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Subban refused qualifying offer

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Old
07-17-2012, 02:45 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Habster33 View Post
I can see Subban signing a Letang type of contract!

14M/4years
Well Bettman is saying they want to curb contracts to five years maximum,so I can see the Habs offering PK Subban a 5yr./20mil contract.Until Subban can lead the team and play good defensively he's not going to get a huge contract,he might be wiser to accept a deal for two years.He will be hitting his peak years then and will command the longer contract with bigger money then.

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07-17-2012, 03:02 PM
  #52
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Is Byfuglien contract being an ideal deal for Subban ? [4.250 + 4.250 + 5.750 + 5.750 + 6.000] / [5.200] for 5 years

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07-17-2012, 03:36 PM
  #53
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I want 2 years 8 million. Now go out and prove you're a #1 defenseman.

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07-17-2012, 03:37 PM
  #54
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3 years at 10.5 millions.

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07-17-2012, 04:32 PM
  #55
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i don't like the idea of PK making more than Price did after his entry level contract.

I can't see him getting more than $4M. Probably somewhere in the $3.25-$3.75 range for a couple of years at least. Then he can go for a larger, longer term as Price did but I don't think he's proved himself at a higher pay level yet.

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07-17-2012, 05:06 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Pine View Post
No, according to the CBA, for a player like PK Subban, who made between $660,000 and $1,000,000 in base salary last season, his qualifying offer cannot exceed $1,000,000.

CBA REFERENCE: Section 10.2 a-ii-b) (Page 31)
It is my belief you have misinterpreted the threshold as an absolute maximum.
The amounts shown are to be taken as the minimum number required for the offer to be considered qualified . The 1,000,000 threshold is the maximum the club is required to offer in that player group to retain rights of refusal for The player. The Habs could have offered a $2,000,000 contract and it would have been considered a qualified offer. Whatever.

This just confirms that the Habs don't want to limit themselves to the 2 year term limit a QO acceptance comes with it and are thinking long term lock up.

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07-17-2012, 05:07 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Habitant le colon View Post
Is Byfuglien contract being an ideal deal for Subban ? [4.250 + 4.250 + 5.750 + 5.750 + 6.000] / [5.200] for 5 years
I'd be okay with that amount of money/term or even I would go up to $5.7 million cap hit/ 7 years.

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07-17-2012, 07:36 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
It is my belief you have misinterpreted the threshold as an absolute maximum.
The amounts shown are to be taken as the minimum number required for the offer to be considered qualified . The 1,000,000 threshold is the maximum the club is required to offer in that player group to retain rights of refusal for The player. The Habs could have offered a $2,000,000 contract and it would have been considered a qualified offer. Whatever.

This just confirms that the Habs don't want to limit themselves to the 2 year term limit a QO acceptance comes with it and are thinking long term lock up.
Um... if that was the case, why wouldn't they just offer that long term contract instead of using organizational resources/funds to go through the process of offering a Q.O. and having Subban sign/refuse? The best reason I can think of is that they need stalling time because the "actual" offer of the Habs is still quite far (in term and/or money) from what the Subban camp is looking for.

Either way, it was Subban who refused the Q.O., not the Habs (obviously), which doesn't "confirm" any of the above really.

And fwiw, I think the other guy did interpret the $1 million thing correctly and that perhaps you haven't. You're right, teams are free to offer up to whatever dollar figure they want, but that becomes a contract offer, not a qualifying offer. There's actually quite a difference when transactions involving rights and contracts are involved. If I had to guess, that anticipated divide between what the team would like to pay to retain the player, and the demands of the player, is the reason for the integrated arbitration process and extension of protection of the player's rights past the July 1st deadline while the issue is resolved legally.

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Old
07-17-2012, 09:41 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Um... if that was the case, why wouldn't they just offer that long term contract instead of using organizational resources/funds to go through the process of offering a Q.O. and having Subban sign/refuse? The best reason I can think of is that they need stalling time because the "actual" offer of the Habs is still quite far (in term and/or money) from what the Subban camp is looking for.

Either way, it was Subban who refused the Q.O., not the Habs (obviously), which doesn't "confirm" any of the above really.

