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Old
07-21-2012, 09:18 AM
  #26
CanadianHockey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PKC View Post
My first post outlined the kind of players you could acquire right now with an RFA offer sheet. You're telling me it would be a huge waste of time to acquire Jamie Benn or Evander Kane on a 5 year contract with an AAV no higher than $6.7 million?
Yes. Their teams would match, and/or the player would decline (wants more term).

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07-21-2012, 09:26 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by PKC View Post
My first post outlined the kind of players you could acquire right now with an RFA offer sheet. You're telling me it would be a huge waste of time to acquire Jamie Benn or Evander Kane on a 5 year contract with an AAV no higher than $6.7 million?
THEIR TEAMS WOULD MATCH!!!!

The only time they are going to let a player of that caliber just leave is if another team is offering such a ridiculous amount more than market value that it would make no financial sense to do it.

And if they are having financial difficulties and knew they wouldn't be able to sign these players, they would have been exploring trading them a long time ago.

Do you think that if Karlsson had made it to July 1st and a team had convinced him to sign an offer sheet that the Sens would even blink before matching?

I have no idea why you think that just because these players are RFA's that an offer sheet is the way to acquire them.

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07-21-2012, 10:33 AM
  #28
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Offer sheets are bad for the overall health of the league. The idea of them are to overpay players to poach them from vulnerable teams. In theory, the idea is that vulnerability is a result of being too close to the cap but in reality its vulnerable small market teams that can't compete with the dollars involved with ludacris front loaded deals. The result is that players get more than market value and set new comparables for future RFAs, hence the driving up of prices. See: Dustin Penner, Kevin Lowe.

While its legal, I don't think its moral. What Holmgren did was devastating not only to Nashville and their future, but the league. It hurts the current CBA negotiations, small markets and perhaps is the begining of the end for Nashville, a franchise that was in danger of relocation not so long ago. Can the NHL really afford another Phoenix?

GMs have to show some kind of responsibility and acknowledge the fact that we'd like there to be a 'next year' instead of demonstrating the foresight of American banks.


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07-21-2012, 10:36 AM
  #29
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I wonder if Poile is thinking about renting a barn for him and Holmgren to throw down in.

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07-21-2012, 01:07 PM
  #30
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What if you are making an offer in the summer to a ufa, but he accepts a better offer from another team? Is that immoral?

What if you had 3rd overall draft pick, and knowing the 2 teams ahead of you were going to pick forwards, you knew and made plans for getting the top dman. But the 4th overall picking team traded with the 2nd overall team for their draft pick and drafted the dman you wanted. Is that immoral? Perhaps in a league run by grandma’s for their 5 yr old grandchildren where you are trying to ensure everyone plays nice, has fun, and is classy. But man, get out of that hot tub time machine fantasy tub and jump into the cold water reality pool here.

In the previous cba, offer sheets were, in the end, self defeating for GM’s. It just drove up all their costs needlessly. There was no gentleman’s agreement not to do them; there was a common self interest realization.

When the owners had total control over creating the current cba, they actually lowered the top threshold for rfa offer sheets to make them easier - it used to be five 1st rounders.

Now, there is no such inflationary effect on salaries - there is revenue linked, escrow backed, cost certainty along with a triple salary cap. It cant happen. All you can do is redistribute within the player ranks, which players get the most money. There should be no stigma over rfa offer sheets anymore - we have a triple cap, revenue sharing, and cost certainty. If they bother you then don’t make them, just point out the lack of class and morals of those winning teams that do make them if it helps.


Many fans also incorrectly feel that arbitration or Kevin Lowe’s infamous offer sheet was inflationary, because they see players on cheap salaries going into it, and coming out with higher salaries. And even higher salaries still during this cba. But it isn’t the arbitration that is inflationary, in fact arbitration is the exact opposite - it’s stabilizing. Rather it’s the players closeness to ufa age that is inflationary and giving them the leverage. And in this cba, that ufa age is closer than ever. In fact I believe, if we had forced every rfa in the previous uncapped cba into arbitration rather than allowing offer sheets then, we might have had the most fair system possible by game theory standards.

In the last cba we railed against Feaster in Tampa for offering Brad Richards $2.5 mil on his 2nd contract cause we were trying to hardball Havlat in his 4th year into taking a $1.2 mil salary, an amount lower than the rookie cap at the time. And Havlat had to hold out just to get $1.6.

