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NHL Free Agency Thread 7 (Legit Sources ONLY) Shane Doan visiting Montreal (Post 400)

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07-20-2012, 10:16 AM
  #151
danyhabsfan
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Habs PP


Markov could set up Subban on defense for the one timer or Semin with one of those pass only Markov can do.

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07-20-2012, 10:22 AM
  #152
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Just to make it clear, Nashville is facing a $27 million outlay to Shea Weber in the next 12 calendar months. $13m signing bonus the moment the contract is signed, then $1m salary for 12/13, then another $13m bonus next July 1st (I presume that would be the date). That is a huge amount of cash for a franchise like Nashville to dish out to one player, and Philadelphia's ownership knows it. The sheet is specifically structured to be an absolute poison pill to the Predators franchise & ownership.

This contract is every bit as egregious as Kovalchuk's "sign him til he's 44" nonsensical deal was. It's not just the cap circumvention of those damned "tack on $1m years at the end" - it's the outright predation (pardon the pun) by a large-market team against a small-market one. This is not the way successful leagues are run. This is the way that leads to a permanent two-tiered league where the smaller markets effectively become farm teams for the larger ones.

Shame on this ****ing league for not stopping these ******* contracts when they started and letting them get to this point.
Then let the small market money losing teams die. Do you actually care? Do you think NHL hockey is better with thirty teams?

This is not NBA, MLB or NFL. The NHL has over extended, and now we see a second possible lockout in 7 years because of it.

It was a bad idea to expand to small markets. This was clearly evident.

I will keep posting this until everyone gets it: This is a battle between small market teams and hockey market teams that belong in the league. It is not a battle between players and owners.

If the NHL was a strong 16 hockey market team league as it should be, we would not even be discussing this, as there would be no cap. Why does everyone here take the cap as given? It's a ****ing curse, especially for the Habs.

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07-20-2012, 10:25 AM
  #153
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It's a nice "hope", but I don't know what there is to base it on. Therrien's track record is at least something, and yes, while people change, when you hand an offer across the table to Semin and he has other similar offers from Detroit or wherever, why is he going to take ours and just "hope" as we do that Therrien has evolved?
It's based on the fact that if coaches want to keep working, they need to evolve. Otherwise, they'll get fired again, quickly. So, I think we're both hoping Therrien learned from his past experiences.
As for Semin, I can't tell you why he'd chose Mtl. Maybe Markov calls him up. Maybe he enjoys the city. Maybe management convinces him. Maybe he wants to prove he can be the go-to guy in a hot hockey market. Maybe he doesn't want to live in a dump like Detroit (no offense to Detroit peeps). Can't tell you buddy..

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Well, it seemed like he was in the doghouse last season in Washington a lot, and still got 21 goals and 54 points. I mean, if that is what you call "work well", then sure, I can see that being at least a reasonable floor to set one's expectations on. He's just that talented. And that's why I'd personally still offer the $5M/1yr or maybe even $6M/1yr or $10M/2yrs... because even that minimum return is still something we could use. Then with the "wildcard" upside that maybe things do work out better and he does even better than that. But I don't see how anybody could be "confident" that the full upside would be hit. It's just a "hope".
By being confident Semin would do well, I meant hit the 30G mark, and not be the overly exaggerated poison most say he is.


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I say go for it anyway, go for the win. Even coddle Semin a little bit if you have to. Don't just fax the offer to his agent, fly them in, sit them down, take them out on the town. Get Therrien to smile and bat his eyelashes a bit, if that's what it takes.

It's worth a try at this point. I don't have to feel confident - or even optimistic - about it working out to still say why not go for it. I don't think there's all that much downside, after all.
Agreed, and I don't think there's any downside to it. Not on a short term deal.

He fills an obvious hole. I mean, I still can't believe we don't have one player that can deke an opponent one on one. All we have are players that will try to outskate the opposition. I need at least one player that can dangle around opposition.
Eller might be that guy, but he wasn't there yet last season, and he might never be. Semin is though.

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07-20-2012, 10:25 AM
  #154
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Habs PP


Markov could set up Subban on defense for the one timer or Semin with one of those pass only Markov can do.
GENIUS!! You tought of that all by yourself?