And fwiw, I think the other guy did interpret the $1 million thing correctly and that perhaps you haven't. You're right, teams are free to offer up to whatever dollar figure they want, but that becomes a contract offer, not a qualifying offer. There's actually quite a difference when transactions involving rights and contracts are involved. If I had to guess, that anticipated divide between what the team would like to pay to retain the player, and the demands of the player, is the reason for the integrated arbitration process and extension of protection of the player's rights past the July 1st deadline while the issue is resolved legally.
I don't know about that. I've seen players turn down their QO and then sign within hours. All this means is that Subban is doing the exact same thing that 99.9% of all players in his position do.

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07-17-2012, 10:07 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Um... if that was the case, why wouldn't they just offer that long term contract instead of using organizational resources/funds to go through the process of offering a Q.O. and having Subban sign/refuse? The best reason I can think of is that they need stalling time because the "actual" offer of the Habs is still quite far (in term and/or money) from what the Subban camp is looking for.

Either way, it was Subban who refused the Q.O., not the Habs (obviously), which doesn't "confirm" any of the above really.

And fwiw, I think the other guy did interpret the $1 million thing correctly and that perhaps you haven't. You're right, teams are free to offer up to whatever dollar figure they want, but that becomes a contract offer, not a qualifying offer. There's actually quite a difference when transactions involving rights and contracts are involved. If I had to guess, that anticipated divide between what the team would like to pay to retain the player, and the demands of the player, is the reason for the integrated arbitration process and extension of protection of the player's rights past the July 1st deadline while the issue is resolved legally.
(ii) In order to receive a Right of First Refusal or Draft Choice
Compensation (at the Prior Club's option) with respect to a
Restricted Free Agent, the Prior Club of a Restricted Free Agent
must tender to the Player, no later than 5:00 p.m. New York time
on the later of June 25 or the first Monday after the Entry Draft of
the final year of the Player's SPC, a "Qualifying Offer", which
shall be an offer of an SPC, for one League Year
, which is subject
to salary arbitration if such Player is otherwise eligible for salary
arbitration in accordance with Section 12.1, on at least the
following terms and conditions:


(A) if the Player's prior year's Paragraph 1 NHL Salary is less
than or equal to $660,000 for that League Year, 110% of
the prior year's Paragraph 1 NHL Salary.

(B) if the Player's prior year's Paragraph 1 NHL Salary is
greater than $660,000, but less than $1,000,000 for that
League Year, 105% of his prior year's Paragraph 1 NHL
Salary, but in no event to exceed $1,000,000.


(C) if the Player's prior year's Paragraph 1 NHL Salary is equal
to or greater than $1,000,000 for that League year, 100% of
the prior year's Paragraph 1 NHL Salary.

(D) if a Player is eligible to receive a Two-Way Qualifying
Offer, the Paragraph 1 Minor League Salary component
shall not be less than the higher of the Player's prior year's
Paragraph 1 Minor League Salary, if any, or the minimum
Minor League salary.


Meaning to qualify as a "QO" the terms are to be at least as generous as the minimum conditions set forth here.There are no limits as to how generous the offer can't be.

Section B and C , which is what we are talking about here, says that if a player has a previous salary of > $1,000,000 then a player needs to receive an offer of the previous year's salary and no more than 0 percent increase over that for the team to be protected, in the previous section B it means that a player having a previous salary of between $660,000 and $999,999 they are entitled to a 5 percent raise unless that raise puts them into the situation described in section C in which case the team needs to not give more than $1,000,000 for the offer to be considered qualified and the team to be protected.

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07-17-2012, 11:21 PM
  #61
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Allez sur Google translate et traduisez ''Subban'' du Suédois vers l'anglais... et ..

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07-18-2012, 02:48 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
I don't know about that. I've seen players turn down their QO and then sign within hours. All this means is that Subban is doing the exact same thing that 99.9% of all players in his position do.
Point isn't 100% about what Subban is doing, though. Point is also that teams offer Q.O.s to everyone they intend to keep; regardless of whether or not they're willing to negotiate longer, more lucrative contracts later on as part of the process.

