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View Poll Results: Will Poile be fired before the season starts?
Yes 13 15.29%
No 72 84.71%
Voters: 85. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-20-2012, 11:39 AM
  #51
ThirdManIn
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Originally Posted by gopreds19 View Post
I'd match and then negotiate and trade with NYR, BOS, Pitt, Toronto, or another of Philly's competitors. Thats where the best value is because they would not only have an interest in having Weber on their team but also wouldn't want Philly to have weber for the next 14 years.
Except the isn't possible.

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07-20-2012, 11:42 AM
  #52
token grinder
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
Except the isn't possible.
yes it is...366 days from the contract being valid

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07-20-2012, 11:55 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by token grinder View Post
yes it is...366 days from the contract being valid
Right, but in his comment he says he would match and then trade. That isn't possible. You match, pay him two bonuses and one year's salary, and then trade him the next summer. Not everything is so simple as people often assume or let on.

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07-20-2012, 04:09 PM
  #54
gopreds19
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
Right, but in his comment he says he would match and then trade. That isn't possible. You match, pay him two bonuses and one year's salary, and then trade him the next summer. Not everything is so simple as people often assume or let on.
No my point is that we trade him whenever we can. But the not match simply cannot happen. If we have to trade next summer or in two years, can't cash be one of the things that comes back?

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07-20-2012, 04:13 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gopreds19 View Post
No my point is that we trade him whenever we can. But the not match simply cannot happen. If we have to trade next summer or in two years, can't cash be one of the things that comes back?
Only if the next CBA allows it, the current one does not.

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07-20-2012, 10:12 PM
  #56
cleangene
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Last summer's disasterous off season spelled doom from the get go, IMO. Blame can go to Mr. Poile, the ownership, the coaching staff, Shea's new agent, Gnash, Paul, the Puck Patrol, or whomever. Just thinking, though, when you follow up your franchise's best season ever by only adding a Bergfors and a Sortinni, excitement and committment about the future doesn't reach major peaks. It sure didn't for me, and I doubt if it did for 2 soon to be talented free agents.

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07-20-2012, 11:44 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gopreds19 View Post
No my point is that we trade him whenever we can. But the not match simply cannot happen. If we have to trade next summer or in two years, can't cash be one of the things that comes back?
Ah ok. My mistake in misinterpreting it then. It has been answered, but, no, cash cannot come back in a trade.

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07-20-2012, 11:45 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cleangene View Post
Last summer's disasterous off season spelled doom from the get go, IMO. Blame can go to Mr. Poile, the ownership, the coaching staff, Shea's new agent, Gnash, Paul, the Puck Patrol, or whomever. Just thinking, though, when you follow up your franchise's best season ever by only adding a Bergfors and a Sortinni, excitement and committment about the future doesn't reach major peaks. It sure didn't for me, and I doubt if it did for 2 soon to be talented free agents.
Technically, the Preds followed their best season ever with an even better season, and that season was followed by this summer. But I get your point.

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07-21-2012, 02:09 AM
  #59
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You don't lose your 2 best position players in the same off season and keep your job imo, Hopefully he matches Phillys offer though.

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07-21-2012, 02:47 AM
  #60
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Will he, no. Should he, probably. Whether it's really his fault or not, that's just the way **** works. The president is responsible for the enitre country, whether he is really responsible or not. Heads must roll starting at the top.

I swore I wouldn't turn into this kind of guy. However, the circumstance prevent much positive thinking right now. :/

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07-21-2012, 08:33 AM
  #61
54fightin
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i think Poile is the most overrated GM in the NHL. He has little foresight, which cost him Suter for nothing. He mishandled the Scott Stevens situation years ago on several levels and then mismanaged the 4 number ones he received in compensation. He kept the wrong ones and traded the ones he should have kept. Even worse, as the present situation shows, he failed to learn from it. I know this is all hindsight but the better GMs have the foresight that saves them.

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07-21-2012, 11:07 AM
  #62
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07-21-2012, 11:56 AM
  #63
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The more I look at this, the more it appears that no matter what this was a no win from the beginning. If Poile shops Weber last summer or during the season and doesn't get the best trade return in history, he gets roasted here. Apparently when he did shop Weber, the asking price was too high and Philly retaliated with this offer.

The fact we didn't match this offer immediately indicates that the ownership never authorized a deal even close in structure to this one from Philly. If Poile had been given the green light to present a massively front loaded offer before the offer sheet, matching this would be a reflex response ... along with Poile's head on a stick for not following the ownership's guidance. Neither of those things happened.

