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Old
07-20-2012, 03:29 PM
  #1
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RFA Wars

When you consider the Shea Weber offer sheet, why is it that NHL GMs are so reserved about making attempts at signing RFAs away from other teams?

I understand the whole gentleman's agreement mentality. But no body ever won anything by not getting a little dirty and greasy when it mattered the most.

A quick search of RFAs around the league yields an impressive crop of up and coming stars:

Evander Kane
Jakub Voracek
Colin Wilson
Dmitry Kulikov
Michael Del Zotto
Ryan O'Reilly
P.K. Subban
Tyler Ennis
John Carlson
Jamie Benn

Should fans not be more vocal about a desire to see more offer sheets tendered?

Personally, I would have no problem handing any of those players a large multi-year, multi-million dollar deal; specifically, Kane and Benn.

Here's the salary compensation chart for RFA offer sheets:

$1,110,249 or below - No Compensation
Over $1,110,249 to $1,682,194 - 3rd round pick
Over $1,682,194 to $3,364,391 - 2nd round pick
Over $3,364,391 to $5,046,585 - 1st round pick, 3rd
Over $5,046,585 to $6,728,781 - 1st round pick, 2nd, 3rd
Over $6,728,781 To $8,410,976 - Two 1st Round Picks, 2nd, 3rd
Over $8,410,976 - Four 1st Round Picks

So why is it that Murray never gets pressed in public to do these kinds of things? What's stopping teams like the Ottawa Senators who have a hard time attracting the "big fish" free agents from snapping up players like this?

I would be seriously hard pressed to believe that surrendering a first, second and third round pick for a guy like Kane or Benn would be the ruin of this franchise. Especially when you consider how great a job our scouting department has done stockpiling talent since 2008.

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07-20-2012, 03:42 PM
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SevenOfSpades
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If I was an NHL GM, I'd be wary of doing business with the guy that tries to poach players like that.

Minus the elbow to karlsson's face, I love Evander's game. I know he's had some "injury issues", and puts his body at risk, but I wouldn't mind giving that kid a front loaded contract for 8 years.

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07-20-2012, 03:51 PM
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It's happening a lot in basketball. Not sure if it's a good thing or not though.

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07-20-2012, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by SevenOfSpades View Post
If I was an NHL GM, I'd be wary of doing business with the guy that tries to poach players like that.

Minus the elbow to karlsson's face, I love Evander's game. I know he's had some "injury issues", and puts his body at risk, but I wouldn't mind giving that kid a front loaded contract for 8 years.
That's my point: why?

A question more pertinent when you admit in the next point that you would give one of the players mentioned an 8 year front loaded contract.

I just want to understand why this mentality is so prevalent. If the point is to build a better team through draft, free agency and trade, why is it that one avenue is so unbelievably frowned upon that when you hear it happens people are shocked like people were killed?

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07-20-2012, 03:57 PM
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99% of the time it's going to get matched and all you're doing is driving up prices and pissing people off when you know it's going to get matched.

Philly was "smart" with the way they structured it and Nashville simply might not be able to afford to match because of the bonuses. Most times it won't happen that way.

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Old
07-20-2012, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by PCooper View Post
99% of the time it's going to get matched and all you're doing is driving up prices and pissing people off when you know it's going to get matched.

Philly was "smart" with the way they structured it and Nashville simply might not be able to afford to match because of the bonuses. Most times it won't happen that way.
You see, I disagree with both points.

Looking at the offer sheets made since the lockout:

Ryan Kesler by Philadelphia (matched by Vancouver)
Thomas Vanek by Edmonton (matched by Buffalo)
Dustin Penner by Edmonton (signed by Edmonton)
David Backes by Vancouver (matched by St. Louis)
Steve Bernier by St. Louis (matched by Vancouver)
Niklas Hjalmarsson by San Jose (matched by Chicago)
Shea Weber by Philadelphia (undetermined)

One thing you see right away is that there haven't been that many established stars who have been tendered offer sheets. Kesler was still a third liner. Vanek was coming off one very good season. Penner was coming off one very good season. Backes had a 13-goal career best at that point. Bernier was a marginal second liner. Hjalmarsson was just breaking in to the top 4. Weber is the first truly bonafide star to be offersheeted.

