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Habs Board 2012 Prospect Rankings #26-30

View Poll Results: Pick your top 5 remaining prospects
Josiah Didier, D 92 73.60%
Greg Pateryn, D 99 79.20%
Olivier Archambault, LW 74 59.20%
Colin Sullivan, D 28 22.40%
Michael Cichy, C 7 5.60%
Joe Stejskal, D 9 7.20%
Maxim Trunev, RW 19 15.20%
Alain Berger, RW 13 10.40%
Erik Nystrom, LW 77 61.60%
Peter Delmas, G 9 7.20%
Robert Mayer, G 0 0%
Dustin Walsh, C 30 24.00%
Ian Schultz, RW 64 51.20%
Magnus Nygren, D 50 40.00%
Phillippe Lefebvre, LW 3 2.40%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 125. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-21-2012, 10:11 AM
  #26
Ohashi_Jouzu
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
I think you're underrating Schultz. I know it's just stats but he had a nice 2nd half to the season (22 points in last 45 games) and he's shown great improvement in his game from year to year. Both Berger and Schultz have huge skating issues but at least Schultz has some aspects to his game that we may benefit from if he pans out. He also actually showed to be some use at the Pro level as well.

I mean...we just gave Prust 2.5M. He had worse stats in junior even with the over ager year. In the first couple seasons in the AHL as a 21 and 22 year old he put up 26 and 27 points. At 21, Schultz put up 23 points with all pretty much coming in the last 45 games (around 0.5pts/game). If he can maintain or perhaps even improve that 0.5pts/game we might have ourselves a big guy who can fight but also play a little.

This late in the prospect ranking, especially considering the lack of depth compared to 5+ years ago, Schultz shouldn't be a surprise vote.
With Didier, Archambault, Sullivan, Nystrom, Nygren, heck, even Pateryn and Delmas/Mayer... sorry, Schultz is a disappointing surprise. He might get his chance on a team traditionally built as soft as the Habs, but his lack of skills in so many areas prevents him from ever looking like he belongs in the NHL, imo.

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07-21-2012, 10:19 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
With Didier, Archambault, Sullivan, Nystrom, Nygren, heck, even Pateryn and Delmas/Mayer... sorry, Schultz is a disappointing surprise. He might get his chance on a team traditionally built as soft as the Habs, but his lack of skills in so many areas prevents him from ever looking like he belongs in the NHL, imo.
22 points in the last 45 games of the season is worth noting IMO. That is pretty good numbers especially considering it's mostly even strength (since I assume he doesn't play much PP). His shot total is also something I find interesting (1.55/game). For a 3rd/4th liner AHLer that's pretty good.

He has flaws, no doubt, but I think you are ignoring some of the positives he's shown outside of his fighting.

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07-21-2012, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
22 points in the last 45 games of the season is worth noting IMO. That is pretty good numbers especially considering it's mostly even strength (since I assume he doesn't play much PP). His shot total is also something I find interesting (1.55/game). For a 3rd/4th liner AHLer that's pretty good.

He has flaws, no doubt, but I think you are ignoring some of the positives he's shown outside of his fighting.
Not really. I just don't find any of his positives, well, that positive. And points in the AHL mean very little, as well all know from our experience with AHL scoring leader Corey Locke. Now, it's possible that I may still be overly biased by the reports from the scouts I know out in Alberta who used to watch him every day and laughed at me (electronically, of course) when I asked about his possible NHL future at the time of the trade, but still...

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07-21-2012, 11:23 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Not really. I just don't find any of his positives, well, that positive. And points in the AHL mean very little, as well all know from our experience with AHL scoring leader Corey Locke. Now, it's possible that I may still be overly biased by the reports from the scouts I know out in Alberta who used to watch him every day and laughed at me (electronically, of course) when I asked about his possible NHL future at the time of the trade, but still...
You can't claim that Berger is highly skilled and Schultz devoid of skill when they put up similar numbers in junior and Schultz outscored Berger in Hamilton this season. I am not denying that Berger may be the more skilled of the two but the difference is hardly the vast chasm that you allude to. How skilled can Berger really be when he was the lowest scoring forward amongst the top two lines in Oshawa during his final season (and this was as a 20 year old!!!)

You also say that Berger is bigger than Schultz when Schultz is listed as 1 inch taller and ten pounds heavier, not to mention a heck of alot tougher. From this you somehow extrapolate that Berger is also stronger. This is almost as laughable as your original statement that Berger was a better skater than Schultz. There is also the fact that Schultz was drafted in the 3rd round while Berger was not drafted at all. Who are these scouts that you claim to know in Alberta??? Tell me they are not the mullet heads from the Oiler boards...

You can't claim to be all high and mighty then procede to post this kind of nonsense.

