HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Los Angeles Kings
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Bernier has asked for a trade.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-22-2012, 02:53 PM
  #376
Jason Lewis
Hockey's Future Staff
 
Jason Lewis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,031
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
I think any deal that involves picks or prospects as the central return from Columbus is unlikely and totally counterproductive for their side.

Any deal where we get a two or three year away prospect for our side or we trade away a young NHL-ready forward is counterproductive to our side. We need NHL players in their 20s, maybe early 30s at the latest.

I know this is HF Boards but we're trying to win the Cup NOW, not five years from now.

King, Nolan and Clifford should not be traded. They have proven themselves to be able to play Sutter's system with an acceptable degree of success. We should offer the guys we have extra who are not part of this team yet who are extras.
Columbus has too many defensive prospects.

Jason Lewis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2012, 03:01 PM
  #377
Rorschach
Fearful Symmetry
 
Rorschach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Country: United States
Posts: 6,268
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaygokings View Post
Columbus has too many defensive prospects.
If you look at our team or Nashville, two teams who have had a ton of defensive prospects in the recent past, I think it's apparent one can never have too many defensive prospects.

Rorschach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2012, 03:05 PM
  #378
kinghock
Registered User
 
kinghock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Mahwah,NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 727
vCash: 500
What about Korpisalo, Mason and LA 1st for Bernier and Martin Jones?

kinghock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2012, 04:41 PM
  #379
KopitarFAN
Reno Sucks!
 
KopitarFAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Lost Wages, NV
Country: United States
Posts: 9,415
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kinghock View Post
What about Korpisalo, Mason and LA 1st for Bernier and Martin Jones?
Why would they want 2 more goaltenders? They already have Bob.

KopitarFAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2012, 04:49 PM
  #380
Rorschach
Fearful Symmetry
 
Rorschach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Country: United States
Posts: 6,268
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KopitarFAN View Post
Why would they want 2 more goaltenders? They already have Bob.
We still need Jones in case Mason continues on his current trajectory.

Rorschach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2012, 04:50 PM
  #381
TwoForRoughing
Let's do it again!
 
TwoForRoughing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: UCLA, Los Angeles
Posts: 2,236
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kinghock View Post
What about Korpisalo, Mason and LA 1st for Bernier and Martin Jones?

Nope. Kings don't want Mason and we need Martin Jones. He's likely the back-up of the future.

TwoForRoughing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2012, 05:09 PM
  #382
Kings2010
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 3
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JT8888 View Post
Picks are like cars, the second you make the pick it loses the same relative value as when you buy a car and take it off the lot (hfboard logic).
The problem is that he isn't a prospect anymore so where he was picked has little to no relevance now. A pick value is just based on potential for a future in the NHL. The same goes for prospects who haven't cracked a roster. Bernier already has a future in the NHL. As a goaltender he has even more value. He still has potential to be top 10 or better goalie and that should up his value as well. Just my 2 cents, but I think he is worth more now then the number 11 pick they used on him back in the day.

I think they should hold onto him and see if a nice offer sheet comes in or trade him during the season to someone with failing goaltending .

Kings2010 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2012, 06:33 PM
  #383
etherialone
dialed in your mom
 
etherialone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The Ether
Country: United Nations
Posts: 12,990
vCash: 500
WOW is Jb being wildly undervalued by some around here.......

etherialone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2012, 06:52 PM
  #384
CNS
A World Alone
 
CNS's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 10,251
vCash: 672
Sorry but guys if you really want Mason, we can just sign Dan Cloutier and make him wear his glove on opposite hands. Except Mason would still be worse.

CNS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2012, 10:02 PM
  #385
johnjm22
16,005
 
johnjm22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Barstow, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 8,433
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnshockey View Post
Sorry but guys if you really want Mason, we can just sign Dan Cloutier and make him wear his glove on opposite hands. Except Mason would still be worse.
Playing behind a crap D will take it's toll on any goalie. I doubt there's a netminder in the league that would look good after starting 158 games for the Blue Jackets over the last 3 years.

