The players are to be blamed for signing the contracts they signed? I don't think that's what is happening, nor should it be. For instance, Suter is being blamed for the way he handled the whole situation, especially the part about how he agreed to a deal in November only to never sign it and move on to be with his bromance in Minnesota. If Weber is being blamed for anything it is his own handling of the situation leading back to last year.
The owners should be shouldering the blame here. I don't think anyone can argue that Snider is talking out of both sides of his mouth when he is both one of the cheapest owners in terms of CBA negotiations and quick to throw out such a ridiculous and irresponsible contract offer to a player. Weber should be blamed for realizing that, at any moment on the ice, he could take a career ending injury? What is he supposed to do? Ignore the offer, roll the dice, and just hope beyond hope that if next season is his last he can scrape by bagging groceries? No.
Flyers fans don't have to look down on their own team. They don't have to even agree, really. It's still quite obvious what happened here. Snider and Holmgren both wanted Weber, and they were going to do whatever they could to get him. A scheme was hatched to offer an unprecedented offer sheet knowing that the Predators might not have the money to match the ridiculous amount of "signing" bonus money offered over the course of the first six years. A business move? Sure. An attempt to screw a team over simply because they 1) have a player that Philly didn't have, and 2) aren't owned by someone who can just throw money around like it's nothing? Definitely.
Any way you look at it, this wouldn't be happening if the Flyers weren't positive that Nashville isn't financially strong enough to match. The blame goes on the shoulders of a hypocritical owner, and I think that's fair.
And if Preds fans want to go ahead and blame our owns, Poile, Weber, and his agent... well, that's fair, too.
Not sure the Flyers wouldn't extend the OS even if they believe it was a slight chance it wouldn't be matched... slight is better than zero chance, which is what they would have if re-signed or traded elsewhere... Homer took his best shot at the player he valued the most to help bring the Cup back to Philly.
If Nashville had the money that some other teams have Philly would have been more open to a trade discussion. They didn't like what Poile was wanting, so they sent an offer sheet. Wanting to help a team win the Cup is irrelevant to this discussion. Every owner and every GM wants to win the Cup. The bottom line is Philly saw an opportunity to go after a player on a team without a lot of money to just throw around. That is why the people saying this is economic bullying are correct.
If Nashville had the money that some other teams have Philly would have been more open to a trade discussion. They didn't like what Poile was wanting, so they sent an offer sheet. Wanting to help a team win the Cup is irrelevant to this discussion. Every owner and every GM wants to win the Cup. The bottom line is Philly saw an opportunity to go after a player on a team without a lot of money to just throw around. That is why the people saying this is economic bullying are correct.
The "Captain" is complicit in the bullying by accepting the offer sheet.
Looking over Kevin Allen's article, there is only one reason not to match and it trumps his listed reasons to keep Weber ... financial ability.
Kevin Alllen Why Predators must match Weber offer sheet:
Dead on article.
Allen's analysis is spot on - this is simply not a hockey transaction. This goes all the way to the credibility of the franchise.
If you don't or can't match, how do you look your fans in the eye and ask them to buy season tickets?
If you can swing a deal with some Philly guys coming back, then you can spin it like you traded Weber because he didn't want to be here. Fans would accept that.
But if he leaves for nothing but picks - then you might as well close up shop.
During today's lunch hour on Sirius, Jim Diamond said he thinks the Pred's have to sign Weber - that the team's chairman (he says) Cigararran said after Suter left that money would not the issue with Weber.
But - he has also said that the Pred's aren't profitable and that they (owners) have had to pump $60M out-of-pocket into the franchise since 2006. That doesn't sound like they would be comfortable with the huge up front tab for Weber.
The "Captain" is complicit in the bullying by accepting the offer sheet.
Looking over Kevin Allen's article, there is only one reason not to match and it trumps his listed reasons to keep Weber ... financial ability.
Complicit, sure, but signing that contract is understandable. I'd do it. You'd do it. My point is that things weren't going the way the Flyers wanted them to go, so they strong armed the Preds. You can see it as completely wrong, or you can see it as strictly business. You can see it any number of ways in between. It's still what happened.
My biggest problem with how Weber has handled this goes back to last summer, but I can still understand that to a point. Looks like Poile should've taken that 3 year deal after all, but hindsight is 20/20.
edit: and I agree that Kevin Allen's warm and fuzzy list of reasons the Preds have to match is trumped by money availability. That list is nice and it is accurate. Neither of those things matter without money.
During today's lunch hour on Sirius, Jim Diamond said he thinks the Pred's have to sign Weber - that the team's chairman (he says) Cigararran said after Suter left that money would not the issue with Weber.
