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The MLD 2012 Thread I

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Old
07-19-2012, 11:33 AM
  #226
Canadiens1958
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Scrutiny

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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Yeah, that's definitely what this is about.

If your player can't stand up to some scrutiny, don't pick him!

You and I are just two of the three most vocal guys here, and the two whose feathers get the most ruffled when an inferior player gets selected hundreds of picks too early. This isn't the place to select your "pet" players; treat it as a competitive research project. I'm sorry Hobnobs couldn't take the heat. We will have to contact GMM, as per your PM to me.

I am glad jkrx stuck around.
Scrutiny in the context of a complete team is one thing, at random without any insight into how the team will come together is pointless at best and self-serving at worst.

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07-19-2012, 12:58 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
I contemplating leaving as I thought you were starting taking cheapshots at the player in question. Saying things like he was the worst turnover machine is hogwash and something that can't be countered as official stats wasnt kept until the '03 season. I think my grandson took it abit too far but inherited more than just intrest for hockey from me (temper).

Also Tverdovsky is hardly his pet.
Were those my words?

Also, giveaway stats were kept and published first in the 1998 season… but they have been whitewashed by the NHL. They can still be found in the 2003 Guide and Record book going back 4 seasons. The 1998 ones are only in the 1998-99 THN yearbook.

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It's the Minor League Draft; not the All Time Draft. Opinions vary widely once we get to this level and a perceived bad pick in round 2 can just be stuck on your bottom pairing and used on the powerplay without much harm done
Exactly.

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Scrutiny in the context of a complete team is one thing, at random without any insight into how the team will come together is pointless at best and self-serving at worst.
Can you indulge us, please? If someone picks a player who is clearly inferior to other players being selected now and many others still available, how is it “pointless” to say so? And how is it “self-serving”? What was in it for me to do so? Apparently all I did was start a blood feud, so please explain how that is self-serving.

And why is scrutinizing a player individually without team context not valid? If a player is not good enough, he is not good enough. If it turns out that this inferior player gets used as a #6 and PP specialist, then in the team context he is being used properly, but the question still remains, Why would you pick him so early?

That is why we are all here, to ask questions like that.


Last edited by seventieslord: 07-19-2012 at 01:13 PM.
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07-19-2012, 12:58 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I'm seeing 1978-1982, personally. The three years he was in the NHL (two of them significant, one written off fairly as an adjustment year), and the two years prior in Finland, where he had his highest point totals. (I wouldn't consider age 32-33 in 1986 and 1987 among them; it's very doubtful he was as good then as he was when younger, just knowing what we know about all players of that era, and seeing how the competition level of these European leagues all seemed to drop off a bit starting then).

Not sure what 50 WHA points means (5th among WHA defensemen, surrounded by other D-men on the list who were never offensive NHL threats), and not sure what his seemingly decent 1983, 1984, and 1985 seasons in Finland translate to. (in 1973 he scored 23 goals to 12 assists and was 19, so I'm not sure he was a defenseman)
Since he was coming off a 68 pts season in the NHL , is it that hard to think those finland season were actually played at a pretty high level by rautakallio , especially given his age? (from 29 to 33 years old). They were all very similar in production , very close to a PPG.

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07-19-2012, 01:12 PM
  #229
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Since he was coming off a 68 pts season in the NHL , is it that hard to think those finland season were actually played at a pretty high level by rautakallio , especially given his age? (from 29 to 33 years old). They were all very similar in production , very close to a PPG.
no, it's not THAT hard, but it's somewhat hard. 29 to 33 was not an age players tended to excel at in those days, and then there's the whole "woulda, coulda, but was in Finland" thing.

I'm just saying, obviously it is something, but determining what is not easy. Especially when it's late 80s Finland we're talking about.

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07-19-2012, 01:56 PM
  #230
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Inferior etc

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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Can you indulge us, please? If someone picks a player who is clearly inferior to other players being selected now and many others still available, how is it “pointless” to say so? And how is it “self-serving”? What was in it for me to do so? Apparently all I did was start a blood feud, so please explain how that is self-serving.

