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07-21-2012, 01:22 PM
  #51
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I'm assuming Girgensons in the middle on that line, correct?
Maybe. Or they break him in on LW like they were doing in Dev Camp.

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07-21-2012, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Ruckus007 View Post
I'm assuming Girgensons in the middle on that line, correct?
Nope. I have him on LW.

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07-21-2012, 01:28 PM
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Maybe. Or they break him in on LW like they were doing in Dev Camp.
Thats what inspired the idea. Plus being a wing would help ease his transition to the pro game.

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07-21-2012, 01:31 PM
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Thats what inspired the idea. Plus being a wing would help ease his transition to the pro game.
Girgensons-Sundher-XXXX would be a quick duo. I wonder if Flynn gets RW duty there.

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07-21-2012, 02:55 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Is it likely Porter and Varone will have the top two center spots next season?

I'm asking because I would love to see a line with Girgs/Sundher together. Realisticly that would mostly likely happen on the 3rd line.
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Originally Posted by Ruckus007 View Post
I'm assuming Girgensons in the middle on that line, correct?
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Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
Maybe. Or they break him in on LW like they were doing in Dev Camp.
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Girgensons-Sundher-XXXX would be a quick duo. I wonder if Flynn gets RW duty there.
I would say at this point you're definitely looking at the top 9 centers, in order, being Porter-Varone-Sundher. Sundher could pass him but Varone should definitely have the edge in current projections.

Girgensons on the wing makes the most sense right now as does playing him with Sundher. I've watched a bunch of Girgensons games since we drafted him and he definitely split his time between center and winger offensively and defensively. And his play there indicated that he's not necessarily any better or worse off at one than the other. He clearly has the game to be a LW power forward offensively. Being that he's 18 it makes sense to alleviate his responsibilities a bit by giving them to the more experienced (albeit fellow AHL rookie) Sundher.

I also like the idea of putting two talented, legitimate prospects together with a veteran and letting them work their way up. Those two should be a nice fit, at least until we can reunite Girg-Grig-Armia

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07-21-2012, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Rob Paxon View Post
I would say at this point you're definitely looking at the top 9 centers, in order, being Porter-Varone-Sundher. Sundher could pass him but Varone should definitely have the edge in current projections.

Girgensons on the wing makes the most sense right now as does playing him with Sundher. I've watched a bunch of Girgensons games since we drafted him and he definitely split his time between center and winger offensively and defensively. And his play there indicated that he's not necessarily any better or worse off at one than the other. He clearly has the game to be a LW power forward offensively. Being that he's 18 it makes sense to alleviate his responsibilities a bit by giving them to the more experienced (albeit fellow AHL rookie) Sundher.

I also like the idea of putting two talented, legitimate prospects together with a veteran and letting them work their way up. Those two should be a nice fit, at least until we can reunite Girg-Grig-Armia
I agree. Wing might make is easier to make the pro adjustment--while he may be physically capable, it's still a huge jump in competition. Break him in easily, then he can shift to center if (when) there are injuries/callups/line shuffling/etc.

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07-21-2012, 03:38 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Thats what inspired the idea. Plus being a wing would help ease his transition to the pro game.
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Originally Posted by Rob Paxon View Post
I would say at this point you're definitely looking at the top 9 centers, in order, being Porter-Varone-Sundher. Sundher could pass him but Varone should definitely have the edge in current projections.

Girgensons on the wing makes the most sense right now as does playing him with Sundher. I've watched a bunch of Girgensons games since we drafted him and he definitely split his time between center and winger offensively and defensively. And his play there indicated that he's not necessarily any better or worse off at one than the other. He clearly has the game to be a LW power forward offensively. Being that he's 18 it makes sense to alleviate his responsibilities a bit by giving them to the more experienced (albeit fellow AHL rookie) Sundher.

I also like the idea of putting two talented, legitimate prospects together with a veteran and letting them work their way up. Those two should be a nice fit, at least until we can reunite Girg-Grig-Armia
A fair reason but, if you believe that there's no substantial difference between his performance at LW and C, then wouldn't it make sense to give him the more challenging assignment?

You could sell me on him playing wing with Porter or Ellis, and I like the pairing with Sundher idea, but between those two I think I'd like Sundher on the wing to start. IMO, it may even be better for Sundher. Personal opinion anyway.

