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Weber Signs OS w/ Philly (14 yrs, $110 mil - $7.85 mil cap hit) Mod Warning Post 364

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07-20-2012, 05:26 AM
  #751
kypredsfan
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What about the possibility of us trading the picks back to Philly for something? Some say well how come that wasn't done before an offersheet. How about this theory: This way Poile looks like the good guy. Poile gets offersheeted by the big bad Holmgren to an absolute ridiculous cap circumventing contract that he knows we can't truly afford. Now Poile is forced to make a tough decision, well him and the owners. Now if he would've just traded Weber, there would've been an uproar too. Now if we lose him for 4 1st's, and trade some of them back for something, Poile appears to have done something positive in a tough situation. This way Holmgren gets what he wants, and maybe Poile gets what he wants. If Poile knows Weber doesn't really want to stick around long term, then this way we get something for Weber and Poile doesn't receive the backlash for trading away a stud dman. I know it sounds crazy but it's 5:30 am and I'm still at work for 2 more hours and just pondering.

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07-20-2012, 05:32 AM
  #752
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I was thinking about the risk the teams are taking with all this bonus money up front. Lets say Weber goes to Philly or stays with Nash, collects the 26 million in the first couple yrs then gets hurt and retires. Would Weber have to pay back the money? Would the teams be stuck with the cap even if hes not playing? Just things I have been thinking about while borred at work on a slow night.

Disclamer: In no way whatsoever am I saying I want to see a player injured and retire. I hate the fact that Pronger may not ever play again, and eventhough Weber kills my Blues, he is very enjoyable to watch.

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07-20-2012, 06:02 AM
  #753
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
Be that as it may, I read it as Poile deciding not to match and then trading Weber. I could be wrong, but my response was tailored towards that being what the poster meant.
As the Poster, I meant a separate deal after Poile chooses not to match. If he doesn't match, Weber's a Flyer and we have 4 picks. Nothing stops the two teams from doing a separate deal by which Flyers send the Preds players/picks in return for player/picks. The key component would be that Poile and the Flyers work out the terms of the second separate deal prior to the Preds deciding they are not going to match.

It goes like this:

Poile: Yo Flyer Mgmt, I plan to match your offer unless you agree to these terms - I won't match if you send me Player A and B, in return for me sending you two future picks.

Flyers: No

Poile: Fine, then I'm matching.

And he does, leaving the Flyers without Weber for at least a year, and then only if they could work out a trade next year.

It's a game of chicken. Flyers have to believe the Preds will match in order to give up more to get Shea. Preds have to be willing to match to get more than the 4 picks.

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07-20-2012, 06:33 AM
  #754
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Originally Posted by Oshie97 View Post
I was thinking about the risk the teams are taking with all this bonus money up front. Lets say Weber goes to Philly or stays with Nash, collects the 26 million in the first couple yrs then gets hurt and retires. Would Weber have to pay back the money?
No, he would keep what he's earned...?
Quote:
Would the teams be stuck with the cap even if hes not playing?
No, the cap hit would go away if he retires.

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07-20-2012, 06:45 AM
  #755
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Weber's agent and Dreger are morons. A guy signs an offer sheet and the things they say about that's the direction Weber wants to go are pretty stupid. They do realize that Nashville can match and he has to play for Nashville right? Even if Weber asked for a trade, Nashville could say, no, not going to do it, we have a 14 year contract and you're staying here whether you like it or not. They're assuming that Nashville 1, won't match or 2, match and then trade him after a year of service. Both are poor assumptions because if he truly wants to go to Philly, he should've just said to Poile, after Suter left I'd feel more comfortable playing in Philly, make it happen. Obviously Holmgren got jumpy or impatient and the OS was offered. Well, it may come back to bite Weber and his agent in the butt if they truly wanted out of Nashville.

Honestly, I hope we match it, especially if he wants out. If he truly a character guy, he'll be a solid leader but if he decides to be a punk, I will have no problem booing him either. Either way, this week is going to be interesting.

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07-20-2012, 06:50 AM
  #756
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Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
Dreger used that language before the agent spoke out, so it's not based on that. Besides, his language was "by signing [the offer sheet], it's clear that Weber wants out of Nashville," indicating that his conclusion is based simply on the offer sheet signing and nothing else.