And why is scrutinizing a player individually without team context not valid? If a player is not good enough, he is not good enough. If it turns out that this inferior player gets used as a #6 and PP specialist, then in the team context he is being used properly, but the question still remains, Why would you pick him so early?
Inferior. All the players in this draft were deemed inferior by the selection process of the ATD that preceded it.Players have to be chosen within the era guidelines. So you may have a player from an era who while inferior to players in other eras he is vastly superior to what is left from his era. If there are twenty or more roughly equal players from a different era then it may make sense to draft the inferior player.

Pointless. In the context above, saying so once the complete team is chosen will shed light on the choice. Part of the draft is figuring out how the others are thinking as opposed to some kibitzer interjecting opinions.

Self-serving. See two points above. You are fishing for an explanation for something that you have not figured out. This will definitely help you.

Individually / Team. History of hockey is full of players whose value was team related and coach related. Mismatch the player, team and coach, a disaster ensues. Match the player team and coach and you see performance beyond expectations. Since we are looking at the inferior level to start, the appreciation will be valid after the draft.

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07-19-2012, 02:01 PM
  #231
Mike Farkas
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Sorry for the delay...I need a top center that is a big time scorer and elite defensively and I thought maybe I was guilty of modern bias here and the pick came under some controversy in MLD2011...but since then he's added a Selke win. Meaning that (if I'm not mistaken) he is the ONLY Selke winner (actual or retro) that was not picked in the ATD.

Medicine Hat is pleased to select from the Boston Bruins, C, Patrice Bergeron

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07-19-2012, 02:15 PM
  #232
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Yarmouth adds a second offensive force to their blueline in Defenseman Hy Buller



One of the great offensive dmen of the AHL of his age and it carried over quite nicely to the NHL once he finally got a shot, earning the 2nd team all star nod in 51-52.

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07-19-2012, 02:17 PM
  #233
Mike Farkas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
You don’t need to ask me, you can look them up. These are McCabe’s non-PPGA numbers by season with the Leafs: 59, 64, 53, 46, 61, 67, 42. Per-game, 0.72, 0.78, 0.71, 0.61, 0.81, 0.82, 0.78. While being a big-minute player who went up against the opposition’s stars.

McCabe was not below-average defensively on a league-wide level. This is why eight coaches spanning five franchises over 14 years chose to keep putting him on the ice more than almost anyone else, against top competition. Was he below average for a top pairing, offensively oriented defenseman? Probably. But there is also no one available in this draft who would qualify as above average by that standard. They’ve all been picked.

There are two factors that I think might be affecting your judgment on this subject, as a new GM:

1) You are not remembering that the MLD is its own little “league” where the players are judged based on who else is available and who else is selected in the MLD.
2) You are not considering how important competition level is and how it impacts a defenseman’s performance. Sometimes we have a tendency to glorify lunchpail 3rd pairing defensive defensemen for being so “skilled” defensively and having “shutdown” ability but forget that this shutdown ability was only useful in limited minutes against substandard competition and that it wouldn’t look nearly as great in top-unit, top-opposition situations, and if it would, their coaches, who know much more than you or I, would have used them that way. (there are plenty of great shutdown defensemen whose minutes DO indicate heavy usage by their coaches in first pairing situations – Bill Hajt, Dave Burrows, Mark Tinordi, Ulf Samuelsson – so please don’t interpret this as me saying defensive defensemen are teh suck)
Fair enough. I don't think we're too far apart on what we know McCabe to be. Your point about the MLD being its own little league is well taken. I guess I should see how the draft plays out and consider the relativity regardless...

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Keep in mind that it was a 40-team draft so you’re not getting him much later than I did
Quiet! No one needed to know that...

