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Weber Signs OS w/ Philly (14 yrs, $110 mil - $7.85 mil cap hit) Mod Warning Post 364

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07-20-2012, 06:53 PM
  #926
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
Yeah except with revenue sharing you are sending that money to teams who aren't as financially stable without it, which means the entire league stabilizes. With your idea you are continuing to take money out of the pockets of owners (both with lower ticket prices and with revenue sharing) while also hurting smaller market teams. It's just a bad idea.
But equal ticket pricing and rev sharing for all is fair for all. Remember the NHL is still a business and business is never fair it is a PITA that some business has to prop up other business when in the real world the struggling business fold and closes up shop or moves to an area that it can be more successfully. I am a huge HABS fan but I am also cold an unfeeling when it comes to players movement contraction or anything that will help the league become better. I could care less if the HABS played in Montreal or Nunavut I travel to see them no matter where they play. I have not cared about the names on the back of our jerseys since the early to mid 80s names come and go the crest on the front is all I care about and the banners in the rafters. I see this as my fav sport and as a business and in business sometimes things happen we do not like be it a trade or a player leaving to free agency etc. If we are trying to make things fair for all it takes away the spirit of the game and that sucks.

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07-20-2012, 06:55 PM
  #927
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I think if the league were going to kill it they would have by now.
I agree and I am pretty sure Holmgren passed this by the league for approval before everyone signed off on it so as to eliminate a situation like Jersey had with Kovalchuk last season. We certainly would have heard Bettman or Daly comment on it by now if it was being looked into.

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07-20-2012, 06:55 PM
  #928
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NHL should kill this if I get it right. Cap limit on a player is 20%, or $14M on $70M ceiling. So Weber is getting $27M in year one, that doesnt sound right, but Im not a CBA expert obviously. Hope it works out for you guys and that you can keep Weber.
13 million due at signing + 1 mil first season salary + 13 million due July 1st 2013 = 27 million in the first year.

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07-20-2012, 06:59 PM
  #929
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But equal ticket pricing and rev sharing for all is fair for all. Remember the NHL is still a business and business is never fair it is a PITA that some business has to prop up other business when in the real world the struggling business fold and closes up shop or moves to an area that it can be more successfully. I am a huge HABS fan but I am also cold an unfeeling when it comes to players movement contraction or anything that will help the league become better. I could care less if the HABS played in Montreal or Nunavut I travel to see them no matter where they play. I have not cared about the names on the back of our jerseys since the early to mid 80s names come and go the crest on the front is all I care about and the banners in the rafters. I see this as my fav sport and as a business and in business sometimes things happen we do not like be it a trade or a player leaving to free agency etc. If we are trying to make things fair for all it takes away the spirit of the game and that sucks.
First of all, it wouldn't be fair for everyone. Everyone paying the same thing does not mean it is fair. It means it is standardized. Standardized testing isn't fair. Standardized ticket prices wouldn't be fair either. Why? Because it fails to take into account everything unique to each city, and it doesn't allow those with the most knowledge of the market (those who run the organizations) to set prices based on real things. You don't set prices based on "being fair". You set prices based on what the market tells you the prices should be.

Second, the NHL as a whole is a business. Each team is a subsidiary. Corporations routinely use money from their most profitable daughter companies to support their least profitable daughter companies. You have a problem with it happening here because you feel slighted by it. Montreal has to play by the same rules as Nashville or Phoenix even though they have enough money to buy both clubs. It's too bad that they can't just throw money around without caring. It doesn't work that way anymore. Montreal, Toronto, New York, etc still have the ability to prey on smaller markets, but they don't have the ability to simply spend money however they want without worrying about it.

And good for you. It must be nice to be able to remove yourself emotionally from those things. I'm sure a lot of fans in Nashville would like to detach themselves like that, but a lot of people can't. Everyone is different.

But you don't see this as a business. If you did you would see why it makes sense to have revenue sharing, and you wouldn't want to implement ideas like standardized ticket prices because it's "fair". You see revenue sharing as a slight to your team, and you want to go back to the days of dynasty teams.