There's an error in that transcript. The agent says that Weber would "like" to play for the Flyers, not that he'd "really like" to play for them. That's a pretty important difference, since "like" isn't nearly as exclusive as "really like," IMO. If you've narrowed your list of teams down to two or three, I would think that you'd "like" to play for each of them, even if that's not possible. Either way, I'd take the agent's statements with a grain of salt. His job is to represent Weber in contract negotiations, not speak for him to the media. He's just giving his own thoughts and feelings, not necessarily Weber's.
Dude get your head out of the sand. You are in such denial. Yes your team will probably match but your captain, your leader wants to play somewhere else other than where he's playing now. Sure he might not mind going back to your team but he'd RATHER play for someone else. That's huge.

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07-20-2012, 06:52 AM
  #757
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Originally Posted by cashisking View Post
Dude get your head out of the sand. You are in such denial. Yes your team will probably match but your captain, your leader wants to play somewhere else other than where he's playing now. Sure he might not mind going back to your team but he'd RATHER play for someone else. That's huge.
If he wants to play somewhere else so badly, we sign an offer sheet knowing your present team can match the offer? Does that make sense to you?

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07-20-2012, 07:00 AM
  #758
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Originally Posted by cashisking View Post
Dude get your head out of the sand. You are in such denial. Yes your team will probably match but your captain, your leader wants to play somewhere else other than where he's playing now. Sure he might not mind going back to your team but he'd RATHER play for someone else. That's huge.
I don't even think that poster is a Preds fan. They're probably looking at this from an unbiased view.

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07-20-2012, 07:02 AM
  #759
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ex-Thrasher fan here ...As I've seen other ex-Thrasher fans mention previously. We watched many a star player leave in Atlanta and always wanted to assume there was some great conspiracy or secret plan that would eventually end up with the start player re-signing. You shouldn't read so much into it. When players want to sign with a team they sign with them and when they don't things get delayed and deadlines like "signing before trade deadline" get passed.

The Flyers offer sheeted Weber and he signed it. Take it for what it is. If Weber really wanted to play in Nashville he would have signed a contract in Nashville. I'm sure it was offered. He signed with another team. That isn't him saying that Nashville is the only place he wants to play hockey. It's him saying that there is at least one other place he would rather play than Nashville. That isn't to say he won't come back and play great here for many years to come, if Poile matches the offer. Just assume that in cases like this the most simple explanation is usually the correct one.

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07-20-2012, 07:12 AM
  #760
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Originally Posted by kypredsfan View Post
What about the possibility of us trading the picks back to Philly for something?
That is what I would also like to see happening. Make a conditional deal behind the scenes where NASH and PHI agree a trade where some of the compensation picks are traded back to PHI for Meszaros and Couturier (or another young talent), if NASH does not match the offer sheet.

In every case it is hard to see an easy way out. Minimize the losses and get at least something out of it - then move on. If one is able to negotiate a good trade with the compensation picks and at the same time saves a truckload of money, it is possible to rebuild a winning team.

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07-20-2012, 07:14 AM
  #761
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
If he wants to play somewhere else so badly, we sign an offer sheet knowing your present team can match the offer? Does that make sense to you?
Glenn, the offer sheet Weber signed is so massively front loaded that it practically has "**** you Nashville" stamped on it. Weber knows we will have a hard time matching this offer, probably why he signed it in the first place because he knew we couldn't offer this. In negotiations he probably asked Poile for this kind of contract, got denied, then signed this offer sheet. I also believe his agent saying things changed July 4th is actually true. Of course they changed!

Had it been more spread out without all the bonus money, I think we would match it... now... I am not convinced we can or will. If we were going to, I have a feeling we already would've due to the fact poile knew the offer sheet was coming (per many different sources Dreger etc) which tells any rational person that Poile knew what kind of offer weber was looking for but couldn't match it.

