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Old
07-17-2012, 04:07 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
Convenient that you used a season where Colby Armstrong and David Moss only played 32 and 29 games.

How about career best seasons?

Armstrong- 40 points
Moss-39 points
Pyatt-37 points
Abdelkader-22 points

All 3 players are better all-around hockey players than Abdelkader as well, in my opinion.
If we were talking about signing these guys 4 or 5 years ago their career bests would be valid.

I used their most recent #'s as they are the most relevant to those players today.

Armstrong's health and general level of play was so bad last year that one of the worst teams in the league is paying him to play somewhere else.

I've got nothing against Pyatt or Moss though, I just think you're suffering from a little case of the grass being greener on the other side.

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07-17-2012, 04:33 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by FlashyG View Post
If we were talking about signing these guys 4 or 5 years ago their career bests would be valid.

I used their most recent #'s as they are the most relevant to those players today.

Armstrong's health and general level of play was so bad last year that one of the worst teams in the league is paying him to play somewhere else.

I've got nothing against Pyatt or Moss though, I just think you're suffering from a little case of the grass being greener on the other side.
It's more that I just don't see much in Abdelkader, except that he is homegrown.

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07-17-2012, 04:35 PM
  #53
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As a 4th-line winger, I like Abdelkader. As a 4th-line center, I don't really like Abdelkader, but I can grit my teeth and get along with it. Anything above the 4th-line? Abdelkader sucks. He has no offense, mediocre defense, and takes dumb penalties. He's an energy guy who hits, though not hard, and knows his way around the center position to a point. If he's playing over 12 minutes a game, he's being overused.

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07-17-2012, 04:53 PM
  #54
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Abdelkader made a favorable impression on Wings coach Mike Babcock while playing for Team USA at the World Championships in May, and the Wings are hoping that'll translate into further success for the coming season.
http://www.freep.com/article/2012071...r-Kyle-Quincey

Made a favorable impression on Babcock during the World's?? What has been going on the past 3 seasons where Babcock has watch him play everyday?

Why when Wings go off to the international tourneys they tend to have really, really good performances? Rafalski was the best DMan in the last Olympics. Kronwall was the best DMan in the '06 Worlds. Datsyuk, Franzen and Z had pretty good Worlds this past summer.

Maybe they perform better not playing for Babcock? Maybe they like not getting their lines juggled every two shifts? Maybe they're just surrounded by a deeper and more balanced team?

I just find it funny that Abdelkader had to go play for a different coach outside of the Wings system for Babcock to gain a favorable impression for him.

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07-17-2012, 06:32 PM
  #55
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I'm not a big fan of Abby, but I could live with him at $1.25m on the 4th line as a wing- I'm with Jaster and don't like seeing Justin playing center. Wish they brought in someone to play C on the 4th line to play with Abby and Tootoo, or would move Helm to the 4th line (clearly not happening given Babcock's bromance with Darren). I doubted that they would let Abby walk, but bringing him back means they have to move a few of the extra forwards they've accumulated, right? Can't demote 6 guys to the minors.

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07-17-2012, 06:49 PM
  #56
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I have a feeling I'm gonna be upset when these are done. If Gator gets 2m and Quincey 4m, then ugghhhh.

I mean right now we have plenty of cap space, but if the cap goes down then those deals start to look awful.

I'll predict 1.5 cap hit for Gator and 3.5 for KQ.

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07-17-2012, 07:25 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sepster View Post
http://www.freep.com/article/2012071...r-Kyle-Quincey

Made a favorable impression on Babcock during the World's?? What has been going on the past 3 seasons where Babcock has watch him play everyday?

Why when Wings go off to the international tourneys they tend to have really, really good performances? Rafalski was the best DMan in the last Olympics. Kronwall was the best DMan in the '06 Worlds. Datsyuk, Franzen and Z had pretty good Worlds this past summer.

Maybe they perform better not playing for Babcock? Maybe they like not getting their lines juggled every two shifts? Maybe they're just surrounded by a deeper and more balanced team?

I just find it funny that Abdelkader had to go play for a different coach outside of the Wings system for Babcock to gain a favorable impression for him.
I am a little miffed at these comments too. So i can guess that Babcock was really impressed with Brunner and Gator. Well if that is the case why isn't he pimping Tatar as a favorite to make the team, he was much more impressive than those two in my opinion. Just mystifying.