Now there are no more holdouts. There is no more hard-balling of rfa's and much less need for players to go to arbitration. And when Mesz does try forcing it, the return is dictated by the RFA offer sheet compensation schedule. That is the most you will ever get for a player in trade, unless you are Toronto and are missing one of your own draft picks needed in order to make the offer sheet, and then in that case, you might have to pay a slight premium in trade.

And that also gave Burke the opportunity to say he’s not a hypocrite after all his rants about the evil offer sheets from Edm, since he didn’t make an offer sheet - he made a trade. Amazingly, many non leaf fans actually also buy that reasoning - go figure.

Now, every 2nd contract immediately looks at the rfa offer sheet compensation schedule and decides what their players are worth based on it. Edmonton, notorious cheap skate hardballer gives Gagner $3.2. Would you rather have him at that for 1 year or take a 2nd rounder. Obviously they sign him since they arent pressed to the cap ceiling. Otherwise, as with Vermette, you trade him when his trade value is highest - and that is as an rfa. And the highest draft pick return possible is what the rfa offer compensation schedule outlines. It establishes trade values and signing costs for every rfa in the league.


So to say then, that there has only been 1 offer sheet every year of this cba so they aren’t important, completely misses the point. They are totally dictating the value and leverage of every single rfa contract.


I think the first offer sheet was in the first year of this cba to Gionta in NJ, but the Devils players have sold their soul to Lou, and Gionta was told by Lou to wait while he does something to get under the cap, because at the time he was cap pressed and wouldn’t have been able to match an rfa sheet until he figured out how to get a tough contract off the books, Malakhov and McGillis I think. And so Gionta didn’t sign the offer sheet, waited until the Devils got under the cap, and then signed a fair contract.

But that is one of those great opportunities for using an rfa sheet - when a team has backed itself into corner under the salary cap rules with its contracts and cant match. And the other one is when a team is hard-balling or undervaluing a player that you think is worth more and are willing to make that trade as outlined by the terms in the rfa offer sheet compensation schedule.

RFA offer sheets are not bad for the overall health of the league, in fact the threat of them are necessary to keep things fair. When you have created a system that trys to financially equalize the salaries paid to players thinking that will be an acceptable proxy for allowing us to manufacture perfect fairness for a system, then it is very important that all players are paid fairly relative to their worth, otherwise, if every team paid every player fairly, except us who got all our players to take cap circumventing home team discounts, then we would be cheating the fairness. Having all players paid what they are worth helps keep parity.

RFA offer sheets are not meant for overpaying players. Which offer sheet we saw made is an overpayment? In real terms, not in “I wish Murray could have got a 2nd rounder for Lee” kind of unfairness.

And no way will an offer sheet for Benn or Kane not be matched. They arent the players offer sheets are meant for. Although their salaries are a lot higher now because of them than in the last cba.

And note - Nashville is considering matching this! It’s not like they can’t afford it in real life, only in fake cba propaganda life.

I think what we actually need is some sort of league initiated arbitration forced upon a team when they seem to have gotten too good of a deal on a player, too much of a home team discount, and are therefore circumventing the “spirit of the cap“.

Part of the current problem with the recent lessening of league parity from the ideal imagined when embarking down this yellow brick salary cap road, is that there is no longer the fantasy of 30 equal teams all who think they have a shot at the Cup every year. Partly because the top players have not acted greedily enough, in their self interest to maximize their salary cap hits and salaries. They have simply looked for a fair amount that would allow them to be surrounded by other good players. Crosby for example signing for cheap should be considered circumventing the cap imo, its not fair to parity if he is not being paid the maximum salary a player can get.

Warning: too much coffee leads to rambling.

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Old
07-21-2012, 01:26 PM
  #31
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^Dude I can't even read that, no patience. Way too long. You're awesome though.

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07-21-2012, 01:31 PM
  #32
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With all the crap going on with the CBA, if I was a player I would sign an offer sheet that consisted mainly of SB and was front loaded. Might as well get paid even if you have to play in Finland for a season.

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07-21-2012, 04:24 PM
  #33
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Its something that all GM's should take a serious look at.