But - he has also said that the Pred's aren't profitable and that they (owners) have had to pump $60M out-of-pocket into the franchise since 2006. That doesn't sound like they would be comfortable with the huge up front tab for Weber.
It's funny how we keep seeing stories about the owners losing money since 2006 when they didn't buy until late 2007.
The "Captain" is complicit in the bullying by accepting the offer sheet.
Looking over Kevin Allen's article, there is only one reason not to match and it trumps his listed reasons to keep Weber ... financial ability.
The problem is, if you don't match, then there may be worse financial ramifications than if you do match.
There will simply be no reason to support this franchise anymore. This is a team that's really not trying to win. What's going to get people into Bridgestone for the next 5 years? Even worse - even if you do hit a homerun with those picks, then how can you get the fans to buy in again if you do become good, you've got the rep that those players will just leave as soon as they can.
This is where being a cheapskate franchise for so long has come back to bite us. By itself, folks might be able to stomach the Weber situation. But by being cheap for so long , people are just going to throw up there hands and say, "why bother" - this might be the straw that broke the camel's back.
Complicit, sure, but signing that contract is understandable. I'd do it. You'd do it. My point is that things weren't going the way the Flyers wanted them to go, so they strong armed the Preds. You can see it as completely wrong, or you can see it as strictly business. You can see it any number of ways in between. It's still what happened.
My biggest problem with how Weber has handled this goes back to last summer, but I can still understand that to a point. Looks like Poile should've taken that 3 year deal after all, but hindsight is 20/20.
Understandable from a short term monetary perspective. Without knowing the structure of the Preds offers, we don't know if it would have been understandable to accept those as well. Signing an offer sheet that contains so much front loaded "bonus" money gives the appearance more of greed than simply looking for a sizable last career contract.
The problem is, if you don't match, then there may be worse financial ramifications than if you do match.
There will simply be no reason to support this franchise anymore. This is a team that's really not trying to win. What's going to get people into Bridgestone for the next 5 years? Even worse - even if you do hit a homerun with those picks, then how can you get the fans to buy in again if you do become good, you've got the rep that those players will just leave as soon as they can.
This is where being a cheapskate franchise for so long has come back to bite us. By itself, folks might be able to stomach the Weber situation. But by being cheap for so long , people are just going to throw up there hands and say, "why bother" - this might be the straw that broke the camel's back.
If the team doesn't have $13,000,000 cash on hand ... they can't sign. If $27,000,000 in the next 49-50 weeks risks bankrupting the organization ... they can't match. Which is better ... risking upsetting fans and losing some ticket revenue or risking bankrupting the franchise in the short term?
This CANNOT be an emotional decision. It is purely a matter of financial ability to match or not.
I suppose no one outside the inner circles really knows who Poile wanted from the Flyers, but the indication I'm getting was both B. Schenn and Couturier for sure to start and other talent added on from there... To me the potential equivalent of asking for both Suter and Weber back in their early years.
Business dealings on a high stakes level almost always is a play for the upper hand on all sides... economic bullying or playing the better hand to the best of their ability? Is it bullying to demand a gutting of the young talent on a team for an asset you have? Poile went after the most he could get for Weber and maybe aimed too high or waited too long... IMO he did not play his great hand to the best advantage, and that had nothing to do with his being merciful.
Organizations want their GMs to do their best and take the position away from them when they don't do enough... All this was moot points in the days of Ownership ruling contracts... with looser and looser Free Agency comes more and more competition... and when players compete to the available dollars and owners compete for the top players, all Hell breaks out and gloves com off.
I point no finger in any one direction in these matters... once Professional Sports became almost 100% business nothing was personal any longer and it became dog eat dog. I don't blame Poile for trying to get the most for Weber, and I don't blame Homer for doing everything legal he can to get Weber and to protect as much of his assets that he can in the process.
Understandable from a short term monetary perspective. Without knowing the structure of the Preds offers, we don't know if it would have been understandable to accept those as well. Signing an offer sheet that contains so much front loaded "bonus" money gives the appearance more of greed than simply looking for a sizable last career contract.
Fair point. If Weber were to go down with a career ending injury in the first game of the upcoming season, how much of how contract is guaranteed? All of it, correct?
Most of the out of pocket money is not from team losses it's from the Boot's debacle.
which explains bringing in B. Wilson, and if rumors are true, him upping his percentage of ownership... they are gradually replacing Boots with other investors(and recouping the extra money they spent to buy out his shares)
unless they have been lying through their teeth there is no way this team has lost $60 million on operations, not even close...
which explains bringing in B. Wilson, and if rumors are true, him upping his percentage of ownership... they are gradually replacing Boots with other investors(and recouping the extra money they spent to buy out his shares)
unless they have been lying through their teeth there is no way this team has lost $60 million on operations, not even close...