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07-17-2012, 07:31 PM
  #58
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Perhaps it's simply because Babcock saw Abby in another role there, or take on more responsibilities/bigger role on the ice. Things aren't always so black and white in that you don't always see everything right away. Try out different things, such as give the opportunity for other people to stand up and shine, and they just might. If you never give them that opportunity, then you can bet they wont be taking that.

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07-17-2012, 07:36 PM
  #59
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I doubted that they would let Abby walk, but bringing him back means they have to move a few of the extra forwards they've accumulated, right? Can't demote 6 guys to the minors.
This is the biggest question spinning in my head. We signed 3 depth players while going after the biggest FA's. To me, it showed that Holland was hedging his bets in case Plan A fell through, we'd have the warm bodies to pull off a trade or two. This is why it's so hard for me to believe the quotes where Kenny says he's happy with the team and doesn't plan on making any more moves. Things just don't add up.

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07-17-2012, 07:38 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
I am a little miffed at these comments too. So i can guess that Babcock was really impressed with Brunner and Gator. Well if that is the case why isn't he pimping Tatar as a favorite to make the team, he was much more impressive than those two in my opinion. Just mystifying.
Why would he pimp Tatar because you thought he looked good? That makes no sense.

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07-17-2012, 07:46 PM
  #61
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Why would he pimp Tatar because you thought he looked good? That makes no sense.
Tatar played top 6 minutes for the surprise silver medalists. I doubt I am the only one that feels this way.

He should be getting the same statements as Nyquist and Smith that he will be given every opportunity to make this team.

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07-17-2012, 07:47 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by garry1221 View Post

This is the biggest question spinning in my head. We signed 3 depth players while going after the biggest FA's. To me, it showed that Holland was hedging his bets in case Plan A fell through, we'd have the warm bodies to pull off a trade or two. This is why it's so hard for me to believe the quotes where Kenny says he's happy with the team and doesn't plan on making any more moves. Things just don't add up.
Well, our vast array of bottom 6 forwards are certainly warm bodies, but unless another GM buys into Kenny sending quantity their way in return for quality our way, I don't see it helping very much. He'll still have to move a guy like Flip plus said warm body or 2 and a prospect to get someone who can actually help us.

OR... maybe he's planning for a WWF Royal Rumble-style showdown at training camp to see who wins the coveted bottom six gigs. I could probably spend the better part of a day coming up with wrestlers that remind me of each Wing player, too And then it's obviously a "Loser leaves town" situation for the guys who don't nail down the spots on the NHL roster. This could actually be fun.

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07-17-2012, 07:53 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Tatar played top 6 minutes for the surprise silver medalists. I doubt I am the only one that feels this way.

He should be getting the same statements as Nyquist and Smith that he will be given every opportunity to make this team.
But this article wasn't about Nyquist, Smith or Tatar. It was about Abdelkader and Quincey. Helene St. James posting quotes about other players wouldn't fit that article.

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07-17-2012, 08:48 PM
  #64
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Well you guys are a whiny crabby bunch.

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07-17-2012, 09:28 PM
  #65
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As a 4th-line winger, I like Abdelkader. As a 4th-line center, I don't really like Abdelkader, but I can grit my teeth and get along with it. Anything above the 4th-line? Abdelkader sucks. He has no offense, mediocre defense, and takes dumb penalties. He's an energy guy who hits, though not hard, and knows his way around the center position to a point. If he's playing over 12 minutes a game, he's being overused.
I kinda agree with this. At wing I think everyone will agree hes much more effective. His offense on the fourth line was pretty good though. He only had 2 less points than Miller who played on the third line most of the year. Abby was stuck playing on a line with Homer and Emmerton and still put up 22 points.

For a guy on that bad of a line those are pretty solid numbers. Not a lot of fourth liners get much more than that. I wouldnt want to see him playing over 12 minutes a night really either.