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07-18-2012, 03:00 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
Meaning to qualify as a "QO" the terms are to be at least as generous as the minimum conditions set forth here.There are no limits as to how generous the offer can't be.
Actually, yes there are. In the information you just quoted, a Qualifying offer cannot exceed 1 year in length. That's a limit. It also said that a player making under $1 million (like Subban) are entitled to a 105% of last year's "base" (Paragraph 1) salary, but not over $1 million. That's a second limit. So, any offer to P.K. that either exceeds 1 year and/or $1 million wouldn't fit the definition of a "Q.O.". It would just be a regular SPC (standard player contract) offer.

So, Subban's Q.O. was likely 1 year @ $1 million (or even as low as $918750). Of course most players in Subban's shoes would refuse that, but not even close to all players who receive Q.O.s would/do. Regardless, teams send one to every player coming off an ELC that they intend to keep (but haven't locked up come July 1st) and simply go from there when it comes to negotiations with agents.

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Old
07-18-2012, 06:11 AM
  #64
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The key is eating to as many of the UFA years as possible. A 4or 5 year deal is horrible because then you get 0 or 1 UFA year in the contract. My choice is 2 years, but if he is going to be signed long then at least 6 , hopefully 7 years.

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07-18-2012, 06:52 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
i don't like the idea of PK making more than Price did after his entry level contract.

I can't see him getting more than $4M. Probably somewhere in the $3.25-$3.75 range for a couple of years at least. Then he can go for a larger, longer term as Price did but I don't think he's proved himself at a higher pay level yet.
like it or not, the cap has gone up substantially since Price did his 2nd contract... wether or not the new CBA pulls that back down or otherwise lowers players salaries (roll back), as of today, I think there is no way in hell Subban (and his agent) will settle for anything under 4M$ a season.


I'd rather get him locked up for 4-6 years, even if it means being closer to 5M$, then getting just 2-3 but keeping it closer to 4M$.

something like 28M$/6years (4.67M$ cap hit) would be perfect imo. even if he didn't improve/progress at all, that's a solid cap hit for a 20+min/30-40pt dman who can go against the oppositions best every shift.

if he does continue to improve and hits the norris candidate potential he's shown in glimpses during his first 2 pro seasons, then we have ourselves an amazing long-term contract for once.

if I were Subban, I would be pushing for max $ amount the team will cough up on a 2-3 year deal, and then really cash in after that.

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07-18-2012, 06:58 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by yianik View Post
The key is eating to as many of the UFA years as possible. A 4or 5 year deal is horrible because then you get 0 or 1 UFA year in the contract. My choice is 2 years, but if he is going to be signed long then at least 6 , hopefully 7 years.
don't really agree...

while a 4 year deal doesn't buy us any UFA years, reality is that if we go short of that, and he develops well, he'll still be in a position to get max dollars despite having RFA years left (not unlike the Weber situation in Nashville) and the team will have no choice but to give him that deal or be forced to trade him.

if he doesn't develop well, then the extra $$ we give up by not giving him the extra term doesn't really benefit us either, since we're paying a premium for a player not playing up to snuff.

for the habs, at this point as many years as we can get him signed to (without going into the 8-12 year crazy length) while keeping the cap hit south of 5M$ is a good thing, imo.

the "buying UFA" years factor isn't that important since either way, if he's the player we think he his/will be, he'll be in line for a huge pay day wether his next contract comes with RFA years left or not.

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07-18-2012, 07:45 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Actually, yes there are. In the information you just quoted, a Qualifying offer cannot exceed 1 year in length. That's a limit. It also said that a player making under $1 million (like Subban) are entitled to a 105% of last year's "base" (Paragraph 1) salary, but not over $1 million. That's a second limit. So, any offer to P.K. that either exceeds 1 year and/or $1 million wouldn't fit the definition of a "Q.O.". It would just be a regular SPC (standard player contract) offer.

