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2014 - Canada Roster Discussion (Part III)

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Old
07-19-2012, 07:58 AM
  #76
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Darren Helm (great skater) Bergeron - Seguin.
Darren Helm... Ewww... Can't see it happening but... I rikey. I rikey arot!


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07-19-2012, 08:05 AM
  #77
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Darren Helm... Ewww... Can't see it happening but... I rikey. I rikey arot!

just think about it, Babcock is his coach, so there's that relationship there. He's great on the PK, 13th forward, slot him in there next to Bergeron on the PK unit. He'll gladly accept the role without any ego. He does have experience with Hockey Canada, won a gold medal in 07 in Sweden I believe. I've heard it whispered that Helm is a real possibility.

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07-19-2012, 08:25 AM
  #78
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What do you think Halls chances are?

While his stats to this point wouldn't suggest that he is any kind of lock I think his speed and drive for the net being that we are playing on the big ice is gonna make him a slam dunk come 2014.


I think the way he plays and his strengths as a player are going to insure he's on that team.


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Have to agree with you there. Except I do think Neal is in the conversation...not sure if he makes it, but one of the TOP 3 Left Wingers in the game will at least get him some discussion. RNH doesn't make it, too young and too many centers ahead of him. Benn is a long shot. I don't like his skating on big ice, so unless he turns into a 50 goal scorer, he's a long shot. Hall and Seguin will be an interesting debate for sure. If they take both, I see Hall-Tavares-Eberle as a 3rd line. He's an interesting idea I think that has been floated out there... Darren Helm (great skater) Bergeron - Seguin. You know Babcock will want to take some players he trusts to play a role, and Helm is his guy.

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07-19-2012, 09:15 AM
  #79
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What do you think Halls chances are?

While his stats to this point wouldn't suggest that he is any kind of lock I think his speed and drive for the net being that we are playing on the big ice is gonna make him a slam dunk come 2014.


I think the way he plays and his strengths as a player are going to insure he's on that team.
Barring injury or an unlikely dip in his development, I think he's a lock for exactly your reasons. He's so fast and aggressive, and he'll have chemistry with Eberle, who I think is a lock, and maybe even RNH, if he makes it.

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07-19-2012, 09:29 AM
  #80
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Yep, Halls on the team.

I agree Hopkins is the biggest reach of those three too, would be surprised if he's on it though it's not impossible.

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Barring injury or an unlikely dip in his development, I think he's a lock for exactly your reasons. He's so fast and aggressive, and he'll have chemistry with Eberle, who I think is a lock, and maybe even RNH, if he makes it.

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07-19-2012, 09:31 AM
  #81
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i'm with Macman on Hall's chances of making it. I think a Hall-Tavares-Eberle line would be dynamic. Provided of course Hall keeps up his end of the bargin, that is he stay's healthy all season and is a 35+ plus goal scorer, and continues playing well in the first 3 months of the 2013-14 season leading up to the naming of the team. There are other young speedy left wingers who look to be there, most notably Evander Kane.

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07-19-2012, 11:12 AM
  #82
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i'm with Macman on Hall's chances of making it. I think a Hall-Tavares-Eberle line would be dynamic. Provided of course Hall keeps up his end of the bargin, that is he stay's healthy all season and is a 35+ plus goal scorer, and continues playing well in the first 3 months of the 2013-14 season leading up to the naming of the team. There are other young speedy left wingers who look to be there, most notably Evander Kane.
I'd rather see Tavares playing LW on the international ice surface; he's had a lot of success playing there the last few WC's. Hall should be there for the reasons mentioned above.

Hall - Crosby - Perry
Tavares - Stamkos - Giroux
Benn - Toews - Nash
Richards - Bergeron - Seguin

Ederle, Skinner, Sharp are in the mix for the 13th forward, but what's most critical for that position is versatility, which Sharp has. Perry needs to bounce back to 40 goal form or his spot will get taken by Eberle or Skinner - right now, I have him there b/c he's one of our few elite natural RWers and he was great in the medal round in 2010.

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07-19-2012, 11:45 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by 86Habs View Post
I'd rather see Tavares playing LW on the international ice surface; he's had a lot of success playing there the last few WC's. Hall should be there for the reasons mentioned above.

Hall - Crosby - Perry
Tavares - Stamkos - Giroux
Benn - Toews - Nash
Richards - Bergeron - Seguin

Ederle, Skinner, Sharp are in the mix for the 13th forward, but what's most critical for that position is versatility, which Sharp has. Perry needs to bounce back to 40 goal form or his spot will get taken by Eberle or Skinner - right now, I have him there b/c he's one of our few elite natural RWers and he was great in the medal round in 2010.