Id look at offering Jamie Benn 80 million over 12 years 6.66 cap hit.That would bring him until he is 35 years old. He is on the verge of becoming a super star if he was in a bigger market he would get way more exposure, he is already better than or equal to Rich Nash. Can play center and wing, power player extreme size and skill. He just keeps getting better.


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07-21-2012, 04:36 PM
  #34
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Its something that all GM's should take a serious look at.

Id look at offering Jamie Benn 80 million over 12 years 6.66 cap hit.That would bring him until he is 35 years old. He is on the verge of becoming a super star if he was in a bigger market he would get way more exposure, he is already better than or equal to Rich Nash. Can play center and wing, power player extreme size and skill. He just keeps getting better.
Are you ready to give up 4 1st rounders though? Dallas also matches.

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07-21-2012, 05:21 PM
  #35
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this drives me insane, honestly it ****s everyone in the long wrong, so say we put that offer in on benn, is he worth that money, yes, but dallas can get him im sure at 5 or 5.5, now hes making a million more then what he would have and it just drives up the next rfas contract, because if benn gets 6.6 kane wants 6, it kick starts the time frame of when players get paid i think. philly does it because their owner doesnt want a cap, so hes just saying screw it if it raises salarys a bit, what do i care. mean while 23 teams in league cant afford that, imagine philly did that to karlsson, we obviously match, but one it screws us and then the next 10 rfa d men say o karlsson got 8 i should get 6 by that theory

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07-21-2012, 05:30 PM
  #36
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this drives me insane, honestly it ****s everyone in the long wrong, so say we put that offer in on benn, is he worth that money, yes, but dallas can get him im sure at 5 or 5.5, now hes making a million more then what he would have and it just drives up the next rfas contract, because if benn gets 6.6 kane wants 6, it kick starts the time frame of when players get paid i think. philly does it because their owner doesnt want a cap, so hes just saying screw it if it raises salarys a bit, what do i care. mean while 23 teams in league cant afford that, imagine philly did that to karlsson, we obviously match, but one it screws us and then the next 10 rfa d men say o karlsson got 8 i should get 6 by that theory
This is so offbase. We have precedent for large multiyear, multimillion dollar offer sheets. We've seen it happen and we've seen the follow up to those situations immediately after they happen and then at 1, 2 and 3 year intervals.

Did the Thomas Vanek offer sheet suddenly raise the cost of every single RFA winger in the league? This whole idea that there's some kind of waterfall effect is ridiculous. Yes, players are used as comparisons in negotiations for new contracts. But that's where it ends.

The Weber offer sheet is reckless not because of the money he's getting, but how he's getting it. This mega front-loaded mega bonus laden deal is what has people talking about how ridiculous it is. Not the fact that he got 14 years, $110 million.

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07-21-2012, 05:40 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by CanadianHockey View Post
Yes. Their teams would match, and/or the player would decline (wants more term).
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Originally Posted by DefenseMinister View Post
THEIR TEAMS WOULD MATCH!!!!

The only time they are going to let a player of that caliber just leave is if another team is offering such a ridiculous amount more than market value that it would make no financial sense to do it.

And if they are having financial difficulties and knew they wouldn't be able to sign these players, they would have been exploring trading them a long time ago.

Do you think that if Karlsson had made it to July 1st and a team had convinced him to sign an offer sheet that the Sens would even blink before matching?

I have no idea why you think that just because these players are RFA's that an offer sheet is the way to acquire them.
I like how you guys somehow know, with 150% certainty, that their teams would match. You know what? Bump it up. I'd go up to $7.5 million AAV to land these guys. They're both going to be superstars. Why not? By the time they're contract is done, they're going to be average value contracts for elite upper tier forwards.

The point still remains. RFA offer sheets are underutilized as a tool to improve your team.

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07-21-2012, 05:42 PM
  #38
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Pietrangelo would be asking for more if karlsson got more, say EK got 7.5 do you not thnk pietrangelo would try and get 7.5 , but now hes trying for 6.5. an when AP gets 6.5 or just under thats the number OEL is going to look at, im not saying all these players are even but thats who they are going to look at, yes it might not affect on a big scale but still makes teams pay a million a year more and maybe even higher

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07-21-2012, 05:52 PM
  #39
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Pietrangelo would be asking for more if karlsson got more, say EK got 7.5 do you not thnk pietrangelo would try and get 7.5 , but now hes trying for 6.5. an when AP gets 6.5 or just under thats the number OEL is going to look at, im not saying all these players are even but thats who they are going to look at, yes it might not affect on a big scale but still makes teams pay a million a year more and maybe even higher
If AP scores 78 points next year and wins the Norris, he should have an argument to get paid like EK. Whether EK had been offer sheeted or not.

