating that claim because I happen to agree with it, based on the defensive prowess of his Sonics teams. Regardless, the Nuggets and their horrible defense, not to mention league leading man games lost (EDIT: I remember hearing that on ESPN towards the end of the season but I can't find it online so disregard that for now although they certainly battled a lot of injuries this year, more than most teams), finished higher in a tougher Western Conference than the Knicks did in the East. The Nuggets also took a top 5 team in the league to 7 games.

I don't see how the injuries even mean that much, considering Anthony not only showed up looking like a fat load last season, but sabotaged his own team's chances at winning by playing like a schmuck until the moment D'Antoni quit. He showed up to play for several weeks. He might as well have been injured the whole time. It certainly didn't hurt the Knicks when he was out of the lineup. I'm pretty sure the Knicks woudln't have made the playoffs, wonderful Anthony April or not, if they didn't go on that nice streak when Anthony was out of the lineup.



Wonderful system or not, pretty tough to do anything when the top guy on your team is playing to get the coach fired.

And I think any attempt to judge D'Antoni's Knick tenure is as silly an idea as one can come up with, whether you want to praise him or flay him. At no point in his time with the Knicks did D'Antoni ever have a real team to work with. At no point did he ever not have to contend with either tons of cap space lost due to Thomas remnants or the Anthony move which clearly made no sense with what D'Antoni was trying to do. How anyone can say that D'Antoni sucked as a coach here is beyond me. The entire time he was here, he either had horrible teams, cap space being wasted, or players who either didn't gel with his system or actively worked to get him fired.
Quote:
Outside of Toney Douglas and Danilo Gallinari, can you name a single player that D'Antoni has had under him since he came to the Knicks who is a consistent performer defensively?

How exactly is Mike D'Antoni supposed to get Carmelo Anthony to play defense better when George Karl, one of the greatest defensive coaches in NBA history, couldn't. Maybe it isn't just on the coach?
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=190

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07-17-2012, 08:51 PM
  #325
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It's not worth the risk.

NBA teams hate doing the Knicks favors. That's why the Knicks have to overpay with draft picks in every trade they make.

If Lin is an average PG after two seasons, teams would ask the Knicks to surrender even more 1st round picks just to take him off their hands.

If they waive him, he wont get claimed if he sucks and is no longer a media darling.

The Knicks have a short window to build around Melo, Stat and Chandler. Three years and then they are all free agents. The only way they can try to come close to competing for a championship is to surround those three with quality, inexpensive role players and veterans.

If they signed Lin, they wouldnt be able to do that.

People complain about the Knicks' age, but it's the only way they can build a team with those three huge contracts. Adding a 4th contract would have been suicide.

The Knicks have their 1st round picks in 2013, 2015 and 2016. Just pray to God they find a way to hold onto them.

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