If Ottawa values Jamie Benn at 5 years, $6 million per season, does that mean they're driving up prices? Or does that mean they're trying to find a reasonable number for a guy who's been a 20+ goal scorer since coming in to the league?

If anything, Philadelphia's offer sheet has been the most destructive. The way they have front-loaded Weber's offer sheet and put massive amounts of bonus money in there is a detriment to teams as this will become a common expectation in future negotiations for upper tier free agents.

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Old
07-20-2012, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PKC View Post
That's my point: why?

A question more pertinent when you admit in the next point that you would give one of the players mentioned an 8 year front loaded contract.
I was trying to say something like, "I'd never mess around with a girl who has a boyfriend, but I'd rail the **** out of Dave's girlfriend if she was single or if Dave was cool about it."

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07-20-2012, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by SevenOfSpades View Post
I was trying to say something like, "I'd never mess around with a girl who has a boyfriend, but I'd rail the **** out of Dave's girlfriend if she was single or if Dave was cool about it."
Not sure how that analogy relates to this discussion.

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07-20-2012, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by PKC View Post
Not sure how that analogy relates to this discussion.
It means he knows a guy named Dave and would love to rail his girlfriend

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07-20-2012, 05:56 PM
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SevenOfSpades
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Originally Posted by PKC View Post
Not sure how that analogy relates to this discussion.
If I wasn't so against poaching on contract superstars by tendering ridiculous offer sheets that would cripple the team financially to match it, I'd totally make a move for Evander Kane.

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It means he knows a guy named Dave and would love to rail his girlfriend
This guy gets it.

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07-20-2012, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Swedish Mafia View Post
It means he knows a guy named Dave and would love to rail his girlfriend
I don't like sharing





But yeah, you only send an offer sheet if you think there's a chance the other team doesn't match.

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Old
07-20-2012, 08:22 PM
  #12
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Originally Posted by PKC View Post
I understand the whole gentleman's agreement mentality. But no body ever won anything by not getting a little dirty and greasy when it mattered the most.
Because then other GMs will start playing dirty with you. Do you really want to piss off other GMs when we always have a few RFAs coming up ourselves every year?

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07-20-2012, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PKC View Post
You see, I disagree with both points.

Looking at the offer sheets made since the lockout:

Ryan Kesler by Philadelphia (matched by Vancouver)
Thomas Vanek by Edmonton (matched by Buffalo)
Dustin Penner by Edmonton (signed by Edmonton)
David Backes by Vancouver (matched by St. Louis)
Steve Bernier by St. Louis (matched by Vancouver)
Niklas Hjalmarsson by San Jose (matched by Chicago)
Shea Weber by Philadelphia (undetermined)

One thing you see right away is that there haven't been that many established stars who have been tendered offer sheets. Kesler was still a third liner. Vanek was coming off one very good season. Penner was coming off one very good season. Backes had a 13-goal career best at that point. Bernier was a marginal second liner. Hjalmarsson was just breaking in to the top 4. Weber is the first truly bonafide star to be offersheeted.

If Ottawa values Jamie Benn at 5 years, $6 million per season, does that mean they're driving up prices? Or does that mean they're trying to find a reasonable number for a guy who's been a 20+ goal scorer since coming in to the league?

If anything, Philadelphia's offer sheet has been the most destructive. The way they have front-loaded Weber's offer sheet and put massive amounts of bonus money in there is a detriment to teams as this will become a common expectation in future negotiations for upper tier free agents.
Not necessarily, your list excludes players who declined to sign.

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07-20-2012, 08:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BK201 View Post
It's happening a lot in basketball. Not sure if it's a good thing or not though.
Theirs no compensation in basketball like there is in hockey. In the NBA they have a certain number of days to decide to match or not and if not they just lose him.

So its basically UFA with ability to match.

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07-20-2012, 09:21 PM
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I would absolutely offer sheet Benn at 10 years, $6,728,780.

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07-20-2012, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by inthewings View Post
I would absolutely offer sheet Benn at 10 years, $6,728,780.
We'd need to get the 2nd back from St-Lou, and Dallas would match.

5 x 5 for Subban or Voracek. 1st and a 3rd compensation

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07-20-2012, 09:25 PM
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We'd need to get the 2nd back from St-Lou, and Dallas would match.