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07-21-2012, 06:13 PM
  #40
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yes so lets say he has a good year and goes to the blues i want 6.5 (really wanting 6)because karlsson got that, if karlsson was signed to offer sheet (weather matched or not) to 7.5, the AP is going to say i want 7.5 (really wanting 7) because karlsson got it

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07-21-2012, 06:38 PM
  #41
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I like how you guys somehow know, with 150% certainty, that their teams would match. You know what? Bump it up. I'd go up to $7.5 million AAV to land these guys. They're both going to be superstars. Why not? By the time they're contract is done, they're going to be average value contracts for elite upper tier forwards.

The point still remains. RFA offer sheets are underutilized as a tool to improve your team.
If they are the impending superstars you think they are, then any value you are comfortable paying them is something that Dallas would be as well.

Would the Sens hesitate in matching any possible offer that Karlsson would have received through an RFA offer sheet if they had let him get past July 1st?

If you are so hellbent in getting them, then pick up the phone and work out a trade and then sign him to whatever contract you feel he's worth. You are guaranteed to acquire the player in this scenario. When using an offer sheet, you will never be certain of what contract amount and term will be the one that the original team will not be willing to match.

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07-21-2012, 09:07 PM
  #42
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If they are the impending superstars you think they are, then any value you are comfortable paying them is something that Dallas would be as well.

Would the Sens hesitate in matching any possible offer that Karlsson would have received through an RFA offer sheet if they had let him get past July 1st?

If you are so hellbent in getting them, then pick up the phone and work out a trade and then sign him to whatever contract you feel he's worth. You are guaranteed to acquire the player in this scenario. When using an offer sheet, you will never be certain of what contract amount and term will be the one that the original team will not be willing to match.
I wouldn't be so sure of that. They have an exceptional amount of free agents up for new contracts next year, including their starting goalie. Locking up one guy is great, but where do they get the money to lock up everyone else? A serious decision will have to be made. You think Jamie Benn is worth more to Dallas than Shea Weber is to Nashville? The fact that Nashville didn't issue a press release 5 seconds after the offer sheet was announced shows you what kind of consideration these offer sheets merit.

The point is, you never know how teams value specific players. Do the majority of people believe Ville Leino is overpaid and undeserving of his contract? Yes. Do the Buffalo Sabres believe they signed him to a contract that pays him a value equal to the services he will render? Yes.

Maybe Jamie Benn is only worth $5 million per season to Dallas rather than the $7 million he might be worth to Ottawa. Does that mean Benn is worth either of those figures? In the minds of those respective organizations, yes.

The fact that you keep speaking in such absolutes, especially in a hypothetical situation, is ridiculous. You don't know, anymore than I do, what a team would do if their RFA was offer sheeted.

I think Ottawa, who have drafted so beautifully over the last 4 years, are in a prime position to offer sheet someone and risk the draft picks. Especially if that player is very young (Benn, Kane), poised to be a superstar and fills an organizational need.

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07-21-2012, 09:11 PM
  #43
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yes so lets say he has a good year and goes to the blues i want 6.5 (really wanting 6)because karlsson got that, if karlsson was signed to offer sheet (weather matched or not) to 7.5, the AP is going to say i want 7.5 (really wanting 7) because karlsson got it
Well if AP has the type of season Erik had and wins the Norris trophy, why shouldn't he be allowed to ask for Erik Karlsson money? Whether that figure be the one the Sens agreed on or one that was obtained by offer sheet? If he doesn't have that great of a season, then why should he be allowed to ask for Erik Karlsson money? That's my point.

Offer sheets don't create comparables in the market anymore than bad UFA contracts do.