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07-19-2012, 02:19 PM
  #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
Sorry for the delay...I need a top center that is a big time scorer and elite defensively and I thought maybe I was guilty of modern bias here and the pick came under some controversy in MLD2011...but since then he's added a Selke win. Meaning that (if I'm not mistaken) he is the ONLY Selke winner (actual or retro) that was not picked in the ATD.

Medicine Hat is pleased to select from the Boston Bruins, C, Patrice Bergeron
He was at the top of my list for third line centers

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07-19-2012, 02:19 PM
  #235
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Definitely considered Buller...but already had an offensive-minded guy in Campbell and would rather wait to find a place where a positional, physical, defensive-minded d-man could fit in...good pick by my (fledgling) estimation...

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07-19-2012, 02:23 PM
  #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Farkas
it seems like the Flames missed him when he left, so he probably wasn't as bad of a turnover machine as Tverdovsky (Turnoverdovsky)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seventies
...but who was?
Yes, those were the implications you gave and to me a cheapshot. Its a clear case of suppressed evidence and half-truths.

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07-19-2012, 02:24 PM
  #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
He was at the top of my list for third line centers
I'd say he'd be an excellent center on a two-way 2nd line in this draft, or even a good fit for a two-way first line like I ran in the ATD. Biggest issue is that he's not nearly as much of a generator as Clarke was so it's imperative to find the right set of linemates to work with him if that's the tactic that's being used.

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07-19-2012, 02:26 PM
  #238
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Quote:
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He was at the top of my list for third line centers
So too soon for him? I think I can make a good case for him. He's always among the top scorers on his own team (always played for a very defensive coach more or less), elite defensively, a Selke winner (and 3-time top-5 finisher, IIRC). There were a couple of others I considered, but they were turn of the century players and I didn't feel I could find enough on them to make a strong enough case. Also really wanted a two-way center to lead the charge. I guess I'll find out the hard way whether it was good or not based on the next two rounds...

EDIT: He can't hang with the likes of Rick Meagher and Steve Kasper?

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07-19-2012, 02:30 PM
  #239
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With the 36th pick, the Raleigh Icecaps select


Nikolai Drozdetzky, W

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Nikolai Vladimirovich Drozdetsky (Jun 14, 1957, Kolpino - Nov 24, 1995, St. Petersburg) was a Russian ice hockey right winger, who competed for the USSR. He played for SKA Leningrad (now St. Petersburg) from 1974-1979, then for CSKA Moscow (Red Army team) from 1979 until part way through the 1986/87 season, when he played again for Leningrad, until 1989. He finished his career with Borås HC in Sweden from 1989-1995. He was named most valuable player of the Soviet elite league in 1984. He scored 252 goals in 503 league games and 64 goals in 109 international games with the Soviet national team.

Drozdetsky played on the Soviet national team in 1981, 1982, 1984, and 1985, which won the IIHF World Championships in 1981 and 1982, the Olympic Gold medal in 1984, the 1981 Canada Cup, and the 1981, 1982, and 1985 European championships. He led all goal scorers at the 1984 Olympics with ten goals in seven games, and also led the Soviet team with 12 points.

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07-19-2012, 02:34 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by Troll Ward View Post
With the 36th pick, the Raleigh Icecaps select


Nikolai Drozdetzky, W
Good pick.

Drozdetsky, Dubbie Kerr, and a couple undrafted players all have a very good case for being the most dynamic wingers in this MLD.

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07-19-2012, 02:35 PM
  #241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Inferior. All the players in this draft were deemed inferior by the selection process of the ATD that preceded it.Players have to be chosen within the era guidelines. So you may have a player from an era who while inferior to players in other eras he is vastly superior to what is left from his era. If there are twenty or more roughly equal players from a different era then it may make sense to draft the inferior player.
How does that apply to Tverdovsky? Players from his era are not rare.