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07-21-2012, 11:31 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
You can't claim that Berger is highly skilled and Schultz devoid of skill when they put up similar numbers in junior and Schultz outscored Berger in Hamilton this season. I am not denying that Berger may be the more skilled of the two but the difference is hardly the vast chasm that you allude to. How skilled can Berger really be when he was the lowest scoring forward amongst the top two lines in Oshawa during his final season (and this was as a 20 year old!!!)

You also say that Berger is bigger than Schultz when Schultz is listed as 1 inch taller and ten pounds heavier, not to mention a heck of alot tougher. From this you somehow extrapolate that Berger is also stronger. This is almost as laughable as your original statement that Berger was a better skater than Schultz. There is also the fact that Schultz was drafted in the 3rd round while Berger was not drafted at all. Who are these scouts that you claim to know in Alberta??? Tell me they are not the mullet heads from the Oiler boards...

You can't claim to be all high and mighty then procede to post this kind of nonsense.
See all that bolded stuff? You made all that up, lol. How am I supposed to respond to any of that?

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07-21-2012, 11:37 AM
  #31
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Just to add to the discussion but I used to live in Oshawa and I went to 4-5 games last year and I never came away impressed by Berger, especially for an overrager. The notable things he did with his limited speed was stand in front of the net and go for dirty goals.

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07-21-2012, 11:46 AM
  #32
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Just to add to the discussion but I used to live in Oshawa and I went to 4-5 games last year and I never came away impressed by Berger, especially for an overrager. The notable things he did with his limited speed was stand in front of the net and go for dirty goals.
That's basically what he's here for.

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07-21-2012, 12:01 PM
  #33
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That's basically what he's here for.
Well......He isn't here and won't be here unless he learns how to skate.

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07-21-2012, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
See all that bolded stuff? You made all that up, lol. How am I supposed to respond to any of that?
In post #24 you clearly said that berger was bigger lol.

As for the skatng, in your fist post you basically said Schultz was only good for throwing punches, then you went on to list skating as a positive for Berger. This would certainly lead one to believe that you consider Berger to be a superior skater to Schultz.

The fact that you thought Berger was a good skater shows that you don't know anything about him. His skating truly is horrific.....not one of those things a skilled eye could possibly overlook if you had ever actually watched him play.

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07-21-2012, 04:13 PM
  #35
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In few years, I think Vail andMacMillan will be the prospects that will surprise us the most!
MacMillan won't be a surprise to me as I was really impressed with him this year since North Dakota is on tv a lot. Once he fills out his frame and gets stronger he's going to get more attention i'm guessing. Very skilled playmaker, but what I really liked to see was him getting some time on the top line as well as regular PP and PK duties. Granted ND was really banged up this year and couldn't even dress a full lineup at times but still for a Freshman he got good ice time and showed good things for much of the season (he struggled at times to produce but got hot late in the season and into the playoffs, always good to see that)

Vail I hope to see at some point next season, don't know much about him yet but like what i've heard so far.






As for the Schultz/Berger talk,

I wanted the Habs to draft Schultz, but last season in Hamilton I was very disappointed as he struggled to keep up with the play and had some injury issues. This year though he was much better, and fit in well on a line with Dumont. His skating and mobility are a big problem for him but he appeared to have worked on it as he was able to be much more effective in Hamilton and I could see him getting some games with the Habs in the next year or two.

Berger was terrible in Hamilton at the start of the year, his skating and mobility are poor and like Schultz in his first year he greatly struggled to keep up with the play. That said he did improve in the 2nd half and started to do some things in close that at least showed he could be a 4th liner for the Dogs next season perhaps.

So I would wait and see how Berger responds, as both Schultz and Berger were just not very good in their first AHL season. Schultz was much improved in his 2nd season, hopefully for Berger he can do the same although if I were a betting man my money wouldn't be on him becoming a solid 4th liner in the NHL.

If we are talking about their NHL upside, I'd take Schultz over Berger at this point, as Schultz, if he can continue to improve his skating/mobility he has the makings of a possible decent 4th liner as he will hit, drop the gloves, and actually has some hands. Berger while a little taller, he's not as physical although perhaps with steady ice time that will change as he was in and out of the lineup all year and barely had any consistent ice time. Perhaps he could be a 4th liner some day if he can improve his skating/mobility by a good bit. I know he will drop the gloves but not sure that's something he'll be very good at.

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07-22-2012, 12:15 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
In post #24 you clearly said that berger was bigger lol.

As for the skatng, in your fist post you basically said Schultz was only good for throwing punches, then you went on to list skating as a positive for Berger. This would certainly lead one to believe that you consider Berger to be a superior skater to Schultz.