So, Subban's Q.O. was likely 1 year @ $1 million (or even as low as $918750). Of course most players in Subban's shoes would refuse that, but not even close to all players who receive Q.O.s would/do. Regardless, teams send one to every player coming off an ELC that they intend to keep (but haven't locked up come July 1st) and simply go from there when it comes to negotiations with agents.
I agree with you, but on the bolded part the player (and only the player) has the option of extending the contract to 2 years. So, if Subban was offered $5M on his QO, Subban could take it for 2 years and then become a free agent. That's why I commented that this is a sign the Habs are looking for a longer term , as they could have enticed Subban into a 1 or 2 year deal through a strong QO. Having given it some second thought though I think my line of thinking was off a bit.

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07-18-2012, 09:35 PM
  #68
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Allez sur Google translate et traduisez ''Subban'' du Suédois vers l'anglais... et ..
Lol.

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07-18-2012, 10:45 PM
  #69
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Allez sur Google translate et traduisez ''Subban'' du Suédois vers l'anglais... et ..
You have to feel for Bruins fans....they can't even joke about that anymore...

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07-18-2012, 10:56 PM
  #70
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don't really agree...

while a 4 year deal doesn't buy us any UFA years, reality is that if we go short of that, and he develops well, he'll still be in a position to get max dollars despite having RFA years left (not unlike the Weber situation in Nashville) and the team will have no choice but to give him that deal or be forced to trade him.

if he doesn't develop well, then the extra $$ we give up by not giving him the extra term doesn't really benefit us either, since we're paying a premium for a player not playing up to snuff.

for the habs, at this point as many years as we can get him signed to (without going into the 8-12 year crazy length) while keeping the cap hit south of 5M$ is a good thing, imo.

the "buying UFA" years factor isn't that important since either way, if he's the player we think he his/will be, he'll be in line for a huge pay day wether his next contract comes with RFA years left or not.
Shouldn't the goal be with the signing of Subban to have him on a reasonable cap hit in a couple of years when, hopefully, we're icing a competitive team. It shouldn't hurt us this year or the next if we're paying more for a couple of RFA years as long as we can have a reduced cap hit 4 or 5 years from now.

I understand what you're getting at but I don't see the benefit to it.

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07-19-2012, 03:21 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
like it or not, the cap has gone up substantially since Price did his 2nd contract... wether or not the new CBA pulls that back down or otherwise lowers players salaries (roll back), as of today, I think there is no way in hell Subban (and his agent) will settle for anything under 4M$ a season.


I'd rather get him locked up for 4-6 years, even if it means being closer to 5M$, then getting just 2-3 but keeping it closer to 4M$.

something like 28M$/6years (4.67M$ cap hit) would be perfect imo. even if he didn't improve/progress at all, that's a solid cap hit for a 20+min/30-40pt dman who can go against the oppositions best every shift.

if he does continue to improve and hits the norris candidate potential he's shown in glimpses during his first 2 pro seasons, then we have ourselves an amazing long-term contract for once.

if I were Subban, I would be pushing for max $ amount the team will cough up on a 2-3 year deal, and then really cash in after that.
You've matched my projected fair offer for Subban's services on a 6 yers strech....
$4.7M/Y would be ideal for both....($28.2M) He'd still be in great position to hit the second jack pot after that contract!!!

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07-19-2012, 04:09 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by TakiHaque View Post
Allez sur Google translate et traduisez ''Subban'' du Suédois vers l'anglais... et ..
maudite chienne...C'est pas fort!...;-))

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07-19-2012, 04:18 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
i don't like the idea of PK making more than Price did after his entry level contract.

I can't see him getting more than $4M. Probably somewhere in the $3.25-$3.75 range for a couple of years at least. Then he can go for a larger, longer term as Price did but I don't think he's proved himself at a higher pay level yet.
He's not yet in Shea Weber's class, so I hope he doesn't go overboard in his demands. If he does, how many first rounders could Subban fetch with an offer sheet from the highest bidder?

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07-19-2012, 04:38 PM
  #74
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I can see Subban signing a Letang type of contract!

14M/4years
How about Weber deal, 100+ mil for 14 years?

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07-19-2012, 04:40 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
i don't like the idea of PK making more than Price did after his entry level contract.

I can't see him getting more than $4M. Probably somewhere in the $3.25-$3.75 range for a couple of years at least. Then he can go for a larger, longer term as Price did but I don't think he's proved himself at a higher pay level yet.
"but but but the cap went up!"

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