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07-21-2012, 10:52 PM
  #44
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The point is, you never know how teams value specific players. Do the majority of people believe Ville Leino is overpaid and undeserving of his contract? Yes. Do the Buffalo Sabres believe they signed him to a contract that pays him a value equal to the services he will render? Yes.
I can hazard a decent guess that the Sabres didn't think Ville Leino was worth the contract they gave him, they just believed that this was the amount of money it was going to take for his original team to think it was a crazy contract and it wasn't worth the effort to sign a middling player. Probably the exact same thinking the Ducks had when allowing Penner to go to the Oilers. And in both cases, the original team was right and the team having to ridiculously overpay was proven to have made a stupid decision.

Every other offer sheet that has a contract amount that is in the realm of the realistic, the original team has matched. Even most cases where it is stupid money that teams know will create an albatross contract, they still match, mostly out of spite.

The reason that Nashville has to think about matching Weber is not because of the cap hit, the term or the salary, it's about the absolutely ridiculous signing bonuses being given out in the first few years that only 4-5 owners in this league could afford to pay out in that short amount of time. But you know what? Even though that signing bonus structure is so completely ridiculous, Nashville's probably still going to end up matching even though they don't really have the money. Because it's Weber and they don't want to lose him.

The reason that offer sheets don't happen is because they don't produce a certain result and 90% of the time, they produce a negative result for the team making the attempt to acquire the player. If it's a choice between taking this risk or simply picking up the phone to work out a trade for the player which guarantees you actually end up with him, I'll take the latter option. And so do most teams in the league.

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07-22-2012, 12:34 AM
  #45
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F... That, Ottawa should of offer sheeted Weber. I know it's dirty and we have a good relationship with Nashville. But business is business

Trade gonchar for peanuts, thats 5.5M off the books and sign Mr Weber for 7.8... I think Melneyk would of accepted dishing out a front loaded contract for this guy.

Imagine a defence with:

Weber - Karlsson
Cowen - Methot
Philips - BoroCop

Everyone would be intimidated by this... Ottawa has enough young guns in the system to give up on 4 picks which will most likely be 20th overall if not higher. Brian Murray, are you listening !!!

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07-22-2012, 01:06 AM
  #46
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F... That, Ottawa should of offer sheeted Weber. I know it's dirty and we have a good relationship with Nashville. But business is business

Trade gonchar for peanuts, thats 5.5M off the books and sign Mr Weber for 7.8... I think Melneyk would of accepted dishing out a front loaded contract for this guy.
Gonchars NMC makes that a little difficult.


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Imagine a defence with:

Weber - Karlsson
Cowen - Methot
Philips - BoroCop
Weber plays the same side as EK

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Originally Posted by PablitoArg View Post
Everyone would be intimidated by this... Ottawa has enough young guns in the system to give up on 4 picks which will most likely be 20th overall if not higher. Brian Murray, are you listening !!!
Probably not. He answers to Bryan.

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07-22-2012, 02:04 AM
  #47
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Steve Bernier was offer sheeted (?) by St.Louis because they were pissed at Vancouver for offer sheeting (?) David Backes.
Because the Weber to Philly offer sheet was handled correctly(Weber telling Nashville he's signing with Philly, so try and make a trade) Nashville won't sign one of Philly's RFA's because they're pissed. Make sense?

Edit: I think I made up words

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07-22-2012, 06:30 AM
  #48
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Gonchars NMC makes that a little difficult.

Weber plays the same side as EK

Probably not. He answers to Bryan.
I'm sure gonchar would waive it, even if he doesn't, he's off the books next year. We have a ton of cap space.
Doesn't weber play on the left side? my bad if so .. anyways, does it really matter if he plays on the same side, he just won't play with EK even strengh

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07-22-2012, 11:51 AM
  #49
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Are you ready to give up 4 1st rounders though? Dallas also matches.
Maybe you should read the first post. That would be a 1st 2nd and a 3rd. How do you know Dallas can afford to make a financial commitment to a player like that? His market value is around 4.85 right now. Thats a very long term deal, why not explore something like that?

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07-22-2012, 11:55 AM
  #50
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Maybe you should read the first post. That would be a 1st 2nd and a 3rd. How do you know Dallas can afford to make a financial commitment to a player like that? His market value is around 4.85 right now. Thats a very long term deal, why not explore something like that?
? You're wrong, plain and simple


As for Dallas matching, Benn is their franchise player, I think Dallas has a new rich owner and their fans have said the team will definitely match anything that is 10M a year and under (as in front loaded).

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