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Would a MLS team succeed in Winnipeg?

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Old
07-18-2012, 01:13 PM
  #26
BrokerD
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Originally Posted by Jet View Post
To each their own. I think the NFL is overhyped garbage.
How can you possibly say the NFL is garbage? I understand that everyone is entitled to their own opinion but really... garbage? I tried without success to watch the MB moose play once the jets left town and it was a real struggle... I enjoy watching the best of the best play. If you are saying that the NFL is garbage then what would the CFL be categorized as... 100% pure cow dung?

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07-18-2012, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by BrokerD View Post
How can you possibly say the NFL is garbage? I understand that everyone is entitled to their own opinion but really... garbage? I tried without success to watch the MB moose play once the jets left town and it was a real struggle... I enjoy watching the best of the best play. If you are saying that the NFL is garbage then what would the CFL be categorized as... 100% pure cow dung?
Pretty much where I stand. I wanna see the best vs the best.

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07-18-2012, 01:32 PM
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Reed Solomon
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I do think it could succeed in Winnipeg. People don't care about minor league soccer, but if there was something of a worthwhile level, I think Winnipeggers would be up for it. Would it hurt the Bombers? Possibly. Unless the Bombers had a piece of the action. Goldeyes would probably be fine, though. I mean really, how expensive is a goldeyes game? Soccer and Baseball don't have a huge overlap.

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07-18-2012, 02:33 PM
  #29
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It's very doubtful that MLS will ever expand to Winnipeg. Despite all of the immigrants coming from soccer-mad countries like Germany and the growth of the game in NA, the interest is not there to bring 15,000 people per game to allow to be viable. Plus, I'm sure many of those immigrants have no interest in the MLS game when they can watch the English Premier League on one of our many sports channels.

Also:

- It's doubtful MLS would be interested in establishing a franchise in Winnipeg. Their focus is on expanding the MLS footprint in the US-teams in place like the southeast (Atlanta, somewhere in the Carolinas or Florida), Detroit, Minneapolis, Phoenix and New York (2nd team).

- Winnipeg does not have a soccer-specific stadium. The length of the Canadian football field means stands in either end of the stadium would be 70-80 feet from the back of the nets. They would have to have some sort of retractable seats in the endzones to bring fans closer to the field (similar to basketball) to give the stadium more of a soccer-feel.

I think Division 2 NASL soccer would work in Winnipeg at the Waverly soccer complex with some upgrades. Most teams draw less than 5000 (including Edmonton) and play 15-16 home games. I'm sure that is manageable in Winnipeg.

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07-18-2012, 04:35 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burmistrov08 View Post
Soccer is on a big revival thanks to the MLS. Winnipeg may one day be a candidate for the NASL, however, Winnipeg has a stagnant population which hurts the city. If Winnipeg had a large growth spurt you will see soccer being spoken about. BTW, the Winnipeg Blue Bombers would proably LOVE to see someone pay rent on their facility.
You'd have to define what you mean by "stagnant" population. To imply stagnation, would be to imply no movement or barely any progression. I am not sure if you live in Winnipeg or not; in some ways Winnipeg is stagnant yes and I can understand how that conclusion can be made

In other ways, though, its been anything but sluggish over the last decade. If it were, I doubt we'd be on a Jets forum today, as much of financial prowess of Manitoba has happened since the original team left. Back during the early 90s, the city was very very very different than today.

I am not suggesting Winnipeg is a boom town; its not there yet (and might never get there) but to deny positive growth specific to the market is completely incorrect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gm0ney View Post
In what population range is Winnipeg one of the fastest growing? In 1996 Winnipeg had roughly the same census population as Edmonton. Now Edmonton is 148,000 ahead. Even Quebec City is growing faster...

Winnipeg trails every city in the 2001-2011 period.
Right now, Winnipeg (CMA - serviceable Winnipeg population) is the fastest growing city under a million people in Canada not in terms of rates but by actual net people (# of people moving). Its been that way for a few years now. So in that regard, Puck is correct.