5 x 5 for Subban or Voracek. 1st and a 3rd compensation
Montreal easily matches. Philly doesn't. I don't think I'd be very happy with that Voracek deal, especially considering the picks.

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Old
07-20-2012, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by inthewings View Post
I would absolutely offer sheet Benn at 10 years, $6,728,780.
That's 4 1st rounders...anything over 5 years, the total value of the deal gets divided by 5 to determine the compensation (i.e., 10*6.728780 = 67.2878; 67.2878/5 = 13.45756 or 4 1st rounders). Note: I could be mistaken, but that's how I always understood it.

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07-20-2012, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Nabokov20 View Post
That's 4 1st rounders...anything over 5 years, the total value of the deal gets divided by 5 to determine the compensation (i.e., 10*6.728780 = 67.2878; 67.2878/5 = 13.45756 or 4 1st rounders). Note: I could be mistaken, but that's how I always understood it.
Benn isn't worth 4 first rounders, especially in our position

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07-20-2012, 11:41 PM
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Benn isn't worth 4 first rounders, especially in our position
kind of what i was getting at...

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07-20-2012, 11:45 PM
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It also takes two to tango. You can't just decide you're going to sign a player to an offer sheet, they have to agree to do that. In doing so, they have to be willing to leave their existing team or (even worse IMO) have them match and be stuck with an employer who is extremely pissed you stopped negotiating with them and tried to jump ship and forced them to pay way more for you then they initially wanted to.

I think the only players that you have a remote chance of actually acquiring through this method are players whose team is in huge trouble with their cap and who you massively overpay in order to make the contract so repugnant that their own team would be crazy to match.

So you end up taking on a guy (like Penner for example) who has very little chance of living up to the contract and you get to give up a bunch of high picks for that privilege.

If you want the guy so badly, just trade for him and then sign him to a more reasonable deal. Makes a lot more sense than overpaying to such a degree that you end up regretting it or that you just wasted everyone's time by having the guy just end up with his old team anyways when they match.

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07-21-2012, 12:08 AM
  #22
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Originally Posted by Caje View Post
Because then other GMs will start playing dirty with you. Do you really want to piss off other GMs when we always have a few RFAs coming up ourselves every year?
Where was all the offer sheets tendered toward Edmonton RFAs after the Penner/Vanek offer sheets? People get caught up in this mentality too often. Every GM in the league is always looking at ways to improve their teams. I just don't understand why something negotiated in to the CBA appears to be so completely vulgar to people. If I was GM, I would probably try for an offer sheet every season.

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07-21-2012, 12:37 AM
  #23
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Where was all the offer sheets tendered toward Edmonton RFAs after the Penner/Vanek offer sheets? People get caught up in this mentality too often. Every GM in the league is always looking at ways to improve their teams. I just don't understand why something negotiated in to the CBA appears to be so completely vulgar to people. If I was GM, I would probably try for an offer sheet every season.
Thank god you're not a GM then. The reason why it's not done has less to do with a "gentleman's agreement" then it does with it being a huge waste of time 99% of the time and even when it works you end up with an hugely overpaid asset and down a few 1st rounders.

That's why trades happen. It's not that those players don't switch teams, it's that they don't switch teams using that method.

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07-21-2012, 08:53 AM
  #24
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I've got no problem with the offer sheet, but this exposes how the rich teams can exploit the less wealthy ones . Rich owners are pissed about revenue sharing, and if matched it guarantees Nashville will be losing money for years. There is outside pressure on Nashville from the league and other owners to stay profitable, and in the end will be why they don't match. Hopefully the future CBA makes it an even dollar amount and no burying large contracts in the minors, the league is beginning to become 2 tiered.

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Old
07-21-2012, 09:06 AM
  #25
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Originally Posted by DefenseMinister View Post
Thank god you're not a GM then. The reason why it's not done has less to do with a "gentleman's agreement" then it does with it being a huge waste of time 99% of the time and even when it works you end up with an hugely overpaid asset and down a few 1st rounders.

That's why trades happen. It's not that those players don't switch teams, it's that they don't switch teams using that method.
My first post outlined the kind of players you could acquire right now with an RFA offer sheet. You're telling me it would be a huge waste of time to acquire Jamie Benn or Evander Kane on a 5 year contract with an AAV no higher than $6.7 million?

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