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Chicago Blackhawks Quest For The Cup

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Old
07-21-2012, 08:03 PM
  #26
hockeydoug
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadhouseOnMadison View Post
Scotty Bowman didn't take Florida to the playoffs for the first time in over a decade and got them just as far in the playoffs as Stan did with a much more talented Hawks team.

I think it's hard to argue that Dale isn't a much better GM than Stan and regardless of what Scotty's contributions were back when Dale was still a part of the organization we're actively seeing him turn around another bottom feeding team in a short amount of time.
Let's give Dale and Stan a couple more years. Comparing the first 3 years of Dale's work as a gm and Stan's work as a gm will take a little longer too, but it looks like Stan has the edge to date. Right now, only comparing the two head to head, I think Stan had the better 2011 but Tallon had an excellent 2012.

Moving forward, Dale gets to see if he can improve on extensions the next 2 years and Stan actually has a roster that has his name on almost every contract so we can really see if his plan is working or failing. If the Hawks don't win the cup again (like each of the last 9 cup winning teams), it'll make for some more fun June/July/August conversations comparing the two.

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07-22-2012, 02:32 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by madgoat33 View Post
do any of you think tallon could have done any better a job managing the horrible cap situation he put the hawks in? Especially while making the playoffs every year and maintaining a good pipeline.
yes.

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07-22-2012, 02:33 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by hockeydoug View Post
Let's give Dale and Stan a couple more years. Comparing the first 3 years of Dale's work as a gm and Stan's work as a gm will take a little longer too, but it looks like Stan has the edge to date. Right now, only comparing the two head to head, I think Stan had the better 2011 but Tallon had an excellent 2012.

Moving forward, Dale gets to see if he can improve on extensions the next 2 years and Stan actually has a roster that has his name on almost every contract so we can really see if his plan is working or failing. If the Hawks don't win the cup again (like each of the last 9 cup winning teams), it'll make for some more fun June/July/August conversations comparing the two.
You can't compare Dales first 3 years in Chicago to Stan's.

Dale took over a last place team. Stan took over a team that won the Stanley Cup.

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07-22-2012, 02:39 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Rexy View Post
yes.
so the guy who couldn't even get out QO's and was horrible at drafting was going to steer us through cap hell while making the playoffs and maintaining a very good prospect pool?

Color me skeptical.

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07-22-2012, 02:42 AM
  #30
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It would have been nearly impossible to not have a top prospect system with all that had to be sold off.

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07-22-2012, 03:53 AM
  #31
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Tallon would have traded Buff for a Skille type of player...


Tallon never was in a position to manage the Cap or need to worry about the Cap Hits and Cap Limit. With the Hawks, he could spend money on everybody he wanted for whatever it takes. Last year, I could have been the GM and signed those good players to that (overpaid) contracts.

Waiving Grabner and lose him for nothing was a really brilliant move

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07-22-2012, 05:45 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madgoat33 View Post
so the guy who couldn't even get out QO's and was horrible at drafting was going to steer us through cap hell while making the playoffs and maintaining a very good prospect pool?

Color me skeptical.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba88 View Post
Tallon would have traded Buff for a Skille type of player...


Tallon never was in a position to manage the Cap or need to worry about the Cap Hits and Cap Limit. With the Hawks, he could spend money on everybody he wanted for whatever it takes. Last year, I could have been the GM and signed those good players to that (overpaid) contracts.

Waiving Grabner and lose him for nothing was a really brilliant move
Aren't you the same people that say all Dale was good at was trading? Now you don't think he could have gotten something in return for the players that had to be traded?

Guarantee he gets more than a second round pick for Ladd.
Guarantee he gets more for Buff, Sopel, Eager and Aliu than Morin.

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07-22-2012, 08:12 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Rexy View Post
Aren't you the same people that say all Dale was good at was trading? Now you don't think he could have gotten something in return for the players that had to be traded?

Guarantee he gets more than a second round pick for Ladd.
Guarantee he gets more for Buff, Sopel, Eager and Aliu than Morin.
They weren't just trading those players, they had to trade them and take on almost no salary. They had to waive Reasnor because they couldn't afford him.

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07-22-2012, 08:38 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Rexy View Post
Aren't you the same people that say all Dale was good at was trading? Now you don't think he could have gotten something in return for the players that had to be traded?

Guarantee he gets more than a second round pick for Ladd.
Guarantee he gets more for Buff, Sopel, Eager and Aliu than Morin.
nope, i never said that.

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07-22-2012, 10:11 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexy View Post
Aren't you the same people that say all Dale was good at was trading? Now you don't think he could have gotten something in return for the players that had to be traded?

Guarantee he gets more than a second round pick for Ladd.
Guarantee he gets more for Buff, Sopel, Eager and Aliu than Morin.
Ladd for B Level prospect + 2nd was more than fair value.
Buff + Cap Dumps/scraps for Morin + Holl + Kayes was fair value.


you really need to learn more about the business part of hockey. All knew that we had no chance keeping those players and neeed to sell. Getting those players without taking Salary back - other than Reasoner who we wanted to add for C depth and still couldn't afford to keep - was more than fair for both sides.

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07-22-2012, 10:30 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Rexy View Post
You can't compare Dales first 3 years in Chicago to Stan's.

Dale took over a last place team. Stan took over a team that won the Stanley Cup.
Tallon and Bowman had many different strengths and weaknesses to work with and I'm sure both would prefer some of what the other had. It's tough to compare each individual category of a gm's responsibility, but I think people can compare entire bodies of work in a full context. A couple more years will give us a better picture.

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07-22-2012, 10:52 AM
  #37
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I love how people try and bring up the Hossa/Havlat argument like it would have impacted the team winning a Cup and discounting Tallon for it.