The guy needs a change of scenery, and I for one think he would be more than adequate playing behind a good D (he's already shown that).

Do you remember when Mason replaced a Bernier, and led Canada to gold in the WJC while earning MVP status in the process? He was also the goaltender of the year in when he played for Kitchener.

johnjm22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2012, 10:44 PM
  #386
etherialone
dialed in your mom
 
etherialone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The Ether
Country: United Nations
Posts: 12,990
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjm22 View Post
Playing behind a crap D will take it's toll on any goalie. I doubt there's a netminder in the league that would look good after starting 158 games for the Blue Jackets over the last 3 years.

The guy needs a change of scenery, and I for one think he would be more than adequate playing behind a good D (he's already shown that).

Do you remember when Mason replaced a Bernier, and led Canada to gold in the WJC while earning MVP status in the process? He was also the goaltender of the year in when he played for Kitchener.
I remember.

Mason is a classic case of mental challenges standing in the way of exceptional talent to me. He still has all of the skill to be one of the best goalies in the game but something has his head in knots and that is what is keeping him down.

That said I still believe that he would make a good back up and maybe even recapture his game under the right circumstances. Playing on a team where he was a back up and had a solid D system/defence would go a long way for this kid at this point.

He was rushed into the NHL and we are seeing the results.

etherialone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2012, 11:09 PM
  #387
Ziggy Stardust
Master Debater
 
Ziggy Stardust's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 31,166
vCash: 500
Steve Mason's career closely parallels that of Andrew Raycroft, another former Calder Trophy winning goaltender who was also a star goaltender in juniors. He's still young, but I think the past two seasons in Columbus have set Mason back a bit. He may serve well as a backup, kind of like how Montoya adapted himself after being called a young stud throughout his amateur playing career (which I always believed to be a bunch of hot air).

Ziggy Stardust is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2012, 11:14 PM
  #388
The Black1963
Grit & Character
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Orange County CA
Country: United States
Posts: 13,293
vCash: 3733
I too agree that Mason could be a sleeper. A change of scenery can be a panacea to some and I think Mason could be a beneficiary here. Only downfall is that his cap hit is 2.9M.

Remember, Harrold has done well after a change of scenery and so has Fraser. Mason should do well playing behind Kings awesome defense.

Some of you need to stop being so quick to judge.

The Black1963 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2012, 11:46 PM
  #389
johnjm22
16,005
 
johnjm22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Barstow, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 8,433
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
Mason is a classic case of mental challenges standing in the way of exceptional talent to me. He still has all of the skill to be one of the best goalies in the game but something has his head in knots and that is what is keeping him down.
I think that's an unfair characterization of him. Any goaltender's confidence is going to get shot being brought up in a mismanaged organization, while playing behind a sketchy defense for years.

I agree with you that he shouldn't have been in the NHL so early. Even though he had success, it was too much, too soon. Columbus has a habit of rushing their prospects.

I mean, the guy has had success pretty much everywhere he's played. It would be interesting to see him play for a good defensive team again.

johnjm22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-23-2012, 12:07 AM
  #390
savemefromtears
Bravo Viva la France
 
savemefromtears's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: City of Angels
Country: United States
Posts: 1,890
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
I think it's apparent one can never have too many defensive prospects.
Easy there Craig Button.


savemefromtears is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-23-2012, 12:21 AM
  #391
KingLB
Registered User
 
KingLB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 7,158
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kings2010 View Post
The problem is that he isn't a prospect anymore so where he was picked has little to no relevance now. A pick value is just based on potential for a future in the NHL. The same goes for prospects who haven't cracked a roster. Bernier already has a future in the NHL. As a goaltender he has even more value. He still has potential to be top 10 or better goalie and that should up his value as well. Just my 2 cents, but I think he is worth more now then the number 11 pick they used on him back in the day.

