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Old
07-22-2012, 03:16 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
Not a fan of the death penalty. Why the hundreds of thousands of penn state students, alumni, and faculty who were not involved? Why punish the innocent student athletes who have worked all their lived to become PSU football players? Why not simply punish the few enablers?
Because it's all about money.

The NCAA is more powerful than even the NFL. It is a cash-cow like organized sport has never seen before.

The fact that they are getting involved is not about some esteemed sense of justice. It's all about image. They want to show to the hundreds of thousands of idiotic and mindless college football fans that they have this power. We're talking about the fans who want blood and justice for something they were not even involved in just because they feel good pronouncing their own "higher" moral standing.

Everyone has an opinion. It's in the NCAA's best interest to give these people what they want regardless of the consequences. The NCAA loses less money doing this then they would just "letting the proper authorities" handle the matter.

I'm not going to condone the actions of any party involved, but the NCAA is overstepping their bounds here.

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07-22-2012, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Zbynek View Post
As a PSU student who just graduated in May and spent the past 4 years in State College, I can firmly attest that it would be a huge mistake if Penn State football gets the "death penalty".

Why blame the students, the players, those who weren't involved whatsoever? All that would do is make it straight up impossible for Penn State to ever recover from this whole fiasco. You purge the administration and staff and start over. You don't axe the whole football team.
Right - don't blame the students, players or even the NCAA. Blame Sandusky, Paterno, McQueery, and every other person at PSU that put football and money ahead of the safety of children. PSU should have shut down their program the minute this all came out. They should have fired Paterno 10 years ago when they found out he was providing his sick pervert buddy free access to boys.

How in the hell can the NCAA not act? Sure it's a stupid organization - but when the worst scandal EVER takes place - how can they not act? You PSU fans who want to whine about the fans and the players being punished - think about what caused this - your institution, your coach, your leadership FAILED and dozens of boys lives were completely ruined as a result. And you want to complain about losing your football. Pathetic.

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07-22-2012, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
It's not whether or not the NCAA has the ability to come up with their own conclusions about the guilt of various parties, it is whether or not the NCAA has the right to get involved to such an extent when they are in fact not a court of law.
Why wouldn't they have the right? They are a private organization with the ability to police its own members. Courts of law can punish or not punish based on their laws and the orgs can do the same irrespective of each other.

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No NCAA regulations were violated from my limited understanding of this case, nor was the University's athletic programs getting an unfair advantage.
There is a sanctionable act known as lack of institutional control. I d
Have not read thr NCAA by-laws but that is what all reports say is where this would come from.

As I said earlier as far as unfair advantage goes, I think hiding this scandal gave them an advantage as far as not having to deal with the fallout of reporting the scandal.

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07-22-2012, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Gert B Frobe View Post
Right - don't blame the students, players or even the NCAA. Blame Sandusky, Paterno, McQueery, and every other person at PSU that put football and money ahead of the safety of children. PSU should have shut down their program the minute this all came out. They should have fired Paterno 10 years ago when they found out he was providing his sick pervert buddy free access to boys.

How in the hell can the NCAA not act? Sure it's a stupid organization - but when the worst scandal EVER takes place - how can they not act? You PSU fans who want to whine about the fans and the players being punished - think about what caused this - your institution, your coach, your leadership FAILED and dozens of boys lives were completely ruined as a result. And you want to complain about losing your football. Pathetic.
This is one of the least informed posts that I've ever read on these boards. Congrats, you've demonstrated a gerbil's conception of the facts of the case, the broader situation at Penn State, and most people's reactions to it.

No one, at least not in this thread, and as far as I can tell, on these boards, has suggested anything other than holding all of those culpable responsible to the fullest extent of the law.

You know what, forget it.

Can I make a kind request of my fellow Flyers fans that we ignore this poster, and return the discussion to a more civilized and intelligent level?

