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The Official Ex-Habs Thread Part IV (All Former Habs Players Discussed Here!)

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Old
07-22-2012, 12:22 PM
  #801
Et le But
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
He's insanely overrated by Habs fan due to nostalgia. I get why but imagine if we had a real star player for that 10 years instead of a 50pt centre?
Koivu >>>>>>>>>>>> Ribeiro

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07-22-2012, 12:28 PM
  #802
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Koivu spent years playing with Brian Savage and Sergei Zholtok. He was a 50 point 1st line center playing with 3rd line wingers. In his best season (75 points) he had checking line winger Christopher Higgins and second line winger Michael Ryder on his line.

Koivu went through a massive knee injury, cancer, and a stick in the eye.

He outplayed Joe Thornton in a memorable playoff series.

He was dumped for Gomez. Gomez shows up and gets Gionta and Cammalleri on his first day. He gets twice Koivu's salary, and he costs us Higgins and McDonagh.

And then Koivu massively outproduces Gomez in every conceivable metric in the following two seasons.

The only rating error of Koivu by Habs fans are the idiots who though Gomez would be an upgrade back in the summer of 2009.
I'm gonna go ahead and quote this for truth; especially that last part.

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07-22-2012, 05:22 PM
  #803
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Koivu >>>>>>>>>>>> Ribeiro
Amen

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07-22-2012, 06:35 PM
  #804
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Oh dear. You know I'm going to reply to every single one of you, so let's get to it, shall we?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasculio View Post
Let's not forget that before his first big knee injury, he was over a PPG in the season, actually, he was the most productive player in the NHL. But well, after that, he just couldn't fly up the ice anymore, was relying heavily on his skating abilities...

Anyway, there were a lot of atrocious management during those years, and equally bad drafting and development. So he never really had the chance to play up to his potential.

He still is a perseverance icon, and I'm pretty sure he inspired a lot of kids that he met at the hospital, and he helped quite a lot of people with his foundation.

He's no 'god', but let's not downplay him please.
What I said, and will continue to say is that he never lived up to his potential (due to bad management, injuries, cancer... things that weren't his fault.) He's a hero, and icon, an inspiration - I know that! I like the guy, I just don't think he's a god.

The Habs have been around for 100+ years and we've been