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Old
07-22-2012, 09:48 PM
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
NCAA rules were violated with Reggie Bush. NO NCAA rules were violated with PSU.
Oh ok...

Quote:
10.1 Unethical Conduct
Unethical conduct by a prospective or enrolled student-athlete or a current or former institutional staff member
(e.g., coach, professor, tutor, teaching assistant, student manager, student trainer) may include, but is not limited
to, the following
: (Revised: 1/10/90, 1/9/96, 2/22/01)
It goes on to list a number of things, but as stated in the rule it is not all-inclusive.

Quote:
19.01.4 violations by Institutional staff Members. Institutional staff members found in violation of
NCAA regulations shall be subject to disciplinary or corrective action as set forth in the provisions of the NCAA
enforcement procedures, whether such violations occurred at the certifying institution or during the individual’s
previous employment at another member institution.
Quote:
6.01.1 Institutional Control. The control and responsibility for the conduct of intercollegiate athletics shall
be exercised by the institution itself and by the conference(s), if any, of which it is a member. Administrative con-
trol or faculty control, or a combination of the two, shall constitute institutional control.
And that's just from a quick five minute "search and find" in the NCAA bylaws. I didn't read the entire document cover to cover, but someone within the NCAA that is familiar with I am sure could find a few more violations in there if they want to cram it in any number of sections.

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07-22-2012, 09:53 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
Yeah, that's when the ****ing CRIMINAL COURTS come into play. You know, where the guilty get JAIL TIME. There's no need for the NCAA to get involved in criminal acts that truly had nothing to do with the football team.
TRULY HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE FOOTBALL TEAM?! The COACH of the FOOTBALL TEAM engaged in the cover up of the **** of a child BY ANOTHER COACH OF THE FOOTBALL TEAM in THE FOOTBALL TEAM'S LOCKER ROOM. Yeah, clearly nothing to see here regarding the football team. Nothing at all to do with the football team. Truly.

Quote:
Like Appleyard said:
If there was a National Chemistry Committee that enforced its own rules regarding the conduct of the Chemistry programs underneath its umbrella of control, it would absolutely be fair.

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07-22-2012, 09:55 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
Yeah, that's when the ****ing CRIMINAL COURTS come into play. You know, where the guilty get JAIL TIME. There's no need for the NCAA to get involved in criminal acts that truly had nothing to do with the football team. Like Appleyard said:
Yeah, the NCAA does have to do something. If you commit a crime and your boss hears about it, you can get fired for it. He doesn't have to say "oh well, the courts will handle it!" If the NCAA feels action must be taken, they can. DFF has supplied the rule that allows them to justify it. This is a situation where not taking additional measures to make an example of PSU and their widespread systemic failures would be an error.

To make an extreme example, there was nothing illegal about the Holocaust when it happened. Genocide wasn't illegal until after the Nuremberg Trials. That didn't stop the international community from taking action, because the freaking Holocaust warranted punitive measures. The scale of this incident warrants additional measures, if anything to show every other school what the consequences can be if they don't run a tight ship.

Edit: I fully expect the NCAA to alter their rules to make this sort of cover-up of illegal activity by an athletic program explicitly banned in the future.

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07-22-2012, 10:04 PM
  #104
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word is they are getting fined between 30-60 million. I have no problem with that as long as it doesnt go to on of the most corrupt organizations in world (NCAA). If they are fined that it should go to a charity for child abuse imo.

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07-22-2012, 10:58 PM
  #105
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PSU football program should get a severe indictment..sure the whole school isn't at fault and the penalty should be commensurate with the crime but the football institution needs to suffer some pain b/c they valued the corrupt institution over children's lives......

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07-22-2012, 11:08 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post

To make an extreme example, there was nothing illegal about the Holocaust when it happened. Genocide wasn't illegal until after the Nuremberg Trials. That didn't stop the international community from taking action, because the freaking Holocaust warranted punitive measures. The scale of this incident warrants additional measures, if anything to show every other school what the consequences can be if they don't run a tight ship.

Edit: I fully expect the NCAA to alter their rules to make this sort of cover-up of illegal activity by an athletic program explicitly banned in the future.
Except...murder? That's a bad example, man.