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Why wouldn't they have the right? They are a private organization with the ability to police its own members. Courts of law can punish or not punish based on their laws and the orgs can do the same irrespective of each other.
Private parties do retain the right to litigate if private organizations violate their own by-laws, I believe. I'm not a lawyer, though. In this case, as I said before, I do think that the NCAA can probably assert a legal right to intervene, and I don't imagine Penn St. would fight it, even if they believed that they were wrong to do so, simply because it would look so bad.

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There is a sanctionable act known as lack of institutional control. I d
Have not read the NCAA by-laws but that is what all reports say is where this would come from.
The twister irony is that it was seemingly the presence of institutional control rather than its absence that was responsible for most of the developments in question here.

If the football program had covered up these events without the university's knowledge, then that would meet the institutional control standard, I think. The fact that the cover-up happened at the university level, albiet with the knowledge (and / or complicity) of Paterno and other members of the football staff, seems to make this an issue of a different scale than the NCAA has previously dealt with.


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07-22-2012, 03:44 PM
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This is going to destroy a football program, a collegiate institution, the pocketbooks of all the kids/parents paying tuition, all the other athletic programs associated with PSU including their new D-1 hockey program, and the finances of an entire region of Pennsylvania, State College.

The NCAA definitely has FAR too much power.
Nobody stepped up - nobody took responsibility. Nobody stopped ***** that they witnessed with their own eyes. The University and the football program systematically failed. They hid evidence and provided a perfect environment for Paterno's buddy to prey on boys. Dozens maybe hundreds of lives were completely ruined as a result.

Let's not blame the NCAA. Blame Penn State.


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07-22-2012, 03:49 PM
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Penn State brought it upon themselves. Also, Paterno was egomaniacal scum who cared only about himself and his image. It's nice that the world knows it now.

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07-22-2012, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
This is one of the least informed posts that I've ever read on these boards. Congrats, you've demonstrated a gerbil's conception of the facts of the case, the broader situation at Penn State, and most people's reactions to it.

No one, at least not in this thread, and as far as I can tell, on these boards, has suggested anything other than holding all of those culpable responsible to the fullest extent of the law.

You know what, forget it.

Can I make a kind request of my fellow Flyers fans that we ignore this poster, and return the discussion to a more civilized and intelligent level?
How was my post not civilized? You say you want to hold everybody culpable to the fullest extent of the law but let the program continue on? Whine about the NCAA if you want junior. Don't get all upset with me because you have lost the sight of exactly what was allowed to go on there.

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07-22-2012, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
Penn State brought it upon themselves. Also, Paterno was egomaniacal scum who cared only about himself and his image. It's nice that the world knows it now.
No death penalty: http://espn.go.com/college-football/...aa-source-says

Also, cut it with the Paterno ********. The guy put his image above all else and enabled a pedo, but that doesn't mean he didn't do some kind and great things. It doesn't have to be one extreme or the other.

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07-22-2012, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
No death penalty: http://espn.go.com/college-football/...aa-source-says

Also, cut it with the Paterno ********. The guy put his image above all else and enabled a pedo, but that doesn't mean he didn't do some kind and great things. It doesn't have to be one extreme or the other.
My family had dealings with him. He was a piece of **** who only wanted power and a good image. It fits his character to have done good things just to improve his image and legacy...that is far from unheard of. Doing good doesn't necessarily mean someone is a good person. Those kids are the tip of the iceberg when it comes to people he shafted for any marginal benefit to himself and his reputation.

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07-22-2012, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Gert B Frobe View Post
Right - don't blame the students, players or even the NCAA. Blame Sandusky, Paterno, McQueery, and every other person at PSU that put football and money ahead of the safety of children. PSU should have shut down their program the minute this all came out. They should have fired Paterno 10 years ago when they found out he was providing his sick pervert buddy free access to boys.