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07-20-2012, 07:01 PM
  #930
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yianik View Post
NHL should kill this if I get it right. Cap limit on a player is 20%, or $14M on $70M ceiling. So Weber is getting $27M in year one, that doesnt sound right, but Im not a CBA expert obviously. Hope it works out for you guys and that you can keep Weber.
It's circumvented because 13M is bonus money. I could be wrong, but I believe that is why it is acceptable.

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07-20-2012, 07:10 PM
  #931
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If they match the offer sheet and there's a lockout and no hockey next year, they lose $26 MILLION on Shea Weber's bonuses.
To be honest, this isn't correct. Each $13M is a signing bonus for the season ahead of it. The $13M paid now is the signing bonus for 2012-13 and the $13M paid next July 1st is the signing bonus for 2013-14. Even if the entire 2012-13 season is lost to lockout, the 2013-14 season will happen, so that second $13M will be earned. That means that only $13M will be "lost" if lockout wipes out the upcoming year.

Also, even that isn't as bad as it sounds. They're not "losing" the whole $13M, since they'll still eventually benefit from the low salary that he'll be making later in his contract and which the heavy front-loading made possible. It's like making a large down payment on a house and then not being able to move in for a year. It stinks that you can't immediately use what you paid for, but that down payment will mean that, eventually, you'll get to live in the house at a lower monthly rate, so not all is lost. Weber would get $13M without having to play, but it wouldn't get him out of playing for a discount later in the contract.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yianik View Post
NHL should kill this if I get it right. Cap limit on a player is 20%, or $14M on $70M ceiling. So Weber is getting $27M in year one, that doesnt sound right, but Im not a CBA expert obviously.
The CBA considers "year one" to end on the last day of June. We can't just decide for the sake of our arguments that "year one" ends one calendar year from now. That's not how the CBA defines it and that's all that matters. As far as the CBA goes, Weber will make only $14M in the first year, and that's fully within the rules.

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07-20-2012, 07:11 PM
  #932
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Originally Posted by yianik View Post
NHL should kill this if I get it right. Cap limit on a player is 20%, or $14M on $70M ceiling. So Weber is getting $27M in year one, that doesnt sound right, but Im not a CBA expert obviously. Hope it works out for you guys and that you can keep Weber.
Where it might be within one years time it is in two years of the contract since it moves to a new contract year July 1.

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07-20-2012, 07:19 PM
  #933
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
First of all, it wouldn't be fair for everyone. Everyone paying the same thing does not mean it is fair. It means it is standardized. Standardized testing isn't fair. Standardized ticket prices wouldn't be fair either. Why? Because it fails to take into account everything unique to each city, and it doesn't allow those with the most knowledge of the market (those who run the organizations) to set prices based on real things. You don't set prices based on "being fair". You set prices based on what the market tells you the prices should be.

Second, the NHL as a whole is a business. Each team is a subsidiary. Corporations routinely use money from their most profitable daughter companies to support their least profitable daughter companies. You have a problem with it happening here because you feel slighted by it. Montreal has to play by the same rules as Nashville or Phoenix even though they have enough money to buy both clubs. It's too bad that they can't just throw money around without caring. It doesn't work that way anymore. Montreal, Toronto, New York, etc still have the ability to prey on smaller markets, but they don't have the ability to simply spend money however they want without worrying about it.

And good for you. It must be nice to be able to remove yourself emotionally from those things. I'm sure a lot of fans in Nashville would like to detach themselves like that, but a lot of people can't. Everyone is different.