Considering the $60m figure came from a guy who also said that the owners have been pumping money into the team since 2006 when they didn't actually own the team until the winter of 2007, I wouldn't read too much into the accuracy.
If Nashville had the money that some other teams have Philly would have been more open to a trade discussion. They didn't like what Poile was wanting, so they sent an offer sheet. Wanting to help a team win the Cup is irrelevant to this discussion. Every owner and every GM wants to win the Cup. The bottom line is Philly saw an opportunity to go after a player on a team without a lot of money to just throw around. That is why the people saying this is economic bullying are correct.
Throw in to the fray the word out of Canada that the Canucks thought about putting in an offer sheet, but didn't because they assumed the Predators would match. ( http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/V...925/story.html )
Apparently they're not as devious as Philly in offering such a predatory offer sheet. Plus the Canucks have some history with offer sheets creating bad blood between them and other teams.
Anyway it seems clear that while the Canucks thought to themselves "Man we'd really like to have Weber and maybe we could put in an offer sheet for him, buuut the Predators will probably match and Poile will be furious", the Flyers thought to themselves "Man we'd really like to have Weber so let's create an offer sheet that's as difficult as possible for Nashville to match, **** Poile!".
Throw in to the fray the word out of Canada that the Canucks thought about putting in an offer sheet, but didn't because they assumed the Predators would match. ( http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/V...925/story.html )
Apparently they're not as devious as Philly in offering such a predatory offer sheet. Plus the Canucks have some history with offer sheets creating bad blood between them and other teams.
Anyway it seems clear that while the Canucks thought to themselves "Man we'd really like to have Weber and maybe we could put in an offer sheet for him, buuut the Predators will probably match and Poile will be furious", the Flyers thought to themselves "Man we'd really like to have Weber so let's create an offer sheet that's as difficult as possible for Nashville to match, **** Poile!".
Yes, other teams should create offer sheets easy for Nashville to match so they don't get the player they are trying to and make it easy for NASHVILLE to retain said player?
Yes, other teams should create offer sheets easy for Nashville to match so they don't get the player they are trying to and make it easy for NASHVILLE to retain said player?
Who said that? Preds fans have been saying that Philly created an unprecedented deal that pays out the majority of its money in "signing bonuses" over six years in an effort to strong arm the club. This after the owner of the Flyers was among the most conservative during CBA negotiations, and will likely be the same way this summer (hypocritical).
I'm pretty sure we have the right to be upset with our team once again being put against a wall because of money.
Yes, other teams should create offer sheets easy for Nashville to match so they don't get the player they are trying to and make it easy for NASHVILLE to retain said player?
This offer sheet goes beyond not easy for us to match. It's specifically designed to crush us. If you don't agree, after reading all the posts here, then there's obviously nothing I'll be able to say to change your mind. And there's nothing you can say to change mine. I'm just sayin, some teams aren't douchey enough to put out such a ridiculous offer sheet.
On another note, here is my fantasy scenario: Poile calls a press conference, walks in and doesn't even sit down, throws a matched offer sheet on the table and yells "Can't bully us, mother****ers! Suck it, Holmgren!" and walks out with double middle fingers over his shoulder.
I think we can file that in the "Most Unlikely Speeches Poile Will Ever Make" category.
Better yet. Poile walks out, Shea walks in and says: "I am voluntarily pushing my front loaded bonuses to the back years so My Team can spend money now to bring the Cup to Smashville this season.
He goes on to say: "Richie Allen, the great baseball player of the 60's and 70's began his career with the Phillies. In 1970, he had enough and demanded to be traded, which he was. His exiting statement was - I'll play first, third, left. I'll play anywhere - except Philadelphia. I'm with ya, Richie!"
Maybe we've already given our response. David Jr. just can't get the fax machine to work.
I know we keep talking about how massive this contract is, yada yada, yada, but it's pretty sad if we can't afford a max contract for just 1 skater and 1 goalie, especially considering how many other places on the team we are penny pinching.
On another note, here is my fantasy scenario: Poile calls a press conference, walks in and doesn't even sit down, throws a matched offer sheet on the table and yells "Can't bully us, mother****ers! Suck it, Holmgren!" and walks out with double middle fingers over his shoulder.
I think we can file that in the "Most Unlikely Speeches Poile Will Ever Make" category.
Thank you for that mental image! It gave me the best laugh I've had in days.
Fair point. If Weber were to go down with a career ending injury in the first game of the upcoming season, how much of how contract is guaranteed? All of it, correct?
All of it is guaranteed. The signing bonuses are not insurable from injury, so that's 78m as I understand it that MAY end up entirely out of the pockets of NSH or phi.