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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
TRULY HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE FOOTBALL TEAM?! The COACH of the FOOTBALL TEAM engaged in the cover up of the **** of a child BY ANOTHER COACH OF THE FOOTBALL TEAM in THE FOOTBALL TEAM'S LOCKER ROOM. Yeah, clearly nothing to see here regarding the football team. Nothing at all to do with the football team. Truly.
Oh that coach who is dead and that other coach who is in jail for life in that locker room that is being remodeled? I guess since all those bases are covered we might as well go after the innocent football players and the innocent staff and the innocent people who work at Beaver Stadium and the innocent students and the innocent alumni and the innocent town.

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07-22-2012, 11:13 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Gert B Frobe View Post
I haven't seen one PSU fan come out in support of an NCAA ban. It's really that simple. Explain it all you want but the folks with the silly blue paw on the back of their cars would absolutely want a ban if this took place at Michigan or Florida State, etc. To deny it is just laughable. People are fans - that's just the way it is.

Your last comment is right on - that's what is so nauseating about this whole thing. It's the PSU fans complaining about a ban - debating the power of the NCAA blah blah blah... disgusting.
I'm not a fan of Penn State, but I did play football in high school with a PSU alumnus currently in the NFL. I also HATE college football. It's boring when you're not playing. I don't even watch the NFL much anymore.

That said, I can honestly say, the people who want PSU crushed are wrong. I would say this exact same thing about ANY college football program in a similar situation, where the football program was so significantly tied to other parties that should not be punished because of a few.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justified View Post
word is they are getting fined between 30-60 million. I have no problem with that as long as it doesnt go to on of the most corrupt organizations in world (NCAA). If they are fined that it should go to a charity for child abuse imo.
This. Screw the NCAA.

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07-22-2012, 11:52 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I'm not a fan of Penn State, but I did play football in high school with a PSU alumnus currently in the NFL. I also HATE college football. It's boring when you're not playing. I don't even watch the NFL much anymore.

That said, I can honestly say, the people who want PSU crushed are wrong. I would say this exact same thing about ANY college football program in a similar situation, where the football program was so significantly tied to other parties that should not be punished because of a few.



This. Screw the NCAA.
This "few bad apples" meme is old......sorry but the football institution engaged in a criminal coverup...they should be penalized in the extreme.

PSU as an institution of higher education unfortunately will experience some of the blowback but that is a consequence of their school allowing a particular collegiate sport to dominate their identity in a cult-like fashion. This is what happens when you don't "diversify"....hopefully the academic institution will learn an invaluable lesson from this tragedy...one would hope so considering the damage.

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07-22-2012, 11:55 PM
  #109
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You also have to take into consideration that PSU gained an advantage in recruitment over some years because none of this came to light back when everything started. If all of this came out back then, then I would definitely see it affecting their recruitment and then it would make them worse for at least some period of time. That's why I don't see a problem with the NCAA dishing out punishment to the football program. Their football program as a whole benefited (until now) from the cover up.

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07-23-2012, 12:09 AM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
Oh that coach who is dead and that other coach who is in jail for life in that locker room that is being remodeled? I guess since all those bases are covered we might as well go after the innocent football players and the innocent staff and the innocent people who work at Beaver Stadium and the innocent students and the innocent alumni and the innocent town.


What is the point of the NCAA having the ability to sanction people if all you have to do to avoid sanctions is fire people? UNC probably shouldn't punished either, right? I mean, Hakeem Nicks has been in the NFL for years. Who cares if he was academically ineligible and UNC allowed him to participate? He's gone. The coach is gone. No big deal.

EDIT: Quick question...are you a PSU fan/alumni/student?

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07-23-2012, 12:10 AM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I'm not a fan of Penn State, but I did play football in high school with a PSU alumnus currently in the NFL. I also HATE college football. It's boring when you're not playing. I don't even watch the NFL much anymore.

That said, I can honestly say, the people who want PSU crushed are wrong. I would say this exact same thing about ANY college football program in a similar situation, where the football program was so significantly tied to other parties that should not be punished because of a few.
So when would the death penalty (or sanctions of this magnitude) be allowable? And if the answer is never, what would stop teams from doing such things that would warrant that type of penalty?

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07-23-2012, 12:18 AM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post


What is the point of the NCAA having the ability to sanction people if all you have to do to avoid sanctions is fire people? UNC probably shouldn't punished either, right? I mean, Hakeem Nicks has been in the NFL for years. Who cares if he was academically ineligible and UNC allowed him to participate? He's gone. The coach is gone. No big deal.