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07-20-2012, 10:29 AM
  #155
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Originally Posted by CN_paladin View Post
Once an offer sheet is matched, you can't trade that player for at least 1 year which is why Nashville got screwed in the ass by Philly. Because Weber's agent publicly stated that he had no intention to stay in Nashville, it's either 4 picks or 1 year at 28 Million for Nashville.
This is a wake up call by Holmgren: 'You want to have a team in this league? Then pay for it.' I agree. Many of you will not of course.

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07-20-2012, 10:34 AM
  #156
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Who cares if Weber doesnt want to stay in Nashville?

He signed the offer sheet. If they match, hes stuck there for 14 years unless he decides to walk away from the team and go AWOL.

Weber would've been smarter to sign only a 1 year deal with Nashville and go to UFA.

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07-20-2012, 10:37 AM
  #157
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Originally Posted by LaTenderness View Post
Jesus Christ this is beyond ridiculous..... Your hatred towards the guy has went from blind anger to simply obsessive and unhealthy. I just don't get it, you'd think he ****ed your highschool sweetheart or something.
He ran over my dog with his car, then he ****ed my wife the same day. But if he could score 40 this year for the Habs, I'd call it even.

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07-20-2012, 10:39 AM
  #158
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Who cares if Weber doesnt want to stay in Nashville?

He signed the offer sheet. If they match, hes stuck there for 14 years unless he decides to walk away from the team and go AWOL.

Weber would've been smarter to sign only a 1 year deal with Nashville and go to UFA.
Might be scared the new CBA will eliminate these big contracts.

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07-20-2012, 10:46 AM
  #159
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I'm of the opinion that the Habs need a big young defenceman and Florida has Keaton Ellerby a 23yr.old LD 6'5 and 217 lbs and is their 7th Dman.Dale Tallon and Bergevin probably have a good working history from their days in Chicago together.Maybe the Habs could trade Rafael Diaz for Ellerby giving the Habs a big Dman to carry the load with Emelin.Another Dman could be Cody Franson from Toronto,he's a RD 24yr.old 6'5 and 213 lbs. Truly the Habs need a couple of big Dmen like these,Bergevin has dealt with Brian Burke over Rick Dudley and that went smooth possibly there's a deal they can make for Franson that can help Toronto.I think if the Habs are going to play a hard Physical brand of hockey it would be wise to gain some sizeable defencemen.Last on my list is Matt Martin from the NYI'ers he's 23 yr.old LW 6'3 and 210 lbs.hitting machine.The Habs need him for their 4th line and NYI could use some defencemen with experience like Kaberle or Weber and a 4th pick maybe for him,he's a RFA also.With a few players like these the Habs would be hard to play against and harder to injure.Just saying IMO.
Reasonable. Good post. I don't know much about Ellerby and Martin though, I can't see enough games from here. I hope one of the many guys on this board who know players very well will respond, though be warned, they might not like these guys.

As for any trade with Boronto: No.

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07-20-2012, 11:06 AM
  #160
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He ran over my dog with his car, then he ****ed my wife the same day. But if he could score 40 this year for the Habs, I'd call it even.
If the bolded part was true for me, he'd better do more than score 40! I'd be waiting for my season tickets and my lifelong supply of Heinekken!

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07-20-2012, 11:31 AM
  #161
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Who cares if Weber doesnt want to stay in Nashville?

He signed the offer sheet. If they match, hes stuck there for 14 years unless he decides to walk away from the team and go AWOL.

Weber would've been smarter to sign only a 1 year deal with Nashville and go to UFA.
Except it doesn't work like that.

The bridges are burned between Weber and Nashville.

-NSH refused 3 years 7M deal then took to arbitration
-Failed to retain star players and build a winner
-Failed to trade him before he could sign with Philly

Then you match an offer sheet he signed with Philly forcing him to stay in NSH...

You have a completely unmotivated star player making enormous amounts of monies who has no reason to play as hard as he always has since the team sucks and his future is guaranteed and he wants out but you're forcing him to play there.

I don't think "who cares" applies here.


Last edited by E = CH²: 07-20-2012 at 11:36 AM.
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07-20-2012, 11:49 AM
  #162
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Originally Posted by S Bah View Post
I'm of the opinion that the Habs need a big young defenceman and Florida has Keaton Ellerby a 23yr.old LD 6'5 and 217 lbs and is their 7th Dman.Dale Tallon and Bergevin probably have a good working history from their days in Chicago together. Maybe the Habs could trade Rafael Diaz for Ellerby giving the Habs a big Dman to carry the load with Emelin...
I think that Ellerby may be a good player to target as he is behind a lot of defencemen in Florida. Nonetheless, it will take more than Diaz to shake him free and I'm not very sure that the Panthers would be interested in Diaz in the first place.