The best option for us right now is to not match and swap the picks for young players like Cooter and Vorachek

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07-20-2012, 07:15 AM
  #762
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
If he wants to play somewhere else so badly, we sign an offer sheet knowing your present team can match the offer? Does that make sense to you?
The answer to this is simple. He had no choice but to sign. He wanted to get a front-loaded, lifetime contract before a new CBA was ratified and he really didn't have a long timeframe to do it. If he wait until next year the type of contract he signed is probably not allowed. So waiting a year and becoming an UFA really wasn't an option. What he did was wait and see how the negotiations between Philly and Nashville turned out, unfortunately they couldn't come to an agreement so Weber was forced to sign the offer sheet and hope Nashville doesn't match.

Normally, I would err on the side of caution and say that Weber probably doesn't care if Nashville matches, but when your own agent, a guy who probably knows Weber's intentions better than anyone not named Weber, makes public statements I tend to take them at their word.

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07-20-2012, 07:22 AM
  #763
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Originally Posted by Phenomenon View Post
That is what I would also like to see happening. Make a conditional deal behind the scenes where NASH and PHI agree a trade where some of the compensation picks are traded back to PHI for Meszaros and Couturier (or another young talent), if NASH does not match the offer sheet.

In every case it is hard to see an easy way out. Minimize the losses and get at least something out of it - then move on. If one is able to negotiate a good trade with the compensation picks and at the same time saves a truckload of money, it is possible to rebuild a winning team.
I think Philly's reluctance to include Schenn and/or Couturier in any deal is the reason why we are where we are today.

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07-20-2012, 07:29 AM
  #764
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Originally Posted by cashisking View Post
Yes your team will probably match but your captain, your leader wants to play somewhere else other than where he's playing now. Sure he might not mind going back to your team but he'd RATHER play for someone else. That's huge.
If just playing somewhere else was his chief concern he would have just played in Nashville one more year and left as a UFA. But he also wants a huge money retirement contract, which the next CBA will most likely not allow. So he is trying to have his cake and eat it too but that opens up the option of him having to see out that contract as a Pred.

Personally I match it and let him know that the ridiculous structure of that contract is the reason a couple key guys are going to need to be shipped out to make ends meet in the short term.

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07-20-2012, 07:33 AM
  #765
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If just playing somewhere else was his chief concern he would have just played in Nashville one more year and left as a UFA. But he also wants a huge money retirement contract, which the next CBA will most likely not allow. So he is trying to have his cake and eat it too but that opens up the option of him having to see out that contract as a Pred.

Personally I match it and let him know that the ridiculous structure of that contract is the reason a couple key guys are going to need to be shipped out to make ends meet in the short term.
So you'd cut off you nose to spite your face.

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07-20-2012, 07:37 AM
  #766
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Weber signed a deal knowing the Preds couldn't match. The Preds have been saying they'd match any offersheet for Weber. However, given Poile's statement and Weber's agents comments, I take it we don't match

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07-20-2012, 07:39 AM
  #767
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So you'd cut off you nose to spite your face.
No, you keep one of the best players on the planet. Having a Shea Weber on the team surrounded by a couple of scrubs is better than just having scrubs.

There is no strategy where this team is better, short term or long term, without Shea Weber.

And when his contract becomes a bargain in a few years, and he's still in his prime, then you can afford the talent around him (hopefully, our farm system keeps bearing fruit).

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07-20-2012, 07:40 AM
  #768
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Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
I think Philly's reluctance to include Schenn and/or Couturier in any deal is the reason why we are where we are today.
Philly wants Weber badly, so it is possible to get a good trade for the picks done. They know the asking price now. Two 1st + Meszaros + Voracek/Read/Simmonds would not sound bad.

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07-20-2012, 07:49 AM
  #769
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No, you keep one of the best players on the planet. Having a Shea Weber on the team surrounded by a couple of scrubs is better than just having scrubs.

There is no strategy where this team is better, short term or long term, without Shea Weber.

And when his contract becomes a bargain in a few years, and he's still in his prime, then you can afford the talent around him (hopefully, our farm system keeps bearing fruit).
8 draft picks in 4 years would set the Preds up for some long-term success if they use those assets wisely. Weber was a 2nd round pick, it's not like the Preds have a history of crap drafting.