But you don't see this as a business. If you did you would see why it makes sense to have revenue sharing, and you wouldn't want to implement ideas like standardized ticket prices because it's "fair". You see revenue sharing as a slight to your team, and you want to go back to the days of dynasty teams.
Nothing wrong with a good dynasty

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07-20-2012, 07:26 PM
  #934
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Originally Posted by 29dryden29 View Post
But equal ticket pricing and rev sharing for all is fair for all. Remember the NHL is still a business and business is never fair it is a PITA that some business has to prop up other business when in the real world the struggling business fold and closes up shop or moves to an area that it can be more successfully. I am a huge HABS fan but I am also cold an unfeeling when it comes to players movement contraction or anything that will help the league become better. I could care less if the HABS played in Montreal or Nunavut I travel to see them no matter where they play. I have not cared about the names on the back of our jerseys since the early to mid 80s names come and go the crest on the front is all I care about and the banners in the rafters. I see this as my fav sport and as a business and in business sometimes things happen we do not like be it a trade or a player leaving to free agency etc. If we are trying to make things fair for all it takes away the spirit of the game and that sucks.
socialism , from a canadian, how surprising.

market sets the ticket price, teams set the ticket prices..... they are individually owned and operated.

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07-20-2012, 07:27 PM
  #935
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Nothing wrong with a good dynasty
The dynasty in Montreal ended about the same time the nighttime soap of the same name ended on TV.

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07-20-2012, 07:29 PM
  #936
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Originally Posted by predfan98 View Post
socialism , from a canadian, how surprising.

market sets the ticket price, teams set the ticket prices..... they are individually owned and operated.
Then why do 20 other teams have to prop up 10 teams with rev sharing if they truly are individually owned and operated?? If it is truly as you say then it should be true capitalism and each team should set pricing and keep ALL the money they make after paying salaries.

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07-20-2012, 07:30 PM
  #937
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The dynasty in Montreal ended about the same time the nighttime soap of the same name ended on TV.
I love a good hockey dynasty be it the Isles the Oil the HABS or yes even the Laffs or Bs as much as I hate to admit it.

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07-20-2012, 07:43 PM
  #938
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Originally Posted by 29dryden29 View Post
Then why do 20 other teams have to prop up 10 teams with rev sharing if they truly are individually owned and operated?? If it is truly as you say then it should be true capitalism and each team should set pricing and keep ALL the money they make after paying salaries.
They are individually owned and operated within the structure of a mother corporation (the NHL). Revenue sharing makes sense because we are talking about a corporation with 30 daughter corporations, each existing with their own leases. The league cannot simply move or dissolve these daughter corporations because of the leases. The choices are 1) allow some teams to operate at huge profits while others operate at huge losses, or 2) use some of the huge profits to offset some of the huge losses. It's pretty simple really. If it weren't good for the league maybe you can explain the growth of the league since revenue sharing has come into existence.

I often see people complain about how unfair RS is, but it is almost always the same people who bemoan the salary cap. The fans who want their teams to be able to spend as much money as they want on player salary are the ones who seem to have their feelings hurt so badly by RS. The funny thing is it isn't even their money so they shouldn't care. It isn't hurting anyone. It isn't causing teams to have lower payroll (the salary cap does that nicely).

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07-20-2012, 07:50 PM
  #939
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Remember when people would assert how it was possible Weber/Suter/Rinne would be offer sheeted if Poile sat on his hands?

People always poo poo the notion--citing how few offer sheets have been extended since the lockout, and how almost 100% of the time the home team matched.

Well here we are. Offer sheet signed. Match.......uncertain.


Last edited by TMI: 07-20-2012 at 07:52 PM. Reason: stop name calling
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07-20-2012, 07:57 PM
  #940
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They are individually owned and operated within the structure of a mother corporation (the NHL). Revenue sharing makes sense because we are talking about a corporation with 30 daughter corporations, each existing with their own leases. The league cannot simply move or dissolve these daughter corporations because of the leases. The choices are 1) allow some teams to operate at huge profits while others operate at huge losses, or 2) use some of the huge profits to offset some of the huge losses. It's pretty simple really. If it weren't good for the league maybe you can explain the growth of the league since revenue sharing has come into existence.