I think they should hold onto him and see if a nice offer sheet comes in or trade him during the season to someone with failing goaltending .
Curious....what made you break your 4 year slumber for this particular post??

KingLB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-23-2012, 04:32 AM
  #392
Kings2010
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 3
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingLB View Post
Curious....what made you break your 4 year slumber for this particular post??
Ha .... I honestly couldn't remember my real screen name on here and I happened to look at my spam email and realized I signed up under that at some point.

Kings2010 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-23-2012, 06:43 AM
  #393
kinghock
Registered User
 
kinghock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Mahwah,NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 727
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KopitarFAN View Post
Why would they want 2 more goaltenders? They already have Bob.
We are getting two of their goaltenders in this deal.

kinghock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-23-2012, 06:46 AM
  #394
kinghock
Registered User
 
kinghock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Mahwah,NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 727
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoKingsGoo View Post
Nope. Kings don't want Mason and we need Martin Jones. He's likely the back-up of the future.
Korpisalo has more talent than Jones.

kinghock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-23-2012, 06:52 AM
  #395
kinghock
Registered User
 
kinghock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Mahwah,NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 727
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaygokings View Post
I think we realistically will see something like Bernier for a Columbus prospect like...Theo Ruth (actually I think would be very nice) and a 3rd or 4th round pick.

Ruth would bolster our thin stay at home defenseman prospects. You can almost guarantee that Columbus is NOT giving up any forward prospects.
We should not trade blue chip goalie prospect for mediocre defensive prospect.

kinghock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-23-2012, 08:59 AM
  #396
Jason Lewis
Hockey's Future Staff
 
Jason Lewis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,031
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kinghock View Post
We should not trade blue chip goalie prospect for mediocre defensive prospect.
You should really check out that Multiquote function Kinghock

And honestly, this is the reality of it. Regardless of Bernier being a "Blue chip" prospect, he hasn't proven anything in the NHL yet.

It would be WAY MORE of a risk for a team to trade big value for a goaltending prospect than say...a forward prospect. A forward, if he doesn't pan out is just one of 15-20 other forwards. But if you trade big for Bernier and he flops, well welcome to one of only 3-4 goalie prospects you have not being what you anticipated.

THAT is why goalie trades normally seem so undervalued. They are huge risks.

Do any of you realize that Bernier has played just 48 games? Do you realize if you include overtime losses he is 20-22? His save percentage is .910, and he has never played consistently in the role of a starter playing 8-10+ games in a row.

Some of you really over value what we can get for Bernier. We aren't going to see more then a mid level prospect or a 3rd/4th depth forward and a mid pick for him unless another player is included in the deal.

Those are not numbers that indicate he can be a No. 1 goalie.

I think he can be, but I think a lot of you are valuing his former first round tag, and not his reality price tag. Unproven back-ups who used to be first round picks don't fetch much in the offseason.


and if Korpisalo had more talent than Jones, and Columbus needs a goaltender for the future, why would the trade him away for Martin Jones?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Black1963 View Post
I too agree that Mason could be a sleeper. A change of scenery can be a panacea to some and I think Mason could be a beneficiary here. Only downfall is that his cap hit is 2.9M.

Remember, Harrold has done well after a change of scenery and so has Fraser. Mason should do well playing behind Kings awesome defense.

Some of you need to stop being so quick to judge.
I'm sorry but Peter Harrold did well with a change of scenery?

He played 11 regular season games for the Devils on an arguably much weaker defensive corps. That is the fewest amount of games he ever played in one season, less then he played in the last five years with the Kings. The only reason he was put in during the post-season is because Henrik Tallinder was hurt and the Devils didn't trust throwing Larsson into the fire so soon.

I don't think that's really "Doing well" with your change of scenery. That's pretty much status quo for a 7/8 press boxer.