The fact that you thought Berger was a good skater shows that you don't know anything about him. His skating truly is horrific.....not one of those things a skilled eye could possibly overlook if you had ever actually watched him play.
No, go back and either re-read the posts, or quote the exact and entire passages you're referring to, and I'll point out where your leaps in logic have led you astray.

But seriously, let's back up a second. I'm pretty sure Berger has a couple of inches and even a couple of pounds on Schultz (certainly looks that way to me - have you actually seen these guys play?), so why are you laughing??

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07-22-2012, 12:27 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by montreal View Post
If we are talking about their NHL upside, I'd take Schultz over Berger at this point, as Schultz, if he can continue to improve his skating/mobility he has the makings of a possible decent 4th liner as he will hit, drop the gloves, and actually has some hands. Berger while a little taller, he's not as physical although perhaps with steady ice time that will change as he was in and out of the lineup all year and barely had any consistent ice time. Perhaps he could be a 4th liner some day if he can improve his skating/mobility by a good bit. I know he will drop the gloves but not sure that's something he'll be very good at.
You find that Schultz has better hands than Berger? I totally don't agree. Regardless of what their respective points totals were last year, I see significantly more puck skills in Berger. As such, the only way I'd try to develop a Schultz over a Berger is if my team had a serious inferiority/toughness complex, and had enough talent that a plug like Schultz could find a role in there somewhere.

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07-22-2012, 01:14 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
You find that Schultz has better hands than Berger? I totally don't agree. Regardless of what their respective points totals were last year, I see significantly more puck skills in Berger. As such, the only way I'd try to develop a Schultz over a Berger is if my team had a serious inferiority/toughness complex, and had enough talent that a plug like Schultz could find a role in there somewhere.
He didn't say that Schultz has better hands tha Berger. Read it again, he was simply stating that Schultz isn't neccesarily a "plug" as some would have you believe.

Neither one of these players have great skillsets but Schultz provides toughness which may land him a regular NHL job at some point. Berger is likely a career minor leaguer.

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07-22-2012, 01:20 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
He didn't say that Schultz has better hands tha Berger. Read it again, he was simply stating that Schultz isn't neccesarily a "plug" as some would have you believe.

Neither one of these players have great skillsets but Schultz provides toughness which may land him a regular NHL job at some point. Berger is likely a career minor leaguer.
YOU read it again. He said that Schultz "actually has hands". You seem to be English as a first language, but you're misinterpreting and misunderstanding things left and right around here. If someone "actually" has something, the implication is that the counterpart in the comparison doesn't. Now, this might be my logical leap fallacy, but it seems to me that actually having something (which can be described as a skill) is better than not having it - hence he seems to be of the opinion that Schultz has better hands than Berger.

But you should really let montreal reply on his own. You already have enough to explain, apparently being unaware that Berger is actually a couple of inches taller than Schultz, etc, etc, and accusing me of not having watched them, or knowing anything about them.

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07-23-2012, 09:11 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
You find that Schultz has better hands than Berger? I totally don't agree. Regardless of what their respective points totals were last year, I see significantly more puck skills in Berger. As such, the only way I'd try to develop a Schultz over a Berger is if my team had a serious inferiority/toughness complex, and had enough talent that a plug like Schultz could find a role in there somewhere.
I didn't say that Schultz has better hands then Berger, but that Schultz actually showed some things this season and could surprise as he's not just going to be a guy that drops the gloves imo.

I like what I saw from Schultz in that he's hard working, physical and actually has some skills. Berger was just terrible, I'd be surprised if he ends up being anything for us at this point, but like I said, Schultz also looked bad in his first season but showed big improvement in his 2nd season so we'll see if Berger can really step up next season.

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07-23-2012, 10:18 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
41 votes for Schultz, lol. You guys... mad crazy. His absolute upside is 13 forward who likes to throw punches (most likely a career minor leaguer who does mostly the same).

Right now I'm kind of laughing at those who cast a vote for Schultz instead of Berger. Berger has the skating and puck skills to go with that size, and could turn into a permanent 4th liner somewhere, at least. The "most knowledgeable fan base in the league" has really let me down over the past 10 picks or so.
That's ok, most people are kind of laughing at your high opinion of yourself.

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07-23-2012, 06:47 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by montreal View Post
I didn't say that Schultz has better hands then Berger.
Okay, well I totally don't understand what you were saying here, then:

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Originally Posted by montreal View Post
If we are talking about their NHL upside, I'd take Schultz over Berger at this point, as Schultz, if he can continue to improve his skating/mobility he has the makings of a possible decent 4th liner as he will hit, drop the gloves, and actually has some hands.
?