I get what you are saying about using Tavares on the wing. Sure, there are a few more centers who will be playing out of position.

but not really impressed with your lineup overall

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07-19-2012, 11:57 AM
  #84
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I get what you are saying about using Tavares on the wing. Sure, there are a few more centers who will be playing out of position.

but not really impressed with your lineup overall
Care to elaborate?

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07-19-2012, 12:25 PM
  #85
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Care to elaborate?
Well, there are certain players based on their production in the NHL you have to include on the team despite certain flaws in their game, and in this case, poor skaters on big ice. players like Tavares, Giroux, Perry all of these players are not the best of skaters. Now you want to add to that another by excluding Eric Staal for Jamie Benn. Benn is not a great skater not a big ice player in my estimation and he doesn't score as much as Staal. I admit Staal had a bad year and if he isn't playing a better overall game by December 2013, I'd say his spot on the team is in question and I would consider replacing him, just not not with Jamie Benn.

You have Perry making it. I have Perry at 50/50 and certainly not a lock based on his skating. If he's not a 40 goal scorer than he's not on the team.

I'm not sure I get your thinking why Hall would be on the 1st line with Crosby over Neal who is the 2nd highest scoring left winger in the league. Would you care to elaborate on your thinking there?

Skinner, was not really impressed with him in his 2nd season and didn't think he played all that well at the World Championships this past May, except for the one goal he scored against Finland...Skinner is pretty much left to his one signature move coming down the wing and trying the spinorama around the d and racing in for a shot on net. wasn't really all that effective.. Unless he plays on a line with the Staal brothers in Carolina and they are lights out impressive, I'd say Skinner doesn't make it. he has a lot of development to do.

If players are equal stats wise... Benn scores 40 Stall scores 38. I'm taking Staal over Benn, experience + better skater.. and besides, my 3rd line will probably be Staal-Towes-Nash. If your playing Tavares on the wing, then he's on Crosby's line and Stamkos becomes your 2nd line center.

so, the major reason why I wasn't impressed with your lineup - too many poor skaters.

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07-19-2012, 12:32 PM
  #86
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Care to elaborate?
I think Hall will be there...just not in the number 1 left wing position... and I agree with you on Sharp. I think Hall would be more familiar playing with Tavares and Ebbs. (Tavares and Eberle again 2 players not the best skaters... but how do you exclude them? Ebbs is quite frankly Captain Clutch.

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07-19-2012, 12:36 PM
  #87
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When you think about it, Towes and Ebbs on a line together would be something... I've never seen two more cooler dudes under pressure then Captain Serious and Captain Clutch.

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07-19-2012, 01:13 PM
  #88
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Well, there are certain players based on their production in the NHL you have to include on the team despite certain flaws in their game, and in this case, poor skaters on big ice. players like Tavares, Giroux, Perry all of these players are not the best of skaters. Now you want to add to that another by excluding Eric Staal for Jamie Benn. Benn is not a great skater not a big ice player in my estimation and he doesn't score as much as Staal. I admit Staal had a bad year and if he isn't playing a better overall game by December 2013, I'd say his spot on the team is in question and I would consider replacing him, just not not with Jamie Benn.

You have Perry making it. I have Perry at 50/50 and certainly not a lock based on his skating. If he's not a 40 goal scorer than he's not on the team.

I'm not sure I get your thinking why Hall would be on the 1st line with Crosby over Neal who is the 2nd highest scoring left winger in the league. Would you care to elaborate on your thinking there?

Skinner, was not really impressed with him in his 2nd season and didn't think he played all that well at the World Championships this past May, except for the one goal he scored against Finland...Skinner is pretty much left to his one signature move coming down the wing and trying the spinorama around the d and racing in for a shot on net. wasn't really all that effective.. Unless he plays on a line with the Staal brothers in Carolina and they are lights out impressive, I'd say Skinner doesn't make it. he has a lot of development to do.

If players are equal stats wise... Benn scores 40 Stall scores 38. I'm taking Staal over Benn, experience + better skater.. and besides, my 3rd line will probably be Staal-Towes-Nash. If your playing Tavares on the wing, then he's on Crosby's line and Stamkos becomes your 2nd line center.

so, the major reason why I wasn't impressed with your lineup - too many poor skaters.
That's all fair - I was typing on an iPad so didn't have the patience to write up a more thoughtful analysis. A few points:

- Perry is 50-50 for me, as well - we can agree on that. I'm assuming he gets back to 40 goals and if he does, he's a lock IMO given his pretty unique skillset. But, if he gets back to 40 goals, Getzlaf likely gets back to 80+ points, and we'll need to bring him into the discussion as well. If he doesn't, there's a RW spot up in the air - for Eberle, Skinner, maybe even Iginla or St. Louis (though I doubt they'd be in the mix). Eberle probably has an inside track on a roster spot given his experience with Hockey Canada.