Last edited by Jason Lewis: 07-23-2012 at 09:08 AM.
Jason Lewis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-23-2012, 09:41 AM
  #397
kingsfan
#SutterforanOscar
 
kingsfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,036
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonSwanson View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but LA drafted Bernier #11 overall, right?

So you are saying that a goalie drafted at #11 who has met expectations and developed for years in the system into a bonafide NHL starting goalie is not worth a top 10 pick?
Yes, I am, imagine that!

Who cares where he was drafted five years ago. Look more in line with current context. What are goalies like Bernier fetching now? Check in on Anders Lindback and you'll see, two 2nds and a 3rd.

Varlamov fetched more, but he also had playoff experience to his name and was higher regarded than Bernier at the time (and still is).

If you think Bernier will fetch a top 10 pick, you aren't going to be happy with the return IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaygokings View Post

Do any of you realize that Bernier has played just 48 games? Do you realize if you include overtime losses he is 20-22? His save percentage is .910, and he has never played consistently in the role of a starter playing 8-10+ games in a row.

Some of you really over value what we can get for Bernier. We aren't going to see more then a mid level prospect or a 3rd/4th depth forward and a mid pick for him unless another player is included in the deal.

Those are not numbers that indicate he can be a No. 1 goalie.
Those are better numbers than Bobrovsky and he landed more than a mid level prospect or 3rd/4th liner and a mid-round pick. Bob got a 2nd and a pair of fourths, and I'd think Bernier is worth more than Bob is.

Lindback's value is more likely, a pair of 2nds and a 3rd, or maybe a lower end 1st (20-30) and another pick/prospect.

kingsfan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-23-2012, 10:01 AM
  #398
kinghock
Registered User
 
kinghock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Mahwah,NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 727
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaygokings View Post
You should really check out that Multiquote function Kinghock

And honestly, this is the reality of it. Regardless of Bernier being a "Blue chip" prospect, he hasn't proven anything in the NHL yet.

It would be WAY MORE of a risk for a team to trade big value for a goaltending prospect than say...a forward prospect. A forward, if he doesn't pan out is just one of 15-20 other forwards. But if you trade big for Bernier and he flops, well welcome to one of only 3-4 goalie prospects you have not being what you anticipated.

THAT is why goalie trades normally seem so undervalued. They are huge risks.

Do any of you realize that Bernier has played just 48 games? Do you realize if you include overtime losses he is 20-22? His save percentage is .910, and he has never played consistently in the role of a starter playing 8-10+ games in a row.

Some of you really over value what we can get for Bernier. We aren't going to see more then a mid level prospect or a 3rd/4th depth forward and a mid pick for him unless another player is included in the deal.

Those are not numbers that indicate he can be a No. 1 goalie.

I think he can be, but I think a lot of you are valuing his former first round tag, and not his reality price tag. Unproven back-ups who used to be first round picks don't fetch much in the offseason.


and if Korpisalo had more talent than Jones, and Columbus needs a goaltender for the future, why would the trade him away for Martin Jones?




I'm sorry but Peter Harrold did well with a change of scenery?

He played 11 regular season games for the Devils on an arguably much weaker defensive corps. That is the fewest amount of games he ever played in one season, less then he played in the last five years with the Kings. The only reason he was put in during the post-season is because Henrik Tallinder was hurt and the Devils didn't trust throwing Larsson into the fire so soon.

I don't think that's really "Doing well" with your change of scenery. That's pretty much status quo for a 7/8 press boxer.
I am totally disagree with this statement: “We aren't going to see more than a mid level prospect or a 3rd/4th depth forward and a mid pick for him unless another player is included in the deal”.
I believe Lombardi disagree too.

kinghock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-23-2012, 11:51 AM
  #399
etherialone
dialed in your mom
 
etherialone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The Ether
Country: United Nations
Posts: 12,990
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjm22 View Post
I think that's an unfair characterization of him. Any goaltender's confidence is going to get shot being brought up in a mismanaged organization, while playing behind a sketchy defense for years.