EDIT: Quick question...are you a PSU fan/alumni/student?
No affiliation whatsoever. I simply don't support punishments that hurt innocent people for no reason.

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07-23-2012, 12:23 AM
  #113
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No affiliation whatsoever. I simply don't support punishments that hurt innocent people for no reason.
So how about UNC's problems right now? No punishment?

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07-23-2012, 12:25 AM
  #114
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Dead man still walking...

Not sure if aware....

Quote:
After watching Joe Paterno's statue ripped from the ground, the Penn State community knew the worst was just beginning. Adding to the shock of the statue’s removal Sunday morning, the NCAA revealed that it will announce sanctions against Penn State at 9 a.m. Monday.

These sanctions will not include the “death penalty,” which would shut Penn State’s football program down and has been used just once in NCAA history, according to a CNN source.

Although there will be football at Penn State next year, a source familiar with the case said Penn State University will face “significant, unprecedented penalties” that include multiple years of postseason ineligibility and a loss of numerous football scholarships. Brett McMurphy, a national college football writer at CBS Sports, also reported that Penn State will be fined between $30 and $60 million, which will go to an endowment for children’s causes

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/br...0_million.html

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07-23-2012, 01:00 AM
  #115
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Penn State will be fined between $30 and $60 million, which will go to an endowment for children’s causes
Fair enough for me.

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07-23-2012, 01:13 AM
  #116
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My $0.02.

No matter how you look at this situation: Penn State dropped the ball. And therefore Penn State should be penalized for this. Can anybody sit here and tell me that Penn State brass did not drop the ball? No.

Those who suggest the students and those who had nothing to do with this should not suffer in some manner are missing the point. You win as a team and you lose as a team. Just like businesses and just like any other organization does.

Students benefited from the success of the football team for many years and they can also then suffer the consequences. Not happy? Go somewhere else. That is what makes some organizations better than others: long term sustainability scandal free.

If Penn State football team, which is not Penn State University, does so much good for the school then maybe the school should retain closer oversight into the operations of the football team. Which they did clearly know about and chose to ignore. So not only did top school brass know, top football brass did as well. Nobody did anything. Nobody. Other children were harmed because they didn't take any actions.

If this was a business, the business should be able to crash. Penn State as a football team and organization should not be free from the pending repercussions. And quite frankly, neither should the university. Bright minds will still go to Penn State for the education and those that want to go elsewhere will help other schools now gain more of a reputation.

If I'm the VP of a bank and (honestly) had no idea that crimes were being perpetrated above me... should I be able to say: hey don't make our business collapse because our leaders made bad decisions. NO. You chose the company you want to work for and represent. You choose the school you want to. Penn State has all the pride in the world, and now maybe they should eat some of that and stop partying every night and focus on their academics to regain national attention. (And I've partied at PSU my fair share!)

Penn State is pulling down the statue and doing what needs to be done because they understand that the UNIVERSITY comes before their football team. Joe was the #1 guy for the decade this went down, it's clear he was aware of some things and therefore the school is doing what needs to be done. Maybe MF global should keep a statue of corzine? (assuming there was one). No.

I applaud them.

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07-23-2012, 01:22 AM
  #117
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I wonder if the NCAA will allow any player to leave Penn State without having to sit a year. It sounds like the sanctions coming down are pretty harsh. loss of scholarships, bowl games ect ect for many years.
outside of the players on the PSU football team I dont feel bad for PSU one bit. they made their own bed.
What is a fine of 50 million going to do btw? line the pockets of the morons at the NCAA?

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07-23-2012, 01:30 AM
  #118
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Maybe MF global should keep a statue of corzine? (assuming there was one).
Nice!

Jamie Dimon is another ....

But seriously, looks like Penn State will get the Wall Street treatment..pay a civil fine and continue on....nothing more to see here.

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07-23-2012, 01:44 AM
  #119
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I wonder if the NCAA will allow any player to leave Penn State without having to sit a year. It sounds like the sanctions coming down are pretty harsh. loss of scholarships, bowl games ect ect for many years.
outside of the players on the PSU football team I dont feel bad for PSU one bit. they made their own bed.
What is a fine of 50 million going to do btw? line the pockets of the morons at the NCAA?
Or you could've just read the three posts above you.