- I wouldn't call Tavares or certainly Giroux "poor" skaters on big ice, but they need to be there, yes. I prefer them both on the wing, but both have the ability to play center if need be. Crosby, Stamkos, Toews, and Bergeron are my centers, at this point. I'm looking to balance out the scoring lines by moving Giroux and Stamkos off of Crosby's line (who's more than capable of carrying a scoring line by himself with two "non-superstars") and onto their own scoring line.

- Benn vs. Neal. I'll just say I'm more impressed by Benn's performance than Neal's, and he probably has a more promising upward trajectory than Neal does at this point - that's just my opinion. Sure, he's not a fantastic skater, but he would add a physical dimension to the forward group that, aside from Richards, might be lacking. There's obviously an element of projection/forecasting involved as well - Benn is still developing and hasn't had the luxury of playing with great wingers in Dalls. Neal's 40-goal campaign was definitely nice, but having Malkin as his center certainly helped and he was pretty undisciplined in the playoffs against Philly. He hadn't shown 40-goal potential before, really, at least not in the current low-scoring state of affairs. I actually had him in my lineup until the playoffs, TBH. But, having said that, a few more 35+ goal seasons + some time playing with Crosby might lock up the LW spot for him alongside Crosby - chemistry matters. Benn needs a 35+ goal season this season, and either a strong playoff run or an outstanding WHC's if Dallas doesn't get there. Consider him my dark horse.

- Staal: Wasn't impressed by his 2010 Olympic performance, and he was given ample opportunity to shine playing alongside Sid. Had a sub-par season (for him). On paper, he should be a lock, and he might still be in Hockey Canada's view. He may bounce back, he may not. He's really only had one truly elite season and playoff. And, he doesn't really add anything unique to the forward group that the others don't. Still, a Toews-Staal-Nash would be a very experienced 3rd line, for sure. In my view he'd more likely he'd fit in well as the 13th forward since he can pretty much do everything reasonably well.

- Skinner: I only named him as a possibility for the 13th forward spot; again, we'll likely go with a more versatile forward (Sharp? E. Staal?), so he's a bit of a long-shot. I like his speed and mature game for a youngster though, so we'll have to see on him.

- We can probably agree on the fact that Hall can fly down the wing - he's a dynamic skater who's still rounding out his overall offensive game. I think he'll be a lock by 2014 and, again, going back to balancing-out the forward group, seems to have the kind of game that would complement Sid well - especially if Sid ends up flanked by someone like Eberle or Perry, neither of whom are the best skaters. He'd pretty much look good on any of the top 3 lines, though JT playing with Sid could be lethal, too.

Overall, we have a lot of really young forwards who are still developing and a lot of this (while fun) involves a significant amount of uncertainty. Hall, Eberle, Seguin, Benn, Neal, Skinner, Kane, Tavares, RNH, Duchene....there's some risk that these guys won't develop like we project them to, but there's also a ton of upside. All we can be sure of is that the lineups that we put forward today won't look like the eventual lineup that we'll ice in 2014. And, we haven't even talked about Getzlaf, Brad Richards, Jordan Staal....

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07-19-2012, 01:55 PM
  #89
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Makes sense. but still, as of today I'm still taking Staal over Benn.. but nothing is ever written in stone.

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07-19-2012, 02:54 PM
  #90
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Makes sense. but still, as of today I'm still taking Staal over Benn.. but nothing is ever written in stone.
Fair enough, and I probably would too - today. He's the safe pick.

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07-19-2012, 06:59 PM
  #91
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What if Crosby's concussion problems continue and he can't go?(God forbid)

Anyone care to give their forward mix if that happens?

I would imagine RNH chances go way up if this scenario takes place.

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07-19-2012, 07:53 PM
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What if Crosby's concussion problems continue and he can't go?(God forbid)

Anyone care to give their forward mix if that happens?

I would imagine RNH chances go way up if this scenario takes place.
No doubt RNH's chances go up, Getzlaf's and Eric Staal's too. Essentially we'd need to replace our top scoring threat and probable captain - not an easy task.

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07-20-2012, 12:28 AM
  #93
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For sure.

We're in a better position of depth to cover a loss like that then the other teams but you never can totally cover a loss of a player like Crosby.