What it looks like to me is that the owners gave permission to make sizable offers in terms of averaged salary and our two "core" players spent their evenings watching Jerry McGuire and wanted all the money up front. The reported offer to Suter was less than $1mil per year different than what he accepted to "be close to family" or cuddle with Parise or what ever his true logic was ... but we've yet to see details of what kind of structure that deal was built around. What bonuses did we offer, if any? How much salary was front loaded vs those final years of the contract?

Foreseeing a potential offersheet is easy. About one per year comes along, usually with an almost immediate match from the team. Predicting an offer with more bonus money in the first 50 weeks than either Suter or Parise receive in the first three seasons of their contract ... $2mil less in that 50 week span than Richards gets over six seasons from the Rangers ... well, that would be like somebody telling you on December 6, 1941 that waves of Vals and Zeroes would swarm Hawaii. Saying an attack might come somewhere is such a generalization that it can't really be wrong ... fortune tellers and telephone psychics depend on that very system to swindle customers, stating when/where/how is something nobody had before this offer sheet came down.

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07-21-2012, 12:41 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 54fightin View Post
i think Poile is the most overrated GM in the NHL. He has little foresight, which cost him Suter for nothing. He mishandled the Scott Stevens situation years ago on several levels and then mismanaged the 4 number ones he received in compensation. He kept the wrong ones and traded the ones he should have kept. Even worse, as the present situation shows, he failed to learn from it. I know this is all hindsight but the better GMs have the foresight that saves them.
True enough. I guess Holmgren is one of the better GMs since he has an owner willing to spend whatever it takes to make any move under the sun?

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07-21-2012, 02:07 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingintheNorth View Post
You don't lose your 2 best position players in the same off season and keep your job imo, Hopefully he matches Phillys offer though.
Couldn't agree more

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07-21-2012, 02:13 PM
  #66
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He won't be fired but he should be fired.

He should match the offer and then trade Webber to hockey-hell in Columbus where he can rot, on a perpetual losing franchise, for 14 years. I'd love to see that happen, because NO quality FA would willingly sign with the BJs, and the BJ will NEVER win...


Last edited by tomcat13: 07-21-2012 at 02:21 PM.
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07-21-2012, 07:31 PM
  #67
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5 years ago I'd never type this, however now, I'm a firm believer. Trotz is a better coach than Poile is a GM.

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07-21-2012, 07:41 PM
  #68
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I don't think he will be fired before the start of the season, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't be. I do think he's done a lot for this franchise and he has his strengths, but losing those two players for as little as 4 first round picks is failing. That's an epic fail.

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07-21-2012, 08:36 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
5 years ago I'd never type this, however now, I'm a firm believer. Trotz is a better coach than Poile is a GM.
I'm still not so sure. If Poile was given free reign to spend whatever, in any format, to keep Weber then yes, he deserves all blame here ... all pitchforks and torches would be appropriate. If he was told to negotiate with Weber and Suter within a set of constraints that eventually led to these situations .. then the blame lies above Poile.

How much of this is Poile's decision making ... how much is the ownership's restrictions and guidance ... how much is CBA uncertainty driving players to demand huge bonuses the Preds simply might not be able to afford ... how much is player greed ... how much is a reasonable tactic that just got beat out ... how much was a mistake from jump ... how many of the details will we ever know to honestly assess those things?

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07-21-2012, 09:13 PM
  #70
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Poile won't be fired he'll have the #2 (we'll lose the lottery) and #30 picks for the next 4 years.

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07-21-2012, 10:13 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Gnashville View Post
Poile won't be fired he'll have the #2 (we'll lose the lottery) and #30 picks for the next 4 years.
Let me guess oilers with pick #1??

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07-22-2012, 08:17 AM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
True enough. I guess Holmgren is one of the better GMs since he has an owner willing to spend whatever it takes to make any move under the sun?
I was just talking about Poile. In reality, the Flyers have only signed UFAs in the last few years. Players that any team could bid on. Holmgren's trades have been for the most part successful and citing last year risky.

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07-22-2012, 08:52 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by 54fightin View Post
I was just talking about Poile. In reality, the Flyers have only signed UFAs in the last few years. Players that any team could bid on. Holmgren's trades have been for the most part successful and citing last year risky.
Holmgren definitely has the benefit of having loads of money but he has made some brilliant moves since his tenure started.