How in the hell can the NCAA not act? Sure it's a stupid organization - but when the worst scandal EVER takes place - how can they not act? You PSU fans who want to whine about the fans and the players being punished - think about what caused this - your institution, your coach, your leadership FAILED and dozens of boys lives were completely ruined as a result. And you want to complain about losing your football. Pathetic.
It's a LOT more than "just football" dude. You can't just completely eliminate the football program - tens of thousands in Centre County would be affected immediately, losing mass revenue and jobs. Countless businesses would be forced to shut down. Who is the NCAA trying to punish here?

Emphasize transparency, tight restrictions and hand down other sanctions to the administration and management. It's not about "complaining about losing our football" - this is a town that turns into the 2nd largest city in the state on Gameday Saturdays. As a resident of State College for the past 4 years, I know firsthand the possible repercussions here.

If you can't recognize the trickle-down effect of a drastic move like shutting down the football program at PSU, then you're pathetic. This is a stadium that has consistently sold out 108,000+ tickets 8 times a year for countless decades. Do the math.

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07-22-2012, 04:08 PM
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The NCAA cannot hold veto rights over the economy of an entire region. That to me clearly demonstrates too much power.

The fallout from all of this is already going to hit PSU hard over the upcoming years. I understand putting more pressure on if you're the NCAA, but leave those responsible to the authorities.

Trust me when I say that the judicial system will take care of those involved using the full extent of the law. Those culpable will be punished.

The NCAA getting involved just ensures that those not responsible will be punished as well if not significantly more than they would suffer already from the backlash of public image held by the University since all of the factors came to light.

You can't dissolve the second biggest economic hold central Pennsylvania has next to gas mining. You just can't. A sports league does not have the right.

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07-22-2012, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Zbynek View Post
It's a LOT more than "just football" dude. You can't just completely eliminate the football program - tens of thousands in Centre County would be affected immediately, losing mass revenue and jobs. Countless businesses would be forced to shut down. Who is the NCAA trying to punish here?

Emphasize transparency, tight restrictions and hand down other sanctions to the administration and management. It's not about "complaining about losing our football" - this is a town that turns into the 2nd largest city in the state on Gameday Saturdays. As a resident of State College for the past 4 years, I know firsthand the possible repercussions here.

If you can't recognize the trickle-down effect of a drastic move like shutting down the football program at PSU, then you're pathetic. This is a stadium that has consistently sold out 108,000+ tickets 8 times a year for countless decades. Do the math.
Right - that's what's important here - the trickle-down effect on State College's economy. I am not going to apologize for not giving a flying **** about that.

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07-22-2012, 04:12 PM
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NCAA expert Michael Buckner: "If the media reports are true, then the NCAA has charted an unprecedented, and perhaps unconstitutional course of action...the issues facing Penn State are best left in the expert hands of the criminal and civil courts. The NCAA is treating Penn State differently than other schools that were involved in sexual assault scandals. The NCAA is not adhering to its existing enforcement processes and procedures. The conduct of Penn State and its employees, no matter how egregious, is not a violation of an existing NCAA rule."

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07-22-2012, 04:14 PM
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Right - that's what's important here - the trickle-down effect on State College's economy. I am not going to apologize for not giving a flying **** about that.
You may not care about the livelihood of thousands of people, but the actions of a significant minority should not effect them in such a substantial manner.

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07-22-2012, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by mm6492 View Post
NCAA expert Michael Buckner: "If the media reports are true, then the NCAA has charted an unprecedented, and perhaps unconstitutional course of action...the issues facing Penn State are best left in the expert hands of the criminal and civil courts. The NCAA is treating Penn State differently than other schools that were involved in sexual assault scandals. The NCAA is not adhering to its existing enforcement processes and procedures. The conduct of Penn State and its employees, no matter how egregious, is not a violation of an existing NCAA rule."
Exactly what I've been saying all along.