Not only that, Ellerby does not seem to be much of a scrapper despite his 6'5" frame.

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07-20-2012, 12:13 PM
  #163
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Just to make it clear, Nashville is facing a $27 million outlay to Shea Weber in the next 12 calendar months. $13m signing bonus the moment the contract is signed, then $1m salary for 12/13, then another $13m bonus next July 1st (I presume that would be the date). That is a huge amount of cash for a franchise like Nashville to dish out to one player, and Philadelphia's ownership knows it. The sheet is specifically structured to be an absolute poison pill to the Predators franchise & ownership.

This contract is every bit as egregious as Kovalchuk's "sign him til he's 44" nonsensical deal was. It's not just the cap circumvention of those damned "tack on $1m years at the end" - it's the outright predation (pardon the pun) by a large-market team against a small-market one. This is not the way successful leagues are run. This is the way that leads to a permanent two-tiered league where the smaller markets effectively become farm teams for the larger ones.

Shame on this ****ing league for not stopping these ******* contracts when they started and letting them get to this point.
Let's just make it clear, there is no signing bonus for Weber. Bonuses are for ELCs and players over 35. The same fallacy was proclaimed on Parise and Suter contracts. They're ONLY front loaded and nothing else. The only thing NSH will have to pay is the 14 mil of salary.

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07-20-2012, 12:19 PM
  #164
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Let's just make it clear, there is no signing bonus for Weber. Bonuses are for ELCs and players over 35. The same fallacy was proclaimed on Parise and Suter contracts. They're ONLY front loaded and nothing else. The only thing NSH will have to pay is the 14 mil of salary.
The 13M signing bonus is guaranteed cash. It still counts on the cap and all, but it's still a huge chunk of money. Say there's a lockout this year, Weber still gets his 13M. Say he's suspended for a year somehow, he;s getting his 13M but not his 1M salary. We're not talking about performance bonus.

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07-20-2012, 12:20 PM
  #165
danyhabsfan
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GENIUS!! You tought of that all by yourself?
Yeah thx

I had made a PP formation here but when I posted it. It didnt appear so I only wrote that.

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07-20-2012, 12:20 PM
  #166
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Except it doesn't work like that.

The bridges are burned between Weber and Nashville.

-NSH refused 3 years 7M deal then took to arbitration
-Failed to retain star players and build a winner
-Failed to trade him before he could sign with Philly

Then you match an offer sheet he signed with Philly forcing him to stay in NSH...

You have a completely unmotivated star player making enormous amounts of monies who has no reason to play as hard as he always has since the team sucks and his future is guaranteed and he wants out but you're forcing him to play there.

I don't think "who cares" applies here.
Well, somehow, if he'd REALLY want out of there...again...why didn't he wait just 1 year? There were reports prior to that already that Poile would match any offer. Why would Weber take that chance? 'Cause Philly was too great an opportunity to pass on? Come on...there would have been tons of others like that next year. So if Poile match it, Weber WILL have to play hard for his team. At worst, he still needs to show that he will be amongst the best even with that kind of contract so if a trade is in order at one point, he needs to play hard to keep that value up. Even if we know that his value will always be up.

Yet, I totally understand Philly move. But it's just mind boggling to understand Weber's move if his goal #1 was to leave Nashville. Makes no sense to me. So either he won't mind Nashville. Either, he took a risk and understand the implications of it. Either, he'll be awaiting for a trade if Nashville match it. So the who cares for me works as far as Nashville is concerned. At worst, they'll have a pretty good return for him. At best, he plays good for them. If they don't match it, well it gives also a pretty good return....but surely not if they would be trading him. But Nashville has been doing a relatively okay job on the draft front.

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07-20-2012, 12:22 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Who cares if Weber doesnt want to stay in Nashville?

He signed the offer sheet. If they match, hes stuck there for 14 years unless he decides to walk away from the team and go AWOL.

Weber would've been smarter to sign only a 1 year deal with Nashville and go to UFA.
Yea it's almost like he wants to see Nashville fail because they didn't hang onto Suter.

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07-20-2012, 12:28 PM
  #168
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Then let the small market money losing teams die. Do you actually care? Do you think NHL hockey is better with thirty teams?

This is not NBA, MLB or NFL. The NHL has over extended, and now we see a second possible lockout in 7 years because of it.