If you look at rates, no, Winnipeg is not the fastest growing. But one cannot use rates as such a measurement of anything other than per-annum growth. In terms of net population, it has been up there by quite a bit, and is only growing more every year since 2005. To me, this is more important than a growth rate because we won't ever get as high as say Saskatoon or Regina anytime soon....but even if Saskatoon continues its growth rate and Winnipeg completely stopped growing, it would take ~60 years for Saskatoon to catch up in population.

From about 2006-2011, Winnipeg growth rates were double from 2001-2006 alone. Winnipeg has had a really rough few decades, and really wasn't growing for a long time. Things turned around in the early 2000's, Manitoba's economy shot up, and by the mid-2000s there were record numbers being set by Winnipeg.

By the 2001 census, predictions were that in 2011 Winnipeg - with its "stagnation" - was though to move down to even the #11 CMA spot. Its moved up to #7 (as of last July) and it should remain to be the largest CMA under a million in Canada by the end of this year, though Quebec City is also experiencing strong growth. Its going to be a battle.

As of July 1, 2011 the CMA was 762k, about 1,100 more people than Quebec City (761k) projected to pass 800k by the end of 2015. The city is well on track to meet and likely pass that estimation by a bit.

It can't be slower growing than Quebec City if it was less in population only a few years before and has now surpassed it. Hamilton is (very slightly) smaller than both, though I do not tend to view Hamilton in the same isolated light as Quebec City and Winnipeg since Hamilton is part of the GTHA, whereas Winnipeg & QC are the epicentres of their respective CMA regions.


http://www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quoti...0928a2-eng.htm

MB is actually one of the fastest growing right now.



3 [main] things wrong with your assessment:

1) You used Wikipedia (though its not a bad tool to use to gather general knowledge)

2) You used (last year) census numbers of city centres. Census, while accurate, is not the best representation of actual population. Its a census; they're more interested in finer details which population counts do not cover. Censuses are statistical evaluations that many people do not even take part under. They are more concerned with birth/death rates, immigration populations, gender stats, etc.... Since by law in Canada every citizen has to do a census, whereas with population counts no one partakes in them, they are used as the "official" numbers...but they are not the real numbers. The population estimates released by Stat Can are the best numbers to go by, because they actually count the people living in city's and CMAs. These are what stat can themselves consider to be more accurate, and with good reason: they are a more accurate way of counting the real population. You can read up on their site as to their explanations. Also they are done more frequently, which helps with consistency. (edit: to add, its called an estimate because the numbers are rounded i.e. 762,800 vs. 762,811 or 762,796)

3) You solely used city populations. Huge mistake in using that to show growth rates (as per your point) since the city of Vancouver population is over 600k. And its shown similar growth rates over the last decade as [those] Winnipeg [numbers].


Last edited by roccerfeller: 07-18-2012 at 04:51 PM. Reason: + quote
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Old
07-18-2012, 04:38 PM
  #31
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On topic, I think MLS in Winnipeg is a stretch at the moment, and my assessment is very akin to blueandgoldguy's

Its a nice thought, and i'd support it if it ever happens, but its not realistic since the market isn't quite there yet. Maybe in several decades we could revisit the idea. I think its a possibility, but more of a "one day possible" than right now possible.

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07-18-2012, 05:22 PM
  #32
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It would compete with the bombers and goldeyes.
I just dont see there being enough dollars going around.

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07-18-2012, 11:10 PM
  #33
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NASL is the place for winnipeg.....the stadium will not be a good soccer venue.

would be nice to upgrade the soccer complex for a second division team.

better yet, it wold be nice if a canadian league started up again....except for vatican city, we are practically the only country on earth without a national league.

3-4 MLS teams with canadian quotas, and a feeder canadian league...that is the best scenario.

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07-19-2012, 10:18 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet View Post
To each their own. I think the NFL is overhyped garbage.

I never used to like soccer but going to a couple of MLS games and being involved with WSA Winnipeg has really opened my eyes. I think we have enough of a immigrant presence in Winnipeg that comes from soccer countries (most popular sport in the world) that we have a real start of a fan base.

I have a friend who has season tickets to Toronto FC. He said their base is not recent immigrants - they all just follow their favourite teams from back home. But rather their fan base is homegrown Canadians.