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07-22-2012, 04:17 PM
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NCAA expert Michael Buckner: "If the media reports are true, then the NCAA has charted an unprecedented, and perhaps unconstitutional course of action...the issues facing Penn State are best left in the expert hands of the criminal and civil courts. The NCAA is treating Penn State differently than other schools that were involved in sexual assault scandals. The NCAA is not adhering to its existing enforcement processes and procedures. The conduct of Penn State and its employees, no matter how egregious, is not a violation of an existing NCAA rule."
That seems to be overstating the case--it is pretty clearly unprecedented, but I don't see any constitutional issues, since the NCAA's action does not preempt criminal or civil proceedings.

Regardless, reports are that Penn St. will not appeal the ruling, so much of this discussion about the legality / legitimacy of the NCAA's course is moot.

Apparently, it is something like a 5-year bowl ban, 3-year TV ban, and 60 scholarship deduction. That's an internet rumor circulating pretty hard--though not yet confirmed by any reliable sources, so take it for what you think it is worth.

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07-22-2012, 04:19 PM
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That seems to be overstating the case--it is pretty clearly unprecedented, but I don't see any constitutional issues, since the NCAA's action does not preempt criminal or civil proceedings.

Regardless, reports are that Penn St. will not appeal the ruling, so much of this discussion about the legality / legitimacy of the NCAA's course is moot.

Apparently, it is something like a 5-year bowl ban, 3-year TV ban, and 60 scholarship deduction. That's an internet rumor circulating pretty hard--though not yet confirmed by any reliable sources, so take it for what you think it is worth.
That is beyond ridiculous, and I have no personal ties to Penn State.

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07-22-2012, 04:20 PM
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I don't like the deduction of scholarships.

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07-22-2012, 04:24 PM
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I don't like the deduction of scholarships.
I think the TV ban makes the most sense--it hits at the university-program connection, but impacts the players a bit less. The scholarship ban is high, will hit at the on-field product, but can be overcome to some extent through careful recruiting and walk-ons.

THe 5-year bowl ban is pretty unprecedented in length, though. Even a HS senior will never have the chance to play in a bowl game. Guys like Hackenberg had previously pledged their commitment for anything short of a death penalty sentence, but you'd have to think this will give them pause.

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07-22-2012, 04:25 PM
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I think a 5-year bowl ban is enough. That'll destroy the football program's recruitment to begin with.

The TV deal is a huge source of revenue for the region, so I don't agree with that. Make it so they can not have nationally televised games for 3-5 years or something similar to that. A TV ban is excessive. Local media should be allowed to carry it.

I don't know if those scholarships are all football related. The number seems excessive, particularly if it's going to effect the ability for other PSU athletics to recruit.

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07-22-2012, 04:27 PM
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I think a 5-year bowl ban is enough. That'll destroy the football program's recruitment to begin with.

The TV deal is a huge source of revenue for the region, so I don't agree with that. Make it so they can not have nationally televised games or something similar to that. A TV ban is excessive. Local media should be allowed to carry it.

I don't know if those scholarships are all football related. The number seems excessive, particularly if it's going to effect the ability for other PSU athletics to recruit.
I'm also not sure how the TV ban works, given the existing television contracts. Presumably when Penn St. plays Ohio St., it will be on in Columbus, but will it really be blacked out nationally? That would seem to hurt the BTN and /or ABC-ESPN much more than Penn St.

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07-22-2012, 04:31 PM
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I'm also not sure how the TV ban works, given the existing television contracts. Presumably when Penn St. plays Ohio St., it will be on in Columbus, but will it really be blacked out nationally? That would seem to hurt the BTN and /or ABC-ESPN much more than Penn St.
It would certainly make it difficult for them to schedule any decent non-conference games.

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07-22-2012, 04:31 PM
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I'm also not sure how the TV ban works, given the existing television contracts. Presumably when Penn St. plays Ohio St., it will be on in Columbus, but will it really be blacked out nationally? That would seem to hurt the BTN and /or ABC-ESPN much more than Penn St.
That's another thing I didn't consider.