With either of those guys (healthy) the team wins the Cup. Hell I'd almost even say they were good enough without either to win the Cup.

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07-22-2012, 03:21 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba88 View Post
Ladd for B Level prospect + 2nd was more than fair value.
Buff + Cap Dumps/scraps for Morin + Holl + Kayes was fair value.


you really need to learn more about the business part of hockey. All knew that we had no chance keeping those players and neeed to sell. Getting those players without taking Salary back - other than Reasoner who we wanted to add for C depth and still couldn't afford to keep - was more than fair for both sides.
Why do you say Kayes was part of that deal? because he was drafted with that pick? Guess what? He still would have been available with the 30th pick that we already had.

Hell, He probably still would have been available in the second round.

Tallon knew young talent.

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07-22-2012, 03:22 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by MagicSlap View Post
I love how people try and bring up the Hossa/Havlat argument like it would have impacted the team winning a Cup and discounting Tallon for it.

With either of those guys (healthy) the team wins the Cup. Hell I'd almost even say they were good enough without either to win the Cup.
This. It's even funnier when they use the Madden vs Phaulson arguement.

Yeah, THAT had a cup winning impact.

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07-22-2012, 03:28 PM
  #40
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tallon knew young talent? then why did his drafting suck for the most part?

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07-22-2012, 03:30 PM
  #41
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tallon knew young talent? then why did his drafting suck for the most part?
drafting is quite the crapshoot. You guys are giving Stan a lot of credit for his drafting though. 5 years down the road it could be quite the different story.

Everybody loves the shiny new prospect. If Beach joins the team next year and puts up 20 goals and 50 points, how is Dale's drafting?

If McNeil, Kayes etc. bust, then how is Stan?

How were Dale's trades for young talent? A hell of a lot better than Stan. (this is the part where you bring up Leddy, Bowman's only good trade)

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07-22-2012, 03:59 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Rexy View Post
drafting is quite the crapshoot. You guys are giving Stan a lot of credit for his drafting though. 5 years down the road it could be quite the different story.

Everybody loves the shiny new prospect. If Beach joins the team next year and puts up 20 goals and 50 points, how is Dale's drafting?

If McNeil, Kayes etc. bust, then how is Stan?

How were Dale's trades for young talent? A hell of a lot better than Stan. (this is the part where you bring up Leddy, Bowman's only good trade)
Stalberg has been pretty good.

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07-22-2012, 04:02 PM
  #43
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Stalberg has been pretty good.
or at least much better than most people thought after his first season here.

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07-22-2012, 04:11 PM
  #44
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Stalberg has been pretty good.
I agree. I still don't think we "won" that trade though.

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07-22-2012, 05:01 PM
  #45
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I agree. I still don't think we "won" that trade though.
Right but it wasn't a trade on even terms. Teams knew the Hawks were in salary dump mode and had the Hawks by the balls. Stalberg had 43 points in 14 minutes a game last year, Versteeg had 44 in 16 minutes a game during the Cup season. I think they did ok.

If Patrick Kane had 88 points instead of 66 points last year and if Toews plays 82 games instead of 59, people would remember Stalberg more like Versteeg because the team would be winning a hell of a lot more.

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07-22-2012, 05:34 PM
  #46
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What have you done for me lately?

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Old
07-22-2012, 05:46 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexy View Post
Why do you say Kayes was part of that deal? because he was drafted with that pick? Guess what? He still would have been available with the 30th pick that we already had.

Hell, He probably still would have been available in the second round.

Tallon knew young talent.
How do you know that Kayes would have still been available? right, we will never know this.

Why do I say Kayes? Because he was a ****ing part of that deal. As was Holl. We got good value for our players back, like it or not but Bowman did a good job at getting value back without taking on additional money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexy View Post
drafting is quite the crapshoot. You guys are giving Stan a lot of credit for his drafting though. 5 years down the road it could be quite the different story.

Everybody loves the shiny new prospect. If Beach joins the team next year and puts up 20 goals and 50 points, how is Dale's drafting?

If McNeil, Kayes etc. bust, then how is Stan?

How were Dale's trades for young talent? A hell of a lot better than Stan. (this is the part where you bring up Leddy, Bowman's only good trade)
Tallons drafts are a reason why our prospect pool was bad before Bowman restructured it.

I still like Beach, but for me Beach was the BPA at that time. I thought he would have been gone as Top10 pick for sure. + Beach is the last chance for Tallons drafting to not be seen as complete failure

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07-22-2012, 09:33 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Bubba88 View Post
How were Dale's trades for young talent? A hell of a lot better than Stan. (this is the part where you bring up Leddy, Bowman's only good trade)
Too early to tell who's better, but Tallon made moves for some bad players and it looked really bad for him before a couple of them emerged. We'll see a better indication of how Bowman has done by the end of this year.

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07-22-2012, 10:47 PM
  #49
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Tallon built a team with no expectations and no pressure. He threw crap at the wall and some of it stuck. Bowman's had to much more calculated than Tallon ever had to be in Chicago. Throw money here, take a chance on a guy there, crappy draft, throw money money here, big money goaltender, crappy draft, more money thrown, big money goaltender, crappy draft..

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07-22-2012, 10:50 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by HossTheBoss View Post
Tallon built a team with no expectations and no pressure. He threw crap at the wall and some of it stuck. Bowman's had to much more calculated than Tallon ever had to be in Chicago. Throw money here, take a chance on a guy there, crappy draft, throw money money here, big money goaltender, crappy draft, more money thrown, big money goaltender, crappy draft..
That may be the most ridiculous analysis I have ever seen about a Stanley cup champion being built

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