I'm all for starting prospects in positions to succeed and letting them build up, but there has to be a lower limit and I think a 3rd line wing position is pretty close to that limit for him. IMO.

(note, combined comment to josh and rob)

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07-22-2012, 08:47 AM
  #58
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A fair reason but, if you believe that there's no substantial difference between his performance at LW and C, then wouldn't it make sense to give him the more challenging assignment?

You could sell me on him playing wing with Porter or Ellis, and I like the pairing with Sundher idea, but between those two I think I'd like Sundher on the wing to start. IMO, it may even be better for Sundher. Personal opinion anyway.

I'm all for starting prospects in positions to succeed and letting them build up, but there has to be a lower limit and I think a 3rd line wing position is pretty close to that limit for him. IMO.

(note, combined comment to josh and rob)
Fair points.

I just view Girgs and his physical edge better suited to the wing and Sundher and his playmaking better suited to center. I also see Girgs taking the bigger leap of the two (USHL to AHL -vs- WHL to AHL) and at a younger age.

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07-22-2012, 09:28 AM
  #59
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I'd rather Girgensons got top minutes playing with Porter and Mancari. Or Adam and Tropp. The better more experienced players he is with? The easier the transition. Keep his confidence up, and his game progressing.

Do they pair Pysyk and Mcnabb ?

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07-22-2012, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Ghost Dog View Post
I'd rather Girgensons got top minutes playing with Porter and Mancari. Or Adam and Tropp. The better more experienced players he is with? The easier the transition. Keep his confidence up, and his game progressing.

Do they pair Pysyk and Mcnabb ?


If he earned it fine. But you don't gift an 18 year old rookie those minutes.

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07-22-2012, 09:39 AM
  #61
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If he earned it fine. But you don't gift an 18 year old rookie those mintues.
It's about the long run for me. Just a philosophy as to developing him. It's not about this years Amerks for me at all. What is Girgensons ceiling and how do they get him there? That's what him being in Rochester is all about for me.

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07-22-2012, 09:57 AM
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Fair points.

I just view Girgs and his physical edge better suited to the wing and Sundher and his playmaking better suited to center. I also see Girgs taking the bigger leap of the two (USHL to AHL -vs- WHL to AHL) and at a younger age.
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If he earned it fine. But you don't gift an 18 year old rookie those minutes.
All true and it's certainly a challenge to try to put Girgensons in the best position for him but also Sundher, and Adam, and Varone etc. We saw with Adam last year a guy playing in a situation above his developmental curve and, in the end, it kinda blew that year. On the other side, however, Gaustad was the Amerks' 2nd line center his rookie year there, IIRC, and I always thought it benefited him tremendously. Delicate balance, obviously.

I haven't paid too much attention to lineups for Buffalo and Rochester yet but doing a quick lookover I... can see why sabresfan27 is probably pulling his hair out.

There are two scenarios that I think might work out for Rochester, both involve Buffalo carrying 13 forwards with Scott as the extra guy. The first involves Tropp and either Porter or Ellis going to Rochester which would give you something like Vanek-Hodgson-Poms, Foligno-Ennis-Stafford, Ott-Leino-Kaleta, Gerbe-Ellis/Porter-McCormick plus Scott. The other is McCormick centering the fourth line, Tropp making the team, and both Ellis and Porter going to Rochester. I'm not brave enough to defend a scenario where Foligno doesn't make the team.

If one of those two things happens it balances Rochester decently in their top 9 without, I think, affecting Buffalo that significantly but if only one of Ellis/Porter/Tropp is an Amerk, boy that looks tough to work with. I wonder if Colin Stuart would make a good fit with some Sundher/Girgensons combo.

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07-22-2012, 09:59 AM
  #63
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It's about the long run for me. Just a philosophy as to developing him. It's not about this years Amerks for me at all. What is Girgensons ceiling and how do they get him there? That's what him being in Rochester is all about for me.
He is still an 18 year AHL rookie. Something thats a rarity and on average usually doesn't work out. So I see zero point in forcing him into a top line role. He has plenty of years to develop into the player he is projected to be. If he earned his way up to those lines and was ready to handle that, then fine he plays there.

It seems like its about rushing him for you. A long view would realize it may take a year or two in the AHL before he is ready for an extended taste of the NHL.