Quote:
Pointless. In the context above, saying so once the complete team is chosen will shed light on the choice. Part of the draft is figuring out how the others are thinking as opposed to some kibitzer interjecting opinions.
The only way it's a "good" choice in a team concept is if he's a #6 PP specialist. And if he is being used that way, there's no need to draft him so early. Whether I say that now, or later, is irrelevant.

Quote:
Self-serving. See two points above. You are fishing for an explanation for something that you have not figured out. This will definitely help you.
Fishing for an explanation and wondering what the hell you're talking about are usually two different things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
Fair enough. I don't think we're too far apart on what we know McCabe to be. Your point about the MLD being its own little league is well taken. I guess I should see how the draft plays out and consider the relativity regardless...
That's what I always say!

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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Yes, those were the implications you gave and to me a cheapshot. Its a clear case of suppressed evidence and half-truths.
So? I heard the name Turnoverdovsky before. That's pretty damning evidence that he had a reputation for giveaways. It's pretty weak that my agreement with a statement somebody else made, constitutes a cheap shot worthy of calling me out.

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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
So too soon for him? I think I can make a good case for him. He's always among the top scorers on his own team (always played for a very defensive coach more or less), elite defensively, a Selke winner (and 3-time top-5 finisher, IIRC). There were a couple of others I considered, but they were turn of the century players and I didn't feel I could find enough on them to make a strong enough case. Also really wanted a two-way center to lead the charge. I guess I'll find out the hard way whether it was good or not based on the next two rounds...

EDIT: He can't hang with the likes of Rick Meagher and Steve Kasper?
Defensively, he can definitely hang with those guys. So as a bottom of the lineup kind of guy he is fine.

I would not want him as a top-2 line center myself. Just not enough offensive peak there, when you look at the other names out there. I think that's what the other guys are saying. If you change your mind on where to use him, there are still plenty of centers out there with great offensive records. Was it too early? The early reviews indicate maybe it was, but if you got a guy who was on the top of other guys' lists for 3rd lines, then it's arguable you paid a premium to get an elite 3rd liner... which all of us have done at some point.

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Old
07-19-2012, 02:39 PM
  #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
Definitely considered Buller...but already had an offensive-minded guy in Campbell and would rather wait to find a place where a positional, physical, defensive-minded d-man could fit in...good pick by my (fledgling) estimation...
I actually had Regehr planned for that pick, but completely missed that he had already been taken late in the ATD. Ley would have been ideal, but same situation, went in the ATD but then again I was planning on taking him in the ATD myself. That said I shouldn't have a very hard time building two solid defensive units around Kaberle and Buller. Just have to find the right two.

Quote:
EDIT: He can't hang with the likes of Rick Meagher and Steve Kasper?
I think those two (especially Kasper) are just simply better pure defensive centers. Bergeron is a very good two-way guy and is getting to the point where I wouldn't be at all shocked if he gets taken late in the ATD with another nice season like he just had, or another top 5 Selke finish (going to happen).

FWIW, my Kesler selection back in 2010 was ripped a bit in a similar situation, and from 2011 out I'd say he's going to be an ATD standard unless the draft is really rolled back in number of teams participating.

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07-19-2012, 02:51 PM
  #243
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In the MLD, it's certainly possible that getting the best third line center in the draft is more valuable than getting one of many scorers who all blend together. I haven't looked closely enough yet to give an opinion on whether I think there are third line type players as good as him, though

I don't think he has enough offensive upside to be used as a first liner. I guess you could use him on a two-way second line depending on how your team is constructed.

And I would have taken Bergeron over Rick Meagher even before his Selke-winning 2011-12....

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07-19-2012, 02:55 PM
  #244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
He was at the top of my list for third line centers
Same, he and Billy Reay were the best #3 Cs in this draft imo.

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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Good pick.

Drozdetsky, Dubbie Kerr, and a couple undrafted players all have a very good case for being the most dynamic wingers in this MLD.
I'm interested in comparing Drozdetsky to Khomutov later on if he's one of the most dynamic wings this year again. I'll try to compare their Soviet finishes to see if the numbers bear that out. It's a shame Tikhonov didn't let Drozdetsky get into more international games because the comparison would be much simpler.