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07-20-2012, 08:09 AM
  #770
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Real slap in the face to Preds and their fans that Weber would sign an offer sheet with a poison pill in it....he could have signed a sheet with the money and term he wanted without having a poison pill in it that would hurt the Preds....I have no problem with him getting paid but the terms is what makes him look bad IMHO

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07-20-2012, 08:13 AM
  #771
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Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
8 draft picks in 4 years would set the Preds up for some long-term success if they use those assets wisely. Weber was a 2nd round pick, it's not like the Preds have a history of crap drafting.
Would you trade Shea Weber for 4 picks probably in the 22-28 range? No, you wouldn't.

We have a team that, with the NHL's best D-man and a top 3 goaltender, could win a cup with a break or two.

Even if those picks pan out, you're likely talking 2018 before they're doing anything in the NHL.

But suppose you're right, and we take those picks, and one of them happens to be an All-World Player. What happens when he becomes an RFA? If you're not going to pay Weber now, they never will.

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07-20-2012, 08:52 AM
  #772
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Would you trade Shea Weber for 4 picks probably in the 22-28 range? No, you wouldn't.

We have a team that, with the NHL's best D-man and a top 3 goaltender, could win a cup with a break or two.

Even if those picks pan out, you're likely talking 2018 before they're doing anything in the NHL.

But suppose you're right, and we take those picks, and one of them happens to be an All-World Player. What happens when he becomes an RFA? If you're not going to pay Weber now, they never will.
This is where we differ. I don't think the Preds can win a Cup with the team they have going into next year. I doubt their ability to acquire the pieces to surround Weber and Rinne with the requisite pieces while Weber is making 14M per year and Rinne 7M per.

And with a new CBA, I assume, front loading contracts will be abolished so the Preds wouldn't have to worry about 14 year, front loaded contracts with 68M in signing bonuses.

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07-20-2012, 09:00 AM
  #773
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I think Philly's reluctance to include Schenn and/or Couturier in any deal is the reason why we are where we are today.
You are right about that. Giroux, the Schenn's and Couturier are out of the question.

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07-20-2012, 09:03 AM
  #774
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This is where we differ. I don't think the Preds can win a Cup with the team they have going into next year. I doubt their ability to acquire the pieces to surround Weber and Rinne with the requisite pieces while Weber is making 14M per year and Rinne 7M per.

And with a new CBA, I assume, front loading contracts will be abolished so the Preds wouldn't have to worry about 14 year, front loaded contracts with 68M in signing bonuses.
Even if you don't think they can win a cup with Rinne/Weber, they're surely farther off without Weber. What's the point of having Rinne locked up to a 7 year deal if we're on another 5 year rebuilding plan?

If you want to blow the whole thing up, I could see that. Take the 4 picks from Weber. Trade Rinne for a package of youngsters. Hoard assets and bring 'em all up together in a couple of years.

The Preds weren't supposed to have to worry about those types of contracts in this CBA deal either. Someone found a loophole. They always do, and they always will.

This is the Preds big boy moment. If they won't pay their homegrown, face of the franchise, captain, core player - they won't pay anyone when one of the big boys want to poach them. This is the moment where the Preds decide whether they're a farm team or a real NHL club.

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07-20-2012, 09:06 AM
  #775
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Originally Posted by RaiderDoug View Post
Even if you don't think they can win a cup with Rinne/Weber, they're surely farther off than without Weber. What's the point of having Rinne locked up to a 7 year deal if we're on another 5 year rebuilding plan?

If you want to blow the whole thing up, I could see that. Take the 4 picks from Weber. Trade Rinne for a package of youngsters. Hoard assets and bring 'em all up together in a couple of years.

The Preds weren't supposed to have to worry about those types of contracts in this CBA deal either. Someone found a loophole. They always do, and they always will.

This is the Preds big boy moment. If they won't pay their homegrown, face of the franchise, captain, core player - they won't pay anyone when one of the big boys want to poach them. This is the moment where the Preds decide whether they're a farm team or a real NHL club.
And again, if DP talks to Weber and finds out he doesn't want to be here anymore, then what? If there is a work stoppage you are paying 26M for a player who isn't even playing.

I don't know. I am glad I am not the GM of this team at this particular moment. However, this is pretty much all Poile's fault for letting it get to this ultimatum. If Weber goes, Poile has to go.

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