But I kinda disagree on not hitting hard. Hes definitely had his fair share of big hits and for some reason people choose to ignore them, even though the wings are softer than baby **** and hes the only consistent hitter. He's not the biggest hitter in the league, but most would call him a pretty big hitter. I'm willing to post lots of video evidence of this as well

He also has the balls to drop the gloves which no one else really does either, even though he doesnt do great he can still be a guy to help handle the pests of the league

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07-17-2012, 09:49 PM
  #66
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Abdlekader has indeed had some big hits, no doubt. But given the hit totals he racks up, it's a pretty low %, imo. Regardless, I'm not really complaining about his hitting, it's definitely good enough for a 4th-line energy guy. The other parts of his game are what I'll complain about

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07-17-2012, 09:59 PM
  #67
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From Khan, on Quincey:

Quote:
They have been discussing one- and two-year deals. A one-year contract would enable Quincey, 26, to become an unrestricted free agent next summer.
http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index....y_close_t.html

My interpretation of this is that Quincey wants a one-year deal so that he can sooner reap the rewards of free agency. The Wings want the two-year deal (and probably even longer, but I'm guessing Quincey ruled out anything beyond 2 years) because he will obviously be cheaper that way, and they want him under control for as long as possible. But it seems clear Quincey has his eyes set on free agency, which leads me to believe that he's less likely to be a Wings long-term. Which makes the trade for him look even worse

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07-17-2012, 10:11 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaster View Post
From Khan, on Quincey:



http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index....y_close_t.html

My interpretation of this is that Quincey wants a one-year deal so that he can sooner reap the rewards of free agency. The Wings want the two-year deal (and probably even longer, but I'm guessing Quincey ruled out anything beyond 2 years) because he will obviously be cheaper that way, and they want him under control for as long as possible. But it seems clear Quincey has his eyes set on free agency, which leads me to believe that he's less likely to be a Wings long-term. Which makes the trade for him look even worse
It honestly can't get worse. Give him 1 year max salary and let him walk for a 12 year contract where he makes league minimum to play for CBJ and he turns into a Bobby Orr/Scott Stevens/Nick Lidstrom hybrid and it wouldn't be worse than this. Ken Holland made the mistake on deadline day. Counting down the days til Q's contract-to-be is up.

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07-17-2012, 11:10 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
I am a little miffed at these comments too. So i can guess that Babcock was really impressed with Brunner and Gator. Well if that is the case why isn't he pimping Tatar as a favorite to make the team, he was much more impressive than those two in my opinion. Just mystifying.
Honestly, if I had my way, Kindl would alreayd have 2 full seasons under his belt. Smith would have a full season under his belt. Nyquist would have been to the AHL a year earlier and been a fulltimer last season. Tatar would have been a full-timer this year. Andersson would have been a 4th line center last year.

People ought to check out the rookie scoring leaders in the NHL these last couple years. Plenty of teams who went further than us did so with rookies who achieved not very much at the AHL level.

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07-17-2012, 11:24 PM
  #70
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Honestly, if I had my way, Kindl would alreayd have 2 full seasons under his belt. Smith would have a full season under his belt. Nyquist would have been to the AHL a year earlier and been a fulltimer last season. Tatar would have been a full-timer this year. Andersson would have been a 4th line center last year.

People ought to check out the rookie scoring leaders in the NHL these last couple years. Plenty of teams who went further than us did so with rookies who achieved not very much at the AHL level.
Most of those rookies were higher caliber than our prospects though. More skilled and/or physically mature. Often top-20 picks. It's not really a fair comparison. I agree with you on Smith, but for a guy like Nyquist, for example, he needed that 3rd college year to get stronger, he even said so himself. As for Kindl, Tatar, and Andersson, I'm not convinced any of them are good enough to say they should have moved along faster than they have. Maybe Tatar.

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07-17-2012, 11:25 PM
  #71
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Honestly, if I had my way, Kindl would alreayd have 2 full seasons under his belt. Smith would have a full season under his belt. Nyquist would have been to the AHL a year earlier and been a fulltimer last season. Tatar would have been a full-timer this year. Andersson would have been a 4th line center last year.

People ought to check out the rookie scoring leaders in the NHL these last couple years. Plenty of teams who went further than us did so with rookies who achieved not very much at the AHL level.
I am with you on a lot of that. When they turned down the rumored Bogosian deal it was time to play Kindl if he was the sticking point and not the draft picks. Smith actually used a lot of last year to improve quite a bit, but he could have played. The Kindl one just stinks because sitting in the press box isn't doing him a ton of good at least when they slow play the other guys they are getting increased ice time and development.