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No doubt RNH's chances go up, Getzlaf's and Eric Staal's too. Essentially we'd need to replace our top scoring threat and probable captain - not an easy task.

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07-20-2012, 06:08 AM
  #94
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Neal-Crosby-Giroux
Stamkos-Tavares-St Louis
Benn-Toews-Perry
Kane-Bergeron-Doan

Weber-Doughty
Keith-Letang
Girardi-Pietrangelo

Smith
Luongo
Price

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07-21-2012, 03:29 AM
  #95
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Hall is not automatic for the team by any stretch. He needs to stay healthy for a year and put up numbers at the same time.

He can have all the skill and drive in the world...but he hasn't registered enough pro-level performance to justify his inclusion. At this point, Perry is an easy choice over him.

Ppl need to keep reminding themselves it's not a prospects game or a talent showcase...or, at least, i hope it's not.

We need people who will be able to show up and put down results in a brief period of time and under heavy pressure. Having, in the long run, a *high ceiling* is not what's important.

re: seguin - unless he reaches a new level this year, he should not be on the team. As skilled as he is, and as much as he's improving quickly, there's still a level of timidity to his game (which is completely to be expected given his age and level of experience). I fear he will look lost at a tournament like this.

I've thought about it more and wouldn't mind Getzlaf and Perry on the team. Getzlaf is certainly no stranger to stupidity in international tournaments...but he's strong and powerful enough that if he can pick up his game he should be an effective presence. Same with Perry.

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Neal-Crosby-Giroux
Stamkos-Tavares-St Louis
Benn-Toews-Perry
Kane-Bergeron-Doan

Weber-Doughty
Keith-Letang
Girardi-Pietrangelo

Smith
Luongo
Price
This team misses the medal round.

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07-21-2012, 04:42 AM
  #96
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[QUOTE=UsernameWasTaken;52783867]Hall is not automatic for the team by any stretch. He needs to stay healthy for a year and put up numbers at the same time.

He can have all the skill and drive in the world...but he hasn't registered enough pro-level performance to justify his inclusion. At this point, Perry is an easy choice over him.

Ppl need to keep reminding themselves it's not a prospects game or a talent showcase...or, at least, i hope it's not.

We need people who will be able to show up and put down results in a brief period of time and under heavy pressure. Having, in the long run, a *high ceiling* is not what's important.

re: seguin - unless he reaches a new level this year, he should not be on the team. As skilled as he is, and as much as he's improving quickly, there's still a level of timidity to his game (which is completely to be expected given his age and level of experience). I fear he will look lost at a tournament like this.

I've thought about it more and wouldn't mind Getzlaf and Perry on the team. Getzlaf is certainly no stranger to stupidity in international tournaments...but he's strong and powerful enough that if he can pick up his game he should be an effective presence. Same with Perry.





I'd rather leave any decision on Getzlaf until December 2013. If he's skating better (I think he's still hampered from a left ankle injury that's a few years old) and is a 30-40 guy next season (which is what he should be considering who he's got playing on his wing) then I'm not one to include him just because he has experience. We got all the players we need from an experience perspective. Perry I'm 50/50.

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07-21-2012, 08:31 AM
  #97
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But when we are talking about a player like Hall we are not basing his inclusion on high ceiling, at least I know i'm not.

We're talking about bringing the type of player whose skill set fits in with the type of mix and team we will need to bring to Sochi in order to defend gold. I and it appears some others think his does.

We can't make the mistake of just taking guys "who have the experience" but may not be best suited to the type of game and opposition that we will face over there.

Sure, some experience will be necessary over there but we have enough of those guys who also have the skill set that is paramount for the the big ice game so that we should be able to mix guys like Hall and what he brings in despite him not having nhl playoff rounds or world championship golds under their belts.

We need a different game plan then what we brought to torino, a different game plan then what we brought to Vancouver for that matter.

We can't go with the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mindset this time around.

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Originally Posted by UsernameWasTaken View Post
Hall is not automatic for the team by any stretch. He needs to stay healthy for a year and put up numbers at the same time.

He can have all the skill and drive in the world...but he hasn't registered enough pro-level performance to justify his inclusion. At this point, Perry is an easy choice over him.

Ppl need to keep reminding themselves it's not a prospects game or a talent showcase...or, at least, i hope it's not.

We need people who will be able to show up and put down results in a brief period of time and under heavy pressure. Having, in the long run, a *high ceiling* is not what's important.

re: seguin - unless he reaches a new level this year, he should not be on the team. As skilled as he is, and as much as he's improving quickly, there's still a level of timidity to his game (which is completely to be expected given his age and level of experience). I fear he will look lost at a tournament like this.