I often see people complain about how unfair RS is, but it is almost always the same people who bemoan the salary cap. The fans who want their teams to be able to spend as much money as they want on player salary are the ones who seem to have their feelings hurt so badly by RS. The funny thing is it isn't even their money so they shouldn't care. It isn't hurting anyone. It isn't causing teams to have lower payroll (the salary cap does that nicely).
WOuld I like to see the cap gone sure but I really don't care about it too much one way or the other. Teams with money still spend it and it keeps going up and up much to the schagrin of teams that tend to be closer to the cap floor. Unfortunatly fans on both sides are complaining about the cap.

Ok this has gone pretty far off the topic at hand so about the Weber deal. With 4 first rounders added in you would have 2 in each of the next 4 years. Next year the first round is supposed to be chocker block full of high end kids that could help take the sting out of losing Weber just think you could be in the running for any one of them in the top 5. I am hoping the HABS tank again I would love another top 5 pick next season to help in re stocking the cupboard.

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07-20-2012, 08:14 PM
  #941
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Originally Posted by gopreds19 View Post
Remember when people would assert how it was possible Weber/Suter/Rinne would be offer sheeted if Poile sat on his hands?

People always poo poo the notion--citing how few offer sheets have been extended since the lockout, and how almost 100% of the time the home team matched.

Well here we are. Offer sheet signed. Match.......uncertain.
Offer sheets are extremely rare. This is even moreso with the unprecedented structure. NO offer to date in the league has been so front loaded, so bonus laden, so unable to insure.

Look back at the structure of EVERY contract prior to this summer and we're probably able to match easily. Look at EVERY offer sheet up until this one and matching is easy based on the stable payment structure.

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07-20-2012, 08:28 PM
  #942
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Offer sheets are extremely rare. This is even moreso with the unprecedented structure. NO offer to date in the league has been so front loaded, so bonus laden, so unable to insure.

Look back at the structure of EVERY contract prior to this summer and we're probably able to match easily. Look at EVERY offer sheet up until this one and matching is easy based on the stable payment structure.
There's always a first and it's a GM's responsibility to look at every possible option and/or loophole in any agreement. While this was the first set of front loaded deals like this, it was a possibility that every GM should be aware of. Holmgren was, why wasn't Poile?

No offense but I agree with you on the point of offer sheets and what they used to look like but there is due diligence that was missed by Poile on this one. You know as well as anyone around here that I have been more than supportive of Poile throughout the years but this offseason he royally screwed the pooch.

There are two options with this OS, one is bad, one is worse. I feel like I'm dating an ex here who always gave me two choices like this. Best of luck to Poile and the owners trying to figure this one out.

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07-20-2012, 08:51 PM
  #943
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There's always a first and it's a GM's responsibility to look at every possible option and/or loophole in any agreement. While this was the first set of front loaded deals like this, it was a possibility that every GM should be aware of. Holmgren was, why wasn't Poile?

No offense but I agree with you on the point of offer sheets and what they used to look like but there is due diligence that was missed by Poile on this one. You know as well as anyone around here that I have been more than supportive of Poile throughout the years but this offseason he royally screwed the pooch.

There are two options with this OS, one is bad, one is worse. I feel like I'm dating an ex here who always gave me two choices like this. Best of luck to Poile and the owners trying to figure this one out.
This is beyond Holmgren ... this is Mr Comcast and his deep pockets getting involved and throwing early money around in a scale never seen in the league. Over twice what Suter, Parise, or Brad Richards received in bonuses. A bonus that pays more than Crosby earns total in the first six years of his new contract. This is the summer of owners getting directly involved in long term contracts with huge bonus structure while simultaneously approaching the NHLPA with proposals to eliminate just the type deals they offer.

The Preds can compete on average salary. Where they can't compete is in easily tossed around cash.

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07-20-2012, 08:55 PM
  #944
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This is beyond Holmgren ... this is Mr Comcast and his deep pockets getting involved and throwing early money around in a scale never seen in the league. Over twice what Suter, Parise, or Brad Richards received in bonuses. A bonus that pays more than Crosby earns total in the first six years of his new contract. This is the summer of owners getting directly involved in long term contracts with huge bonus structure while simultaneously approaching the NHLPA with proposals to eliminate just the type deals they offer.