I agree with you that he shouldn't have been in the NHL so early. Even though he had success, it was too much, too soon. Columbus has a habit of rushing their prospects.

I mean, the guy has had success pretty much everywhere he's played. It would be interesting to see him play for a good defensive team again.
In reading your response I found myself agreeing completely and it brought forth the question, aren't we both saying the exact same thing?

If it isn't in Masons head/confidence then it would have to be a deterioration of skills which I don't see or his playing on a terrible team. A combination of any of the three? Sure but that is what I said in my post. I believe that on a good team with a solid D system/D group that he could get himself back together.

We were the exact same sort of team who used to rush all of our prospects until recently and have ruined the confidence of a few exceptional young goalies in the process. I am of the opinion that Mason still can be a great goalie but it will take time and the right system/situation before it happens.


I think we are saying the same thing but if we aren't then it is my fault for not explaining myself better.

etherialone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-23-2012, 12:00 PM
  #400
Kings2010
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 3
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaygokings View Post
You should really check out that Multiquote function Kinghock

And honestly, this is the reality of it. Regardless of Bernier being a "Blue chip" prospect, he hasn't proven anything in the NHL yet.
He hasn't proven he can be a number one goalie yet , but he has proven many other things. Other then his very first 4 game stint in the NHL eveything else points to positive. Starting back to his second season he has proven plenty in limited use. 5 shut outs in 42 starts. Key wins at the end of the season for a team struggling to make the playoffs. He made an NHL roster on a playoff team, he made the roster on the Stanley cup champion team, etc.
While people will discount that because he didn't play a ton and did play in the playoffs this season, that isn't his burden to carry that is circumstance of a situation.

[/QUOTE] It would be WAY MORE of a risk for a team to trade big value for a goaltending prospect than say...a forward prospect. A forward, if he doesn't pan out is just one of 15-20 other forwards. But if you trade big for Bernier and he flops, well welcome to one of only 3-4 goalie prospects you have not being what you anticipated.[/QUOTE]

That is fine and dandy in theory , but not true in my opinion in this case. Trading draft picks only have a value placed on them by the team holding them. If you think Bernier is an upgrade over whatever options you already have on your roster then the value is there. It doesn't matter what he has or hasn't proven, it matters what the staff thinks he can bring to your team. None of the prospects in the league are more then hope for a future player. Bernier is steps closer then any of them to reaching his potential.


[/QUOTE]
Some of you really over value what we can get for Bernier. We aren't going to see more then a mid level prospect or a 3rd/4th depth forward and a mid pick for him unless another player is included in the deal.[/QUOTE]

This seems like extremely flawed logic in my book. A goalie who is young, was thought of as one of the best prospect goalies in the AHL, already has shown he can play in the NHL, has a low salary cap hit, Will be a RFA not a UFA, etc. and you think he is worth a mid level prospect ? Come on man. He has tons of value based on where he is in his career, who groomed him, how he made it to the NHL and the potential he still has to be great. Yeah give me a C rated prospect that has never played in the NHL and has a low chance of making it to the NHL. Sounds like an even value to me.


[/QUOTE]
Those are not numbers that indicate he can be a No. 1 goalie.

I think he can be, but I think a lot of you are valuing his former first round tag, and not his reality price tag. Unproven back-ups who used to be first round picks don't fetch much in the offseason.[/QUOTE]

His limited numbers to do nothing to say he can't be a number 1. On that same note if you go back and look at how many future number 1's put up similar numbers in their first years it's pretty on par with if not better then many. Kiprusoff, Fluery, Giguere, Luongo, Brodeur , Hasek,etc. All had similar stats in their first 45 games. You don't judge a goalie until they get a shot at reaching their potential and fail. He hasn't had that shot because he is playing behind a stud.

Kings2010 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:03 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.