It was a bad idea to expand to small markets. This was clearly evident.

I will keep posting this until everyone gets it: This is a battle between small market teams and hockey market teams that belong in the league. It is not a battle between players and owners.

If the NHL was a strong 16 hockey market team league as it should be, we would not even be discussing this, as there would be no cap. Why does everyone here take the cap as given? It's a ****ing curse, especially for the Habs.
This mentality sickens me.
Nashville isn't even a "Failed market". It's not in the tier of the Atlantas, Phoenixes, etc. of the league. They're a mid-bottom revenue team in a fresh new market. You need to let these places grow. It's obvious Nashville was going somewhere. Look at LA. They went from being a bottom dweller to becoming a good team with good revenue. Look at Pittsburgh. Say what you want about "rigging a draft", but they're a key example of a team which went from no revenue to being a powerful franchise (money-wise). These contracts like the one given to Shea Weber kills small markets, and puts all the power in big markets. It's the same mentality as the MLB. I remember when the Expos, the best drafting team in the league was literally a feeder to actual teams. Your mentality leads to teams like the Yankees throwing obscene amounts of money at whoever they want in a pick and choose that cripples small franchises. I can't believe this mentality comes from people in Montreal, who had to see the Expos get ripped from us in this very way.

And remember, Montreal is a big hockey market, but we're never going to be giving the 14 million dollar contracts. If we start weeding out the small markets, eventually it's going to be us that's going to get shafted on mega contracts from billionaire franchises.

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07-20-2012, 12:35 PM
  #169
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The 13M signing bonus is guaranteed cash. It still counts on the cap and all, but it's still a huge chunk of money. Say there's a lockout this year, Weber still gets his 13M. Say he's suspended for a year somehow, he;s getting his 13M but not his 1M salary. We're not talking about performance bonus.
problem is that people see it as 14 for signing +14 for the next season (12-13) which is false. he'll get no more than 14 in 12-13, not 28.

And it's not a signing bonus per se, as it is exclusively part of the cap hit for next season, its a provision that was added to the 1 year extention of the CBA in case there would be a work stoppage for 12-13. its a form of garanteed salary, but players still cant get more than the max salary

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07-20-2012, 12:53 PM
  #170
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problem is that people see it as 14 for signing +14 for the next season (12-13) which is false. he'll get no more than 14 in 12-13, not 28.

And it's not a signing bonus per se, as it is exclusively part of the cap hit for next season, its a provision that was added to the 1 year extention of the CBA in case there would be a work stoppage for 12-13. its a form of garanteed salary, but players still cant get more than the max salary
He'll get 14M this year + the bonuses for the next year on july first

so something like 27M in less than a year

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07-20-2012, 12:55 PM
  #171
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This mentality sickens me.
Nashville isn't even a "Failed market". It's not in the tier of the Atlantas, Phoenixes, etc. of the league. They're a mid-bottom revenue team in a fresh new market. You need to let these places grow. It's obvious Nashville was going somewhere. Look at LA. They went from being a bottom dweller to becoming a good team with good revenue. Look at Pittsburgh. Say what you want about "rigging a draft", but they're a key example of a team which went from no revenue to being a powerful franchise (money-wise). These contracts like the one given to Shea Weber kills small markets, and puts all the power in big markets. It's the same mentality as the MLB. I remember when the Expos, the best drafting team in the league was literally a feeder to actual teams. Your mentality leads to teams like the Yankees throwing obscene amounts of money at whoever they want in a pick and choose that cripples small franchises. I can't believe this mentality comes from people in Montreal, who had to see the Expos get ripped from us in this very way.

And remember, Montreal is a big hockey market, but we're never going to be giving the 14 million dollar contracts. If we start weeding out the small markets, eventually it's going to be us that's going to get shafted on mega contracts from billionaire franchises.
Totally agree...

But what else do you expect? As much as pro sports in NA have evolved uncompetitive practices that would be seen as communistic were they applied in any other industry, this is still a capitalist society... Why should anyone who believes in free markets shed a tear for a small market not being able to compete with the big boys?

Montreal, in baseball, was the third world producer, doing all the work to extract resources that were the "legitimately" procured by the big boys... Nashville is in the same situation, c'est la capitalist vie!

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07-20-2012, 12:59 PM
  #172
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problem is that people see it as 14 for signing +14 for the next season (12-13) which is false. he'll get no more than 14 in 12-13, not 28.