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07-22-2012, 10:08 AM
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All true and it's certainly a challenge to try to put Girgensons in the best position for him but also Sundher, and Adam, and Varone etc. We saw with Adam last year a guy playing in a situation above his developmental curve and, in the end, it kinda blew that year. On the other side, however, Gaustad was the Amerks' 2nd line center his rookie year there, IIRC, and I always thought it benefited him tremendously. Delicate balance, obviously.

I haven't paid too much attention to lineups for Buffalo and Rochester yet but doing a quick lookover I... can see why sabresfan27 is probably pulling his hair out.

There are two scenarios that I think might work out for Rochester, both involve Buffalo carrying 13 forwards with Scott as the extra guy. The first involves Tropp and either Porter or Ellis going to Rochester which would give you something like Vanek-Hodgson-Poms, Foligno-Ennis-Stafford, Ott-Leino-Kaleta, Gerbe-Ellis/Porter-McCormick plus Scott. The other is McCormick centering the fourth line, Tropp making the team, and both Ellis and Porter going to Rochester. I'm not brave enough to defend a scenario where Foligno doesn't make the team.

If one of those two things happens it balances Rochester decently in their top 9 without, I think, affecting Buffalo that significantly but if only one of Ellis/Porter/Tropp is an Amerk, boy that looks tough to work with. I wonder if Colin Stuart would make a good fit with some Sundher/Girgensons combo.
I think the best case scenario for Rochester is if we add another top 9 forward without giving one up.

Ott/Leino/Pommer
Foligno/Ennis/Stafford
New player/Hodgson/Vanek
Gerbe/McCormick or Ellis/Kaleta
Scott

That would mean Porter, Tropp and Adam are in Rochester and maybe even one of Ellis/McCormick.


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07-22-2012, 10:20 AM
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All true and it's certainly a challenge to try to put Girgensons in the best position for him but also Sundher, and Adam, and Varone etc. We saw with Adam last year a guy playing in a situation above his developmental curve and, in the end, it kinda blew that year. On the other side, however, Gaustad was the Amerks' 2nd line center his rookie year there, IIRC, and I always thought it benefited him tremendously. Delicate balance, obviously.
Just caught the bolded rereading your post


Goose was also two years older and coming off two season in the WHL which is a tougher league than the USHL.

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07-22-2012, 10:28 AM
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He is still an 18 year AHL rookie. Something thats a rarity and on average usually doesn't work out. So I see zero point in forcing him into a top line role. He has plenty of years to develop into the player he is projected to be. If he earned his way up to those lines and was ready to handle that, then fine he plays there.

It seems like its about rushing him for you. A long view would realize it may take a year or two in the AHL before he is ready for an extended taste of the NHL.
To take a contrarian point of view, what do you do if he shows in NHL and AHL training camp that he is clearly one of the 6 best forwards on the Amerks? Do you still start him in a lesser role or do you see if he can hold up to the challenge once the season starts?

I would suggest that they aren't taking a long-term view with Girgensons. I make that fairly cockamamie suggestion that they are planning for him to contribute in Buffalo this year, which is extreme but I'm not sure it's that far off. Sending an 18 year old from the USHL to the AHL is a bold move and IMO, doesn't jive with the idea that they expect him to spend upwards of two years in the AHL. Based on what we know about Girgensons' abilities and personality, and their handling of him so far, I believe he's on a fast track. IMO, if he isn't a regular NHL player by around Jan 1, 2014, I would be pretty surprised. If he ends up in the WHL this year, I reserve the right to change that opinion.


I've somewhat hijacked this into a Girgensons thread. Sorry.


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I think the best case scenario for Rochester is if we add another top 9 forward without giving one up.
This I certainly agree with.

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07-22-2012, 10:32 AM
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To take a contrarian point of view, what do you do if he shows in NHL and AHL training camp that he is clearly one of the 6 best forwards on the Amerks? Do you still start him in a lesser role or do you see if he can hold up to the challenge once the season starts?

I would suggest that they aren't taking a long-term view with Girgensons. I make that fairly cockamamie suggestion that they are planning for him to contribute in Buffalo this year, which is extreme but I'm not sure it's that far off. Sending an 18 year old from the USHL to the AHL is a bold move and IMO, doesn't jive with the idea that they expect him to spend upwards of two years in the AHL. Based on what we know about Girgensons' abilities and personality, and their handling of him so far, I believe he's on a fast track. IMO, if he isn't a regular NHL player by around Jan 1, 2014, I would be pretty surprised. If he ends up in the WHL this year, I reserve the right to change that opinion.