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07-19-2012, 02:59 PM
  #245
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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
Same, he and Billy Reay were the best #3 Cs in this draft imo.
Why Reay? I know VI said he was a defensive player in the past but when it came time to draft a 4th line center in ATD2010 it was between him and Cal Gardner. the latter had tons of info supporting his physical/defensive play. Reay had next to nothing. What are you basing your assessment on? I actually assumed he was being drafted to be a top-2 center because his offense is pretty decent.

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07-19-2012, 03:07 PM
  #246
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So? I heard the name Turnoverdovsky before. That's pretty damning evidence that he had a reputation for giveaways. It's pretty weak that my agreement with a statement somebody else made, constitutes a cheap shot worthy of calling me out.
You heard it before therefor it's true? Can we all present hearsay as truth? All I found (and saw) is that he was a young defenseman who was prone to some giveaways on a bad team. This is not uncommon for young offensive defensemen specially on poor teams where the pressure on them to perform is sky high and it's not like Jeff Brown was a great man at keeping the puck within the team.

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07-19-2012, 03:13 PM
  #247
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Why Reay? I know VI said he was a defensive player in the past but when it came time to draft a 4th line center in ATD2010 it was between him and Cal Gardner. the latter had tons of info supporting his physical/defensive play. Reay had next to nothing. What are you basing your assessment on? I actually assumed he was being drafted to be a top-2 center because his offense is pretty decent.
You know everything I'm reading now is more "two-way" than necessarily elite defensively (at this level) like Bergeron.

"A crafty playmaker who played a tougher game than his small stature led opponents to believe, Reay was comfortable in traffic, with a precise passing ability that saw him rack up assists during his time with the Canadiens. " Not a glowing depiction of an elite defensive player so I was off-base.

Honestly my thoughts were you could do a bit better offensively speaking and with the defensive contributions it could allow him to slum it as an elite #3C but he'd certainly be fine as a #2. This is sorta how I ranked Datsyuk in the ATD even though he's clearly better than a #3.

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07-19-2012, 03:14 PM
  #248
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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
You heard it before therefor it's true? Can we all present hearsay as truth? All I found (and saw) is that he was a young defenseman who was prone to some giveaways on a bad team. This is not uncommon for young offensive defensemen specially on poor teams where the pressure on them to perform is sky high and it's not like Jeff Brown was a great man at keeping the puck within the team.
If you google "Oleg Turnoverdovsky," you get a lot of hits. But all of the ones on the first page are from post-lockout, when he was a shell of himself, so take that as you will

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07-19-2012, 03:17 PM
  #249
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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
You know everything I'm reading now is more "two-way" than necessarily elite defensively (at this level) like Bergeron.

"A crafty playmaker who played a tougher game than his small stature led opponents to believe, Reay was comfortable in traffic, with a precise passing ability that saw him rack up assists during his time with the Canadiens. " Not a glowing depiction of an elite defensive player so I was off-base.

Honestly my thoughts were you could do a bit better offensively speaking and with the defensive contributions it could allow him to slum it as an elite #3C but he'd certainly be fine as a #2. This is sorta how I ranked Datsyuk in the ATD even though he's clearly better than a #3.
I would need to know a lot more about Reay's defensie ability to think of him as anything more than merely responsible.

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07-19-2012, 03:18 PM
  #250
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If you google "Oleg Turnoverdovsky," you get a lot of hits. But all of the ones on the first page are from post-lockout, when he was a shell of himself, so take that as you will
I were one of his biggest critics when he came to Winnipeg. He was great offensively but his real weakness was that he shyed away from physical play. Thats when he made bad turnovers. He didnt make anymore turnovers than we've seen from numerous offensively defensemen (Ozolinsh and Brown for example).

Taking fans namecalling as fact is preposterous.

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