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07-23-2012, 01:48 AM
  #120
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Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but don't punishments generally punish the people who were involved??

How would giving the death penalty to psu punish Sandusky? Or even Spanier, Paterno, Shultz, and Curly? I understand the making a point angle, and the general public is just angry so they want something to be done to quell their anger. But from a logical standpoint it simply makes no sense.

Also, anyone saying it's needs to be done to "send a message". You can't actually believe that??? ANY person participating in a cover up is always going to be more concerned about what is going to happen to themselves first and foremost over what happens to the company they work for. You think spanier, shultz and curly care what happens to psu football at this point? no they are worried about going to jail. so tell me again what this message sending is, please

EDIT - saw that the school is likely to be fined instead, point still stands to those who wanted death penalty though

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07-23-2012, 01:54 AM
  #121
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Originally Posted by PPPower View Post
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but don't punishments generally punish the people who were involved??

How would giving the death penalty to psu punish Sandusky? Or even Spanier, Paterno, Shultz, and Curly? I understand the making a point angle, and the general public is just angry so they want something to be done to quell their anger. But from a logical standpoint it simply makes no sense.

Also, anyone saying it's needs to be done to "send a message". You can't actually believe that??? ANY person participating in a cover up is always going to be more concerned about what is going to happen to themselves first and foremost over what happens to the company they work for. You think spanier, shultz and curly care what happens to psu football at this point? no they are worried about going to jail. so tell me again what this message sending is, please

EDIT - saw that the school is likely to be fined instead, point still stands to those who wanted death penalty though
That honestly would be dumb if they could only do something if the people who caused the infractions were the only ones that could get punished. That means that as long the university fired someone or released a student that caused the infraction that they could no longer be punished. That could allow colleges all over the country to do illegal activities without worry of getting punished by the NCAA as long as the infractor(s) are no longer at the university.

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07-23-2012, 02:11 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by GTopCheese View Post
That honestly would be dumb if they could only do something if the people who caused the infractions were the only ones that could get punished. That means that as long the university fired someone or released a student that caused the infraction that they could no longer be punished. That could allow colleges all over the country to do illegal activities without worry of getting punished by the NCAA as long as the infractor(s) are no longer at the university.
That's how it works in the real world though. And for the most part professional sports... Look at the NFL with the Saints current issue, punishing those culpable. The way the NCAA has handled situations with the blanket approach is a joke, because it's so broad and the instances that cause them are so narrow it fails as a decent deterrent.

Almost everyone agrees the Ohio State sanctions were overly harsh, similar to USC. The NCAA gets ridiculously up in arms when it involves players and money even though the universities make bank off the sport as does the NCAA.

The only situations were I see punishing the whole team is when the issue in question gave the team an unfair advantage in a game that was already played. Like illegal recruiting and then they went to win a game, or some sort of performance enhancing cover up. Something that would involve the coaches and players.

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07-23-2012, 02:15 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by GTopCheese View Post
Or you could've just read the three posts above you.
I have worked all weekend and I am tired as hell. excuse me for missing a post or 2.

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07-23-2012, 02:24 AM
  #124
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Originally Posted by PPPower View Post
The only situations were I see punishing the whole team is when the issue in question gave the team an unfair advantage in a game that was already played. Like illegal recruiting and then they went to win a game, or some sort of performance enhancing cover up. Something that would involve the coaches and players.
Penn State got an advantage in recruiting over if they brought the whole Sandusky thing to life earlier. They planned on covering it up the entire time for the benefit of the football program so in reality it's essentially what you just described.

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07-23-2012, 02:33 AM
  #125
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Originally Posted by GTopCheese View Post
Penn State got an advantage in recruiting over if they brought the whole Sandusky thing to life earlier. They planned on covering it up the entire time for the benefit of the football program so in reality it's essentially what you just described.
Sandusky was no longer on the coaching staff at the time and hadn't been for like 7 years or sth, I don't see how that would have hurt recruiting. If anything I feel like it would have been a reason to applaud the 'moral fiber' of Joe Paterno if he was to have exposed it, with Sandusky being a former friend and coach. Of course that isn't how it happened though. I'm just not sure how it would have hurt recruiting if exposed.

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