I've thought about it more and wouldn't mind Getzlaf and Perry on the team. Getzlaf is certainly no stranger to stupidity in international tournaments...but he's strong and powerful enough that if he can pick up his game he should be an effective presence. Same with Perry.



This team misses the medal round.


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07-22-2012, 12:24 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by UsernameWasTaken View Post
Hall is not automatic for the team by any stretch. He needs to stay healthy for a year and put up numbers at the same time.

He can have all the skill and drive in the world...but he hasn't registered enough pro-level performance to justify his inclusion. At this point, Perry is an easy choice over him.

Ppl need to keep reminding themselves it's not a prospects game or a talent showcase...or, at least, i hope it's not.

We need people who will be able to show up and put down results in a brief period of time and under heavy pressure. Having, in the long run, a *high ceiling* is not what's important.

re: seguin - unless he reaches a new level this year, he should not be on the team. As skilled as he is, and as much as he's improving quickly, there's still a level of timidity to his game (which is completely to be expected given his age and level of experience). I fear he will look lost at a tournament like this.

I've thought about it more and wouldn't mind Getzlaf and Perry on the team. Getzlaf is certainly no stranger to stupidity in international tournaments...but he's strong and powerful enough that if he can pick up his game he should be an effective presence. Same with Perry.



This team misses the medal round.
....because?
Crosby and Neal with chemistry and Neal is among the top goal scorers while having a physical game. Stamkos and St Louis with chemistry and I think Tavares would work very well with them too. 3rd line would be a good checking/defensive line and along with the 4th line too.

Defense is incredible in my opinion.

If Smith keeps up the play he showed all this year while being on a weak team, imagine him on a good team. Quick and Lundqvist would be rivaled by him.

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07-22-2012, 06:53 AM
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....because?
Crosby and Neal with chemistry and Neal is among the top goal scorers while having a physical game. Stamkos and St Louis with chemistry and I think Tavares would work very well with them too. 3rd line would be a good checking/defensive line and along with the 4th line too.

Defense is incredible in my opinion.

If Smith keeps up the play he showed all this year while being on a weak team, imagine him on a good team. Quick and Lundqvist would be rivaled by him.
Doan shouldn't be anywhere near the 2014 Olympic team - this isn't 2004 any more. Mike Richards was tremendous in 2010 for us and was just a key player in the Cup winning team - why would you leave him off? I love MSL, but he'll be a bit long in the tooth by 2014 and didn't make the 2010 team in the middle of a huge season for him so I'm pretty certain he won't make the cut next time around either.

I'm not sold on Girardi being an Olympic-quality defenseman, but we're two years out so who knows. Marc Staal IMO has a better shot at making our D corps off the Rangers defense.

Goaltending - who knows. Hopefully Price is ready to be the man by 2014, or Smith proves he's more than a one-shot wonder. We won't know until December 2013.

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07-22-2012, 08:25 AM
  #100
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Doan shouldn't be anywhere near the 2014 Olympic team - this isn't 2004 any more. Mike Richards was tremendous in 2010 for us and was just a key player in the Cup winning team - why would you leave him off? I love MSL, but he'll be a bit long in the tooth by 2014 and didn't make the 2010 team in the middle of a huge season for him so I'm pretty certain he won't make the cut next time around either.

I'm not sold on Girardi being an Olympic-quality defenseman, but we're two years out so who knows. Marc Staal IMO has a better shot at making our D corps off the Rangers defense.

Goaltending - who knows. Hopefully Price is ready to be the man by 2014, or Smith proves he's more than a one-shot wonder. We won't know until December 2013.
Doan fills a 4th line role very well. He brings tons of leadership, plays very physical and is good defensively too. St Louis brings leadership too, not bad defensively, amazing skater even at his age and has that chemistry with Stamkos, which is pretty key. Things may change, but M.Richards just had a down year and at this point Bergeron and Toews fill his role better.

A huge key to the Rangers success was Girardi. Incredible shotblocker and very physical and overall elite defensively. He's not terrible offensively either, but he'll be in a shutdown role anyways. It was a down/injured year for M.Staal so he'll likely bounce back, but at this point Girardi is ahead.

Goaltending is definitely a weak spot for Canada, but as I said before, if Smith is still playing like he did this year by 2014, Canada will have just as good of goaltending as anyone else. I'd make a case for Smith being better than Quick and Lundqvist this past season and playoffs cause the other 2 had much better teams in front of them, but Smith was a bigger contributer to his team.

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