National TV ban is a two-way street. The other team also gets coverage loss.

Honestly though, I think the other teams are going to have to bite the bullet on this one. The TV ban, if it's only a national TV ban, does a lot of what you're aiming to do. Coupled with the loss of prestige from the scandal and the 5-year loss of bowl bids, it'll in theory put the Penn State football program back to square one before Paterno made it big.

I think knocking the football program down is the end goal. Accomplish that as you see fit, but some of this seems excessive. The scholarship deduction for example seems that way.

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It would certainly make it difficult for them to schedule any decent non-conference games.
Which is good. If you want to punish the organization do so by attacking a recruiting class and a prestige aspect. You don't destroy it completely but instead hurt its chances of competing for a predetermined amount of time.

Penn State Football should remain Penn State Football. They've done more damage to themselves through this scandal than the NCAA could ever do to them, but that's exactly why the NCAA should use a light touch.

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07-22-2012, 04:33 PM
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Pretty much worthless unless the NCAA also takes an active role in forcing an actual enforcement department on Penn State and takes precautions with the understanding that failure to effectively enforce child safety requirements and to report criminal proceedings in the future will lead to even greater punishments.

That's one of the reasons why the NCAA should've put down the death penalty on Penn State's football program, so as to ensure that the university actually made the relevant changes required to prevent something like this from ever happening again before they fielded their football team again, like their actions in shutting down SMU until they were confident that such gross recruitment violations were a thing of the past there, too.

If the punishments being rumored are all that the NCAA's considering, it's nothing more than beating up a monster, throwing it to the ground, and walking away, hoping that it's changed for the better by the time it gets back up.

On top of that, sorry.... but complaining that the NCAA should care about the economic well-being of the local community if the football program was shut down is just garbage. That's for the community leaders to worry about, like a certain football coach, athletics director, vice president of the university, and a president of a university. But hey, they didn't care about that and were more concerned with sticking their heads in the sand than deal with the problem at their doorsteps, so why should the NCAA worry about that if Penn State's higher ups weren't?

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07-22-2012, 04:38 PM
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Pretty much worthless unless the NCAA also takes an active role in forcing an actual enforcement department on Penn State and takes precautions with the understanding that failure to effectively enforce child safety requirements and to report criminal proceedings in the future will lead to even greater punishments.

That's one of the reasons why the NCAA should've put down the death penalty on Penn State's football program, so as to ensure that the university actually made the relevant changes required to prevent something like this from ever happening again before they fielded their football team again, like their actions in shutting down SMU until they were confident that such gross recruitment violations were a thing of the past there, too.

If the punishments being rumored are all that the NCAA's considering, it's nothing more than beating up a monster, throwing it to the ground, and walking away, hoping that it's changed for the better by the time it gets back up.

On top of that, sorry.... but complaining that the NCAA should care about the economic well-being of the local community if the football program was shut down is just garbage. That's for the community leaders to worry about, like a certain football coach, athletics director, vice president of the university, and a president of a university. But hey, they didn't care about that and were more concerned with sticking their heads in the sand than deal with the problem at their doorsteps, so why should the NCAA worry about that if Penn State's higher ups weren't?
No, what's garbage is that fact that the NCAA has any say in this matter at all.

This is a criminal investigation. The NCAA has reign only over the athletic programs. They can punish the athletic programs, but as soon as it begins to harm the education of the students and the income of those un-involved with the scandal it has gone too far.

Let the law dictate the punishment for those involved. The NCAA is not the law as much as it wants to be. In the end it only hurts those who don't deserve to be hurt because the rest will be more than taken care of by the judicial system.

The only reason the NCAA is involved at all is to protect their own image. It's all about the money. Do you really think they care that much about this?

The NCAA is in it to protect themselves just like Paterno was protecting himself.

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