Turned Alexei Zhitnik(An aging UFA) into Braydon Coburn.

Turned Ole-Kristian Tollefson into Ville Leino.

Made a move for Chris Pronger which got them into the SCF.

Was the first GM to acquire a player's rights when he traded for Hartnell and Timonen.

Many people make fun of him since Richards/Carter won the cup in LA but Holmgren won those deals based on short term and long term.

Simmonds alone had a better year than Richards and he also received Schenn. They are both much younger than Richards as well.

Couturier+Voracek for Carter was an absolute steal as Couturier will be twice the player that Jeff Carter is.

Holmgren is also a great drafter.

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07-22-2012, 09:29 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
I'm still not so sure. If Poile was given free reign to spend whatever, in any format, to keep Weber then yes, he deserves all blame here ... all pitchforks and torches would be appropriate. If he was told to negotiate with Weber and Suter within a set of constraints that eventually led to these situations .. then the blame lies above Poile.

How much of this is Poile's decision making ... how much is the ownership's restrictions and guidance ... how much is CBA uncertainty driving players to demand huge bonuses the Preds simply might not be able to afford ... how much is player greed ... how much is a reasonable tactic that just got beat out ... how much was a mistake from jump ... how many of the details will we ever know to honestly assess those things?
While Poile may or may not have constraints given to him, if he did, he should've known he didn't have the bucks to sign Suter or Weber and gotten fair market value for them. While people say you can't trade guys in the midst of a chance at the Cup, you can't lose two elite defensemen in the course of three weeks either, not for a piddly 4 1st round picks. He has to have enough foresight to go, hey, Suter hasn't re-signed, we may need to get something for him. Hey, Weber isn't signing long term either, hmmm, something just might be up here.

Basically Suter and Weber were each waiting for the other to sign here in Nashville. From my understanding, Poile never sat down with both Suter and Weber and said, guys, we want to build the franchise around you both, sign long term, we'll give you the long term money you want and this way, we can build a team around you. Instead, he talked to both separately and because of the lack of communication, has lost Suter and is in a no win situation with Weber.

I understand your points about constraints with ownership and the buck may stop with them but he can't know about the constraints and not doing anything about the situation with his two best players. Holland always gets credit for guys to buy into Detroit, their system, the franchise, the team and gets guys below market value to build a team around the key pieces. Poile and ownership were willing to pay market price and these guys still signed elsewhere. Something is not adding up to me from what is being presented thru the media and the boards.

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07-22-2012, 07:39 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
While Poile may or may not have constraints given to him, if he did, he should've known he didn't have the bucks to sign Suter or Weber and gotten fair market value for them. While people say you can't trade guys in the midst of a chance at the Cup, you can't lose two elite defensemen in the course of three weeks either, not for a piddly 4 1st round picks. He has to have enough foresight to go, hey, Suter hasn't re-signed, we may need to get something for him. Hey, Weber isn't signing long term either, hmmm, something just might be up here.

Basically Suter and Weber were each waiting for the other to sign here in Nashville. From my understanding, Poile never sat down with both Suter and Weber and said, guys, we want to build the franchise around you both, sign long term, we'll give you the long term money you want and this way, we can build a team around you. Instead, he talked to both separately and because of the lack of communication, has lost Suter and is in a no win situation with Weber.

I understand your points about constraints with ownership and the buck may stop with them but he can't know about the constraints and not doing anything about the situation with his two best players. Holland always gets credit for guys to buy into Detroit, their system, the franchise, the team and gets guys below market value to build a team around the key pieces. Poile and ownership were willing to pay market price and these guys still signed elsewhere. Something is not adding up to me from what is being presented thru the media and the boards.

The owners may have been willing to pay market price, on average. Change the bonus structure of the contracts this year to anything similar to early contracts and instead of $40million in bonus money to Suter and Parise over the next year, we're then looking at around $30mil total in payments ... much more manageable for the Preds than what we've seen this year. Hell, Brad Richards only got $18mil in the first two years of his bonus structure last season ... not the $26mil we're looking at for Weber if we match. A Richards-type structure is less up front cash at signing, less cash due next July 1st, and more regular salary that is insurable to mitigate risk.

You keep bringing up the Suter allegedly agreeing to years and dollars back in November rumor. The one thing we never hear is years, dollars, and structure. The two deals we've lost out on this summer both involved owners getting personally involved and opening up the checkbooks for huge short term payments. Structure is beating us out over total money across the term.

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