And it's not a signing bonus per se, as it is exclusively part of the cap hit for next season, its a provision that was added to the 1 year extention of the CBA in case there would be a work stoppage for 12-13. its a form of garanteed salary, but players still cant get more than the max salary
The 27M number is talked about because the Preds cannot trade Weber for a year, should they match the offer sheet. So Weber would get 14M in 2012-13, then an extra 13M guaranteed on July 1st 2013.

I don't think it's a CBA provision as you say since players in the past have been getting 10M in a year with a % of the money being SB. I can't think of Christian Ehrhoff last year when he signed with Buffalo. His total NHL salary last year was 10M but 8M were as signing bonus.

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07-20-2012, 01:06 PM
  #173
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problem is that people see it as 14 for signing +14 for the next season (12-13) which is false. he'll get no more than 14 in 12-13, not 28.

And it's not a signing bonus per se, as it is exclusively part of the cap hit for next season, its a provision that was added to the 1 year extention of the CBA in case there would be a work stoppage for 12-13. its a form of garanteed salary, but players still cant get more than the max salary
Next years bonus is paid in the summer...so in a calender year, yes, he is getting $27 million.

May be I should have looked to see how many others already answered the question haha.

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07-20-2012, 01:26 PM
  #174
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Well, somehow, if he'd REALLY want out of there...again...why didn't he wait just 1 year?
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'Cause Philly was too great an opportunity to pass on? Come on...there would have been tons of others like that next year
Because that deal won't be there anymore in 1 year.

The only reason that deal was even drafted like this is because they are trying to make it impossible for Nashville to match. That deal might not be there later if the situation is different. It might be less frontloaded, it might be on a shorter term, who knows.

More importantly, with the CBA up for renewal and the league wanting to eliminate these frontloaded long term deals... this 14 years 110M deal is very likely to be the last of its kind.

Quote:
There were reports prior to that already that Poile would match any offer. Why would Weber take that chance?
Keep in mind that the deal has been structured and made to be a poisonous pill for Nashville. It's clear they're hoping that Nashville cannot match it.

Who knows if they actually can. Even if they can, it's one year of controversy and they find themselves under even more pressure in a year when it's time to trade Weber.

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So if Poile match it, Weber WILL have to play hard for his team. At worst, he still needs to show that he will be amongst the best even with that kind of contract so if a trade is in order at one point, he needs to play hard to keep that value up. Even if we know that his value will always be up.
Yes, you know full well he could have the crappiest year ever and 29 teams would still line up to make that trade next year. They would all tell themselves that Weber was just disgruntled after having asked out and that he would be better with his new team.

Just look at the twitter of Weber's agent. Weber wants to be in Philly, not Nashville. He will definitely be upset if Nashville matches. Nashville is well within their rights to match but it will create a controversy for a year. It will mean they need to pay 27M of the 110M contract for one year of an unmotivated Weber after having just lost Suter and being in no position to contend.

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Yet, I totally understand Philly move. But it's just mind boggling to understand Weber's move if his goal #1 was to leave Nashville. Makes no sense to me.
As I said above, it's obvious that Weber just wants the last big deal while he can get it AND the opportunity to actually play for a real hockey franchise.

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So either he won't mind Nashville. Either, he took a risk and understand the implications of it. Either, he'll be awaiting for a trade if Nashville match it.
I think it's a calculated risk that Nashville won't want the 1 year controversy surrounding Weber on top of being forced to pay the first bonuses. Not to mention the risk of a lockout year where you still need to pay Weber his bonuses.


Quote:
So the who cares for me works as far as Nashville is concerned. At worst, they'll have a pretty good return for him. At best, he plays good for them. If they don't match it, well it gives also a pretty good return....but surely not if they would be trading him. But Nashville has been doing a relatively okay job on the draft front.
Players get tired of playing in ****holes like Colombus and Nashville and they ask out. If you don't comply with the demands in a timely manner, it eventually gets leaked by someone somewhere, it creates controversy (see: the Nash situation in Colombus). I don't think Nashville wants to pay 27M in a potential lockout year for the privilege of 1 year of controversy and a player who is disgruntled since he clearly wants out (Weber was very vocal that he wanted the preds to be competitive or else.. ).

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07-20-2012, 02:13 PM
  #175
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I fail to see how Nashville has gone from a 104 point team to bottom feeder of the NHL by simply losing Suter.

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