I've somewhat hijacked this into a Girgensons thread. Sorry.




This I certainly agree with.
If he shows his ready in camp as one of the top 6 then he gets a shot there.


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07-22-2012, 10:37 AM
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Just caught the bolded rereading your post


Goose was also two years older and coming off two season in the WHL which is a tougher league than the USHL.

Yes, but I don't think he was ever envisioned by the organization to be more than a bottom six player so he was getting situations and minutes that they hadn't planned on him ultimately being a top six player and I believe he sent the rest of his Rochester time in mostly a 3rd line role. (a quick look shows something like Taylor and Gaustad his first year, Pittis, Taylor/Roy and Gaustad his second, and Taylor, Roy and Gaustad his final year, the lockout. I may be wrong though).

Anyway, back to my point which was ultimately that they did give him the challenge during his development. Since I think we all expect Girgensons to be a top six player in Buffalo, if he can show that ability early, there's plenty of logic to trying him out in the top six. However, I certainly don't think he should be presumed to a top six role.

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07-22-2012, 10:41 AM
  #69
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If Girgensons shows well in camp, just like any other player, he'd be earning the ice time. Playing him just to play him doesn't reward a player for effort, nor does it help anything in the dress room. Rolston preaches about effort leading to opportunity. If Girgensons is putting in the effort and performing, he'll earn his ice time. If not, not.

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07-22-2012, 11:41 AM
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Yes, but I don't think he was ever envisioned by the organization to be more than a bottom six player so he was getting situations and minutes that they hadn't planned on him ultimately being a top six player and I believe he sent the rest of his Rochester time in mostly a 3rd line role. (a quick look shows something like Taylor and Gaustad his first year, Pittis, Taylor/Roy and Gaustad his second, and Taylor, Roy and Gaustad his final year, the lockout. I may be wrong though).

Anyway, back to my point which was ultimately that they did give him the challenge during his development. Since I think we all expect Girgensons to be a top six player in Buffalo, if he can show that ability early, there's plenty of logic to trying him out in the top six. However, I certainly don't think he should be presumed to a top six role.

I've already agreed that if he shows in camp he is ready for a shot in the top 6 then give him one. Isn't that what you're saying? I'm not even sure what you're disagreeing with at this point. I don't think our stances are all that far apart.

Btw why not the same mentality with Sundher? Wouldn't the same arguement you made about Goose apply to him as well?


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07-22-2012, 12:18 PM
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I've already agreed that if he shows in camp he is ready for a shot in the top 6 then give him one. Isn't that what you're saying? I'm not even sure what you're disagreeing with at this point.
A couple time your post went up while I was writing mine. Timing issue, nothing more. Elbows down.

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Btw why not the same mentality with Sundher? Wouldn't the same arguement you made about Goose apply to him as well?
Sure, of course. Doesn't Sundher need to fill out his body, though, in a way that Girgensons doesn't? I'm assuming the physical transition is going to be more impactful for him, but the competition/speed jump may not be as big an issue. There are plenty of people who think Girgensons is ready for the pros and a lot of that is based on his physique, desire and skill level at his age. That's not to diminish Sundher but it is also why I assumed him at LW in that pair a dozen posts ago. Most of it relates to two having two skilled prospects, but the younger has the more pro-ready body.

Obviously everything I've said pertaining to Girgensons applies to Sundher as well and I certainly have no problem pushing him up the ladder along with, or in lieu of, Girgensons if he ultimately adapts to the pros quicker.From a practical standpoint, there will probably be enough top 6 jobs open in Rochester whenever either is ready for one. [EDIT: example. I might prefer Sundher on a wing with Varone if it keeps Girgensons at center on a 3rd line.]

Guys like Sundher, slight-ish speed/skill players, I usually give a couple years to adjust to the competition level but if he's ready earlier, why would I complain? However Girgensons is also a priority prospect. Hopefully Sundher can develop into an NHL player. They need Girgensons to.