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07-19-2012, 11:09 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Yukon Joe View Post
I have a friend who has season tickets to Toronto FC. He said their base is not recent immigrants - they all just follow their favourite teams from back home. But rather their fan base is homegrown Canadians.
Toronto has a big enough population to have enough home grown Canadians who are both damn proud of their city and appreciate the sport of soccer (or sport in general) to have a successful MLS team.

Winnipeg is just too small, with too many fair-weather sports fans who don't carry local pride and would rather glory hunt another city's or country's team, or another sport (NFL), and cheer from afar.

That's not an insult to Winnipeg, just an observation. Case in point so called "hockey mad" Winnipeg and the Manitoba Moose. The Moose were well supported, don't get me wrong, but I didn't see many "hockey mad" Winnipeggers taking up the opportunity to go down to their local rink and cheer on their local professional hockey team with local pride. I found it was mostly families and young kids, and that hockey mad and intensely locally proud fans were few and far between.

So I think seeing the MLS in Winnipeg would be a lot like seeing the Moose evolve into the Jets, if you will (this is a hypothetical .. though it must be said it was an evolution for the Chipmans etc.). You'd have to weather several years of lower division (NASL?) play with die-hard, proud, fans who appreciate the game, then take a chance like the Chipman's and make an upgrade to the "real thing". Then, in addition to the loyal fan base, you'd get a combination of fans of the sport who were glory hunting elsewhere and the fairweather fans who'll only jump on board when it's the "big" show (you know the type .. they score Jets tickets ... "woooooo", then spend the game texting and getting trashed and not even paying attention to the game).

So, yeah, 10-20 years away I'd say.

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07-19-2012, 11:14 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by BrokerD View Post
How can you possibly say the NFL is garbage? I understand that everyone is entitled to their own opinion but really... garbage? I tried without success to watch the MB moose play once the jets left town and it was a real struggle... I enjoy watching the best of the best play. If you are saying that the NFL is garbage then what would the CFL be categorized as... 100% pure cow dung?
It's my opinion. I've watched it on TV and live. I find it to be slow, unexciting trash. CFL might not have the better athletes and there are more mistakes but it is more exciting and wide open. I like a game where anything can happen.

There is no way I would sit through an NFL game again.

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07-19-2012, 11:16 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy View Post
It's very doubtful that MLS will ever expand to Winnipeg. Despite all of the immigrants coming from soccer-mad countries like Germany and the growth of the game in NA, the interest is not there to bring 15,000 people per game to allow to be viable. Plus, I'm sure many of those immigrants have no interest in the MLS game when they can watch the English Premier League on one of our many sports channels.

Also:

- It's doubtful MLS would be interested in establishing a franchise in Winnipeg. Their focus is on expanding the MLS footprint in the US-teams in place like the southeast (Atlanta, somewhere in the Carolinas or Florida), Detroit, Minneapolis, Phoenix and New York (2nd team).

- Winnipeg does not have a soccer-specific stadium. The length of the Canadian football field means stands in either end of the stadium would be 70-80 feet from the back of the nets. They would have to have some sort of retractable seats in the endzones to bring fans closer to the field (similar to basketball) to give the stadium more of a soccer-feel.

I think Division 2 NASL soccer would work in Winnipeg at the Waverly soccer complex with some upgrades. Most teams draw less than 5000 (including Edmonton) and play 15-16 home games. I'm sure that is manageable in Winnipeg.
It's funny, but a lot of what you are saying was said about the return of the NHL to Winnipeg.

I think we need to see how the city responds to the NASL when we get it (I think that will happen). That will be the determinant.

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07-19-2012, 11:24 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet View Post
It's funny, but a lot of what you are saying was said about the return of the NHL to Winnipeg.

I think we need to see how the city responds to the NASL when we get it (I think that will happen). That will be the determinant.
But, Winnipeg doesn't have a soccer market like it has a hockey market...

ROTJ =/= potential MLS


NASL, I could see

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07-19-2012, 11:31 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Yukon Joe View Post
I have a friend who has season tickets to Toronto FC. He said their base is not recent immigrants - they all just follow their favourite teams from back home. But rather their fan base is homegrown Canadians.
Soccer is also huge in [Southern] Ontario, which could explain a large home grown crowd

Soccer, in Manitoba and Ontario, cannot compare in terms of popularity

We seem to like Canadian football here more than they do though

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07-19-2012, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet View Post
It's my opinion. I've watched it on TV and live. I find it to be slow, unexciting trash. CFL not have the better athletes and there are more mistakes but it is more exciting and wide open. I like a game where anything can happen.