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Originally Posted by montreal View Post
I like what I saw from Schultz in that he's hard working, physical and actually has some skills. Berger was just terrible, I'd be surprised if he ends up being anything for us at this point, but like I said, Schultz also looked bad in his first season but showed big improvement in his 2nd season so we'll see if Berger can really step up next season.
Yeah, I think it's wise to give Berger a bit wider of a development window than Schultz. Schultz is a very, very poor man's Ryan White on his best day, while there really isn't a 6'4" RH winger to compare Berger to at this time... AND he's younger and bound to take a year or two longer (at least?) to develop/adapt physically because of his size at a young age. Maybe their upper potential in terms of the depth chart is similar, but because of what I just wrote, I'd trade Schultz 1-for-1 to get Berger last year, this year, and probably next year, too; without hesitation.

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07-23-2012, 06:48 PM
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That's ok, most people are kind of laughing at your high opinion of yourself.
So what?

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07-23-2012, 11:50 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Okay, well I totally don't understand what you were saying here, then:



?



Yeah, I think it's wise to give Berger a bit wider of a development window than Schultz. Schultz is a very, very poor man's Ryan White on his best day, while there really isn't a 6'4" RH winger to compare Berger to at this time... AND he's younger and bound to take a year or two longer (at least?) to develop/adapt physically because of his size at a young age. Maybe their upper potential in terms of the depth chart is similar, but because of what I just wrote, I'd trade Schultz 1-for-1 to get Berger last year, this year, and probably next year, too; without hesitation.

So clearly I did understand exactly what was being said. You really are making a fool of yourself in this thread.

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07-24-2012, 07:39 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
So clearly I did understand exactly what was being said. You really are making a fool of yourself in this thread.
Yeah, "clearly".

Try harder son, you'll make it one day.

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07-24-2012, 03:00 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Okay, well I totally don't understand what you were saying here, then:

Yeah, I think it's wise to give Berger a bit wider of a development window than Schultz. Schultz is a very, very poor man's Ryan White on his best day, while there really isn't a 6'4" RH winger to compare Berger to at this time... AND he's younger and bound to take a year or two longer (at least?) to develop/adapt physically because of his size at a young age. Maybe their upper potential in terms of the depth chart is similar, but because of what I just wrote, I'd trade Schultz 1-for-1 to get Berger last year, this year, and probably next year, too; without hesitation.
I could have worded it better I guess, but I just think that Schultz can do more then just drop the gloves.

As for Berger/Schultz in the AHL, Schultz's first year he was a 20/21 year old (turned 21 half way through the season) while Berger being a late B-date is 10 months younger (they are both '90's) so Berger turned 21 two months into the season.

At this point I would say that Schultz has the higher upside and better NHL potential, but if Berger can improve by a large amount next season then I'd consider having him higher. Personally I like Schultz in that to me he may turn into a decent 4th liner over the next couple of seasons, where Berger it's just too soon to really say but he played so poorly for much of the season in Hamilton it's hard to envision him being an NHLer at this point.

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07-24-2012, 05:03 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Yeah, "clearly".

Try harder son, you'll make it one day.
You are ridiculous. The poster confirmed that I knew exactly what he meant to say and it was you that couldn't read.

It is all moot as you are completely unknowledgeable on the subject as demonstrated by the fact that you claimed Berger was a good skater. Try actually watching these players before spouting you uninformed opinion.

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07-24-2012, 05:48 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
You are ridiculous. The poster confirmed that I knew exactly what he meant to say and it was you that couldn't read.

It is all moot as you are completely unknowledgeable on the subject as demonstrated by the fact that you claimed Berger was a good skater. Try actually watching these players before spouting you uninformed opinion.
And admitted that he could(/should?) have worded it better two hours before you wrote this reply. But big ups for using the word moot in a sentence, but please, you're the one who has been exposed for lack of knowledge here. Again, go back and quote anything specific you like from my previous posts, and continue the discussion that way, please. I'm completely uninterested in explaining the root of your misunderstanding(s) without taking at least that step.

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07-24-2012, 06:07 PM
  #49
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You're both very good posters on this forum, so I'm not sure why this has devolved into a pissing match. What's wrong with discussing things cordially? I can't imagine you guys would have this sort of tone in real life . . .

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07-24-2012, 06:29 PM
  #50
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You're both very good posters on this forum, so I'm not sure why this has devolved into a pissing match. What's wrong with discussing things cordially? I can't imagine you guys would have this sort of tone in real life . . .
Not a "pissing match". See my explanation of post #29 (in post 30). You could start from there, or take a step back to post #15; the degree of misunderstanding - and prognostication, lol - in there... I'm sure I'll have to extensively outline and explain how this guy got off the rails (imo, of course) as far back as that before too long. But yeah...

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