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07-22-2012, 12:34 PM
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A couple time your post went up while I was writing mine. Timing issue, nothing more. Elbows down.
I was just confused. No elbow throwing from me

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Sure, of course. Doesn't Sundher need to fill out his body, though, in a way that Girgensons doesn't? I'm assuming the physical transition is going to be more impactful for him, but the competition/speed jump may not be as big an issue. There are plenty of people who think Girgensons is ready for the pros and a lot of that is based on his physique, desire and skill level at his age. That's not to diminish Sundher but it is also why I assumed him at LW in that pair a dozen posts ago. Most of it relates to two having two skilled prospects, but the younger has the more pro-ready body.
Not sure how much Sundher has to fill out. I've seen him listed as heavy as 192lbs and as light as his draft weight of 177lbs. At 6' tall if he weighs 192lbs he doens;t have that much filling out to do but I:m sure he can use and improvement in his strength.

As a side note, why don't the Sabres update their propect profiles on Sabres.com. They don't even have Sundher's 11-12 season stats listed in his profile.

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Obviously everything I've said pertaining to Girgensons applies to Sundher as well and I certainly have no problem pushing him up the ladder along with, or in lieu of, Girgensons if he ultimately adapts to the pros quicker.From a practical standpoint, there will probably be enough top 6 jobs open in Rochester whenever either is ready for one.
I actually viewed them pushing those ahead of them together and possibly jumping up as a line as the season progressed. As opposed to an either or situation.

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Guys like Sundher, slight-ish speed/skill players, I usually give a couple years to adjust to the competition level but if he's ready earlier, why would I complain? However Girgensons is also a priority prospect. Hopefully Sundher can develop into an NHL player. They need Girgensons to
I think this is the overriding influence on your take on this. You feel they are counting on him to matter almost immediately and need him to do so. You've mentioned it a few times in the past. I just don't see it the same way.

Also Sundher isn't small or slight, at worst you could say he is average.

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07-22-2012, 12:37 PM
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If Sundher or Girgensons can displace Varone or Porter, that would be impressive and likely shuffle them up toward the top of the recall list pretty quickly.

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07-22-2012, 01:10 PM
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I was just confused. No elbow throwing from me
Eh, I'm at fault for getting into this while trying to do a half dozen other things too (half of which are at the same progress point as they were this morning).



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Not sure how much Sundher has to fill out. I've seen him listed as heavy as 192lbs and as light as his draft weight of 177lbs. At 6' tall if he weighs 192lbs he doens;t have that much filling out to do but I:m sure he can use and improvement in his strength.

As a side note, why don't the Sabres update their propect profiles on Sabres.com. They don't even have Sundher's 11-12 season stats listed in his profile.
Fair enough. Most of the development camp comments seemed to be related to his speed and his play in tight areas. If his size was mentioned I missed it so I've been under the impression he's still fairly slight. If he's really over 190, that is certainly a perspective-changer. I also started voting for him at #4 in the last prospect poll so I'm not exactly an anti-Sundher guy here.

And how long did this organization list Vasili Bizyayev in the prospects section? Hopefully it gets updated in training camp

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I actually viewed them pushing those ahead of them together and possibly jumping up as a line as the season progressed. As opposed to an either or situation.
Sure, also a possibility and I, vaguely, mentioned this with my comment about the lineup scenarios and the potential for multiple top 6 jobs open.


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I think this is the overriding influence on your take on this. You feel they are counting on him to matter almost immediately and need him to do so. You've mentioned it a few times in the past. I just don't see it the same way.

Also Sundher isn't small or slight, at worst you could say he is average.
Sure, I admit I'm not a fan of ticketing him for Rochester at his age and I'm struggling to understand it. The best explanation I've come up with myself is that he's on a fast track. We won't know the answer to that for a little while but as I've said, sending a USHL player straight to pros is a bold move and, to me, can only elicit a bold explanation which is they want him on the Sabres as soon as is reasonably possible. Though, I guess wanting him to play his teen years in the AHL is a bold explanation too.

If he starts as the 3rd line C and PKer, elevates to a top 6 and PP role at some point during the season that's more than acceptable by me. But since I would've preferred a more conservative track for him, I'm opening my mind to every possibility that can occur.

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07-24-2012, 08:43 AM
  #75
sabrefan27
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Rochester Americans ‏@AmerksHockey
Headed over to Frontier Field later this morning to announce a new special event w/ Maggie Brooks and @RocRedWings Dan Mason. Stay tuned...


Wonder if they're announcing an outdoor game this season.

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