There is no way I would sit through an NFL game again.
If you are interested in a game with garbage refereeing accompanied with exciting wide open play save yourself 50 bucks and head to your local community club and watch kids play soccer... trust me, anything can happen

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07-19-2012, 11:54 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by BrokerD View Post
If you are interested in a game with garbage refereeing accompanied with exciting wide open play save yourself 50 bucks and head to your local community club and watch kids play soccer... trust me, anything can happen
You are welcome to have your opinion, as am I.

The CFL has been around a lot longer than the NFL and is full of tradition and epic games and rivalries. If you were alive and watched the glory days of the Bombers, you might have a different opinon of the league.

The NFL spends an obscene amount of money marketing the product and obviously it has paid off handsomely.

At any rate I apologise for helping derail this MLS thread with OT football talk.

I think a lot of things have to go right for the MLS to come to Winnipeg, and we are talking down the road for sure, but I hate just saying something like this couldn't happen because I think there is a possibility.

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07-19-2012, 12:01 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet View Post
It's funny, but a lot of what you are saying was said about the return of the NHL to Winnipeg.

I think we need to see how the city responds to the NASL when we get it (I think that will happen). That will be the determinant.
Oddly enough I've heard you guys are one of the relocation possibilities for the Carolina Railhawks if we end up getting an MLS franchise, which is looking like a strong possibility eventually given the demographics in this area and the popularity of the Railhawks. Though that's still a few years and even more expansion to the soccer stadium in Cary away. NASL is strongly interested in growing the footprint of the game, so our gain could end up being your guys gain as well. Here's hoping that's the case at least.

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07-19-2012, 12:04 PM
  #43
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Oddly enough I've heard you guys are one of the relocation possibilities for the Carolina Railhawks if we end up getting an MLS franchise, which is looking like a strong possibility eventually given the demographics in this area and the popularity of the Railhawks. Though that's still a few years and even more expansion to the soccer stadium in Cary away. NASL is strongly interested in growing the footprint of the game, so our gain could end up being your guys gain as well. Here's hoping that's the case at least.
That's very exciting. I know some of the players in trying to bring pro soccer to Winnipeg and they are very passionate about the sport. I have really grown to appreciate the game over the past few years.

PS, if we do get the Rail Hawks, I hope we keep that name. It's a great nick and our city was built on the railway so it makes perfect sense.

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07-19-2012, 02:35 PM
  #44
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Personally think that soccer hasn't caught on with the immigrant population in north america because the soccer presented here is too americanized. They call it soccer instead of football. They have playoffs at the end of a season in which you play the season to qualify for. The teams have north american style names with silly logos. Although that is changing a bit as of late with teams adding FC or "Real Salt Lake" (which makes no sense since real mean royal. Nothing royal about salt lake).

I think if they implmented a relagation/promotion system, with a staight season table and a seperate cup competition ex-pats would pay more attention.

At least the MLS is better than the old NASL (the one from teh 70's 80's with pele in NY). The MLS is santctioned by FIFA the old NASL wasn't so they did crazy things. ie hockey style offside line, hockey style shootous instead of penalty kicks and kick ins instead or throw ins.

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07-19-2012, 03:10 PM
  #45
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there is a cup system here in the US (http://www.usopencup.com/) and there's a CONCACAF Champions League, though that receives a lot less attention then the UEFA CL for obvious reasons. I think there's a cup in Canada as well but I'm not sure how extensive it is.

FWIW being at the Railhawks upset of LA at this years cup was the greatest game I've been to outside the World Cup in 94.

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07-19-2012, 03:29 PM
  #46
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there is a cup system here in the US (http://www.usopencup.com/) and there's a CONCACAF Champions League, though that receives a lot less attention then the UEFA CL for obvious reasons. I think there's a cup in Canada as well but I'm not sure how extensive it is.