The Preds can compete on average salary. Where they can't compete is in easily tossed around cash.
And while this is true, if Poile knew this could happen, why did he not just give a blank contract to Weber and say, fill out the numbers and term you want and we'd love to have you as the face of our franchise? While Snider went above and beyond the spirit of the CBA, Poile still has to be aware that something like this could happen. Isn't that what he gets paid to do?

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07-20-2012, 09:01 PM
  #945
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So you'd cut off you nose to spite your face.
If by that you mean match the offer sheet then yes. But I have no problem letting him know that that contract is a huge reason they are not able to build the team around him that he would like for likely 6 seasons.

This franchise cannot afford to lose both Suter and Weber in the same offseason but it is also not one that can afford to bring back the rest of the team, try to replace Suter with a decent player and also pay Weber the obscene amount of money he is due over the next calendar year. Something has to give and IMO that is coming out of the budget for the rest of team and Suter replacement.

Weber hamstrung his team financially for a good 6 years and I hope he enjoys playing on said team.

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07-20-2012, 09:08 PM
  #946
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And while this is true, if Poile knew this could happen, why did he not just give a blank contract to Weber and say, fill out the numbers and term you want and we'd love to have you as the face of our franchise? While Snider went above and beyond the spirit of the CBA, Poile still has to be aware that something like this could happen. Isn't that what he gets paid to do?
Poile gets paid to operate within the guidelines of his bosses .... the owners. IF Weber really was holding out for a deal with this type of structure, it's unlikely that our ownership group could ever make such an offer. This deal is nearly means 100% of gross gate receipts for any given season going to Rinne and Weber over the next 50 weeks (gross receipts at $50 avg ticket price, 16.8k sold is under $35mil). We're all expecting Poile to foresee a deal that contains 2.7x the bonuses as what Parise and Suter received ... and their deals were record setting under this CBA for massive payments in such a short duration. The Wild contracts .... Liepold directly involved ... this one has all of the hallmarks of Snider directly involved ... both with deeper pockets than our owners have.

You can plan for the expected ... you can project based on past growth patterns ... you can't predict the wildcard moves of a joker.

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07-20-2012, 09:22 PM
  #947
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I can't wait to find out either way, this is intense, my two favourite teams too.

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07-20-2012, 09:25 PM
  #948
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THIS IS A PARODY, but it's funny:

https://twitter.com/davidpoile/statu...83199126159360

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07-20-2012, 09:34 PM
  #949
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Offer sheets are extremely rare. This is even moreso with the unprecedented structure. NO offer to date in the league has been so front loaded, so bonus laden, so unable to insure.

Look back at the structure of EVERY contract prior to this summer and we're probably able to match easily. Look at EVERY offer sheet up until this one and matching is easy based on the stable payment structure.
Haha I knew you'd take the bait. The fact that Holmgren envisioned this meant Poile should have too. And really, its not that big of a stretch, even if it is the first time it's happened.

Think about it, cash strapped team lets best defenseman on the planet go to RFA. The player comes by to kick the tired, and the GM wants him. So how does that happen without the other team marching?

Hit he other team right where it hurts, with upfront money and uninsurable bonuses. It's actually a pretty shrewd and savvy move, even though it is a d move also.

I wish our GM had those stones. But I'm sure you still foregive him. Actualy, do you? Do you think blameless in this, and if so, what do you blame him for?

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07-20-2012, 09:37 PM
  #950
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The more I think about this, the more I could see Preds ownership matching this. However, if this occurs, there'll be very little money to spend elsewhere for several years. The cap and cap floor will probably go down when the next CBA is signed so that won't be a problem. The problem is the huge burden of $27M, $13M of which is due as soon as it's matched. If that happens, expect 2 rookies/Blum on D next year and 1 league-minimum vet d-man [Jim Vandermeer would be nice], I also wouldn't be surprised if the Preds start the season with McGrattan as the 12th and final forward, which would be nice for me because I love enforcers.

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