Nyquist should have turned pro after his sophomore year, I wasn't a memeber here back then but I was upset about that also. Where was he going to improve from there his junior season at Maine was redundant and didn't do much for him. Andersson enjoyed a breakout last year he wasn't ready until at least mid-season in my opinion. But some of these guys got to play, if you want to say we don't give jobs away in Detroit that is fine, but when guys get beat out in competitions by younger players occasionally you have to go with that guy. They did that with Filppula, Z, Kronwall and it needs to be done a little more often with this current group coming through. Not everyone benefits from the slow play, I think Smith actually will, but if Jurco lights up the AHL next year he doesn't need to continue to sit down there because he has options.

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07-17-2012, 11:39 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Nyquist should have turned pro after his sophomore year, I wasn't a memeber here back then but I was upset about that also. Where was he going to improve from there his junior season at Maine was redundant and didn't do much for him.
Strength. He was too scrawny after his sophomore year. His junior year helped him out a lot. I watched many Maine games throughout his 3 years, and he was clearly stronger his junior year. After his sophomore year, he, the Wings, and all parties involved agreed that the best decision was to play a 3rd year in Orono. It was an easy call.

Smith is a guy who was probably brought along a little too slow, at least last year. But Nyquist has come along at the right pace, assuming he's a full-time Wing this year.

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07-18-2012, 12:10 AM
  #73
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From Khan, on Quincey:



http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index....y_close_t.html

My interpretation of this is that Quincey wants a one-year deal so that he can sooner reap the rewards of free agency. The Wings want the two-year deal (and probably even longer, but I'm guessing Quincey ruled out anything beyond 2 years) because he will obviously be cheaper that way, and they want him under control for as long as possible. But it seems clear Quincey has his eyes set on free agency, which leads me to believe that he's less likely to be a Wings long-term. Which makes the trade for him look even worse
Eh, Q is playing Holland like a violin. The playbook: play hardball and tell KH you only want a one year deal since he is not offering you your full value as a top 4 d-man who plays on the PP and PK. No doubt Holland will eventually cave and give Quincey whatever he wants. Say 5 years at $4.5 million? Q just needs to hold tight and Holland will cave. It sucks, really.

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07-18-2012, 12:25 AM
  #74
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Eh, Q is playing Holland like a violin. The playbook: play hardball and tell KH you only want a one year deal since he is not offering you your full value as a top 4 d-man who plays on the PP and PK. No doubt Holland will eventually cave and give Quincey whatever he wants. Say 5 years at $4.5 million? Q just needs to hold tight and Holland will cave. It sucks, really.
I doubt that is what is going on. If they are talking about 1- and 2-year deals, and are reportedly close to getting something done, then I tend to believe it will be a 1- or 2-year deal. I don't think Holland is or will be "caving."

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07-18-2012, 12:42 AM
  #75
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Most of those rookies were higher caliber than our prospects though. More skilled and/or physically mature. Often top-20 picks. It's not really a fair comparison. I agree with you on Smith, but for a guy like Nyquist, for example, he needed that 3rd college year to get stronger, he even said so himself. As for Kindl, Tatar, and Andersson, I'm not convinced any of them are good enough to say they should have moved along faster than they have. Maybe Tatar.
I don't agree.
Adam Henrique. 3rd round pick. 44 points in his draft year. 77 points in his fourth year of junior. 50 points as an AHL rookie. 50 points as 22 year old NHL rookie.
Andrew Shaw drafted as an overager at 20 years old. Never scored more than 50 points in the OHL. Scores 23 points in 38 AHL games and makes a decent contribution at the NHL level (identical to his AHL stats).

it doesn't seem to matter much if you're 10th overall like Cody Hodgson or a third rounder like Henrique.

This notion that you need to light up the AHL is completely and utterly bogus.

Mursak should have been in the NHL in 2010-11. Instead, we wasted him for a year so we could have Modano and Holmstrom et al.

Nyquist was 20 and nearly 21 at the end of his sophomore year at Maine. There was no need for him to go back to college after that.

We've got NHL talent in our system. And we keep bottle necking it.

If we're bottlenecking it for elite top sixers or even high caliber bottom sixers, I am all for it.

But if we're bottlenecking it to pay Sammuelsson $3M a year and to extent Bertuzzi for two more years, and for decent depth guys like Miller... I think we're shooting ourselves in the foot.

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