FWIW being at the Railhawks upset of LA at this years cup was the greatest game I've been to outside the World Cup in 94.

But I mean immigrants are used a single table and the winner of the table being crowned league champions. not a table to determine playoff rankings then playoffs to determine the league champion. The set up is very north american

I think the US open cup only exists in its current format cause its so old and was started before the influence of the north american sports format of leagues followed by playoffs. The stanley cup used to be a challenge cup for example.

As cool in theory as the US open cup is (I think its like the FA cup in Britain) there is no coverage of it anywhere. Are the games even televised? And I thought the MLS generally sent their B teams to play in it

I think it'd be so cool for the MLS/ NASL to form into a relagation/ promotion league but cause of expansion fees and the like it'll never happen. Although I heard an interview with Drew Carey once saying he'd love to see it happen (I think hes part owner of the Seattle team)

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07-19-2012, 04:05 PM
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Figured I'd toss my 2 cents in. Soccer is fairly popular among my friends, it seems like many of them like soccer more than hockey for example. And whenever the world cup or euro are going on you see flags EVERYWHERE in support of their countries.

Maybe MLS would work one day down the road, I sure hope it does.

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07-19-2012, 04:27 PM
  #48
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But I mean immigrants are used a single table and the winner of the table being crowned league champions. not a table to determine playoff rankings then playoffs to determine the league champion. The set up is very north american

I think the US open cup only exists in its current format cause its so old and was started before the influence of the north american sports format of leagues followed by playoffs. The stanley cup used to be a challenge cup for example.

As cool in theory as the US open cup is (I think its like the FA cup in Britain) there is no coverage of it anywhere. Are the games even televised? And I thought the MLS generally sent their B teams to play in it

I think it'd be so cool for the MLS/ NASL to form into a relagation/ promotion league but cause of expansion fees and the like it'll never happen. Although I heard an interview with Drew Carey once saying he'd love to see it happen (I think hes part owner of the Seattle team)
Agreed on basically all points there. Would be nice if the Railhawks had 2 championships (finished top in the NASL the last 2 seasons) as well. But even as well supported as the teams in Rochester, Charleston, Carolina, and some other markets are I'd have to think the support would be even better if it was known that they would have a good shot at moving up to MLS the following season based on their performance.

And yep, he's one of the Sounders co-owners along with Paul Allen.

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07-19-2012, 09:09 PM
  #49
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Doesn't Winnipeg have a professional team? WSA Winnipeg? How are the crowds?

http://wsawinnipeg.ca/


What happened to the Winnipeg Alliance FC? is that indoor soccer?

No, doesn't seem like good fit at this time.

Edit
I never knew we even had such a team. And their season is now over!

People need to know that MLS is sponsored by USA Soccer (I believe that's the name of the governing body). Each team loses TONS of money. They had to operate the league to get the World Cup. There are lots of companies that underwrite the losses simply because soccer is so popular as a participaction sport.

MLS allowed TFC to join due to an arrangement with Soccer Canada. They negotiated at that time for the eventual addition of Vancouver and Montreal. Those teams don't get money from USA Soccer. I doubt that Soccer Canada can find cash to subsidize any more teams than at present. That's what killed the Canadian Soccer League all those years ago, right after the Fury won it.

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07-19-2012, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by cheswick View Post
Personally think that soccer hasn't caught on with the immigrant population in north america because the soccer presented here is too americanized. They call it soccer instead of football. They have playoffs at the end of a season in which you play the season to qualify for. The teams have north american style names with silly logos. Although that is changing a bit as of late with teams adding FC or "Real Salt Lake" (which makes no sense since real mean royal. Nothing royal about salt lake).

I think if they implmented a relagation/promotion system, with a staight season table and a seperate cup competition ex-pats would pay more attention.

At least the MLS is better than the old NASL (the one from teh 70's 80's with pele in NY). The MLS is santctioned by FIFA the old NASL wasn't so they did crazy things. ie hockey style offside line, hockey style shootous instead of penalty kicks and kick ins instead or throw ins.
MLS hasn't caught on significantly with immigrant populations because they still hold a lot of loyalty to their old European/South American/Asian football clubs. Regardless, MLS has been growing by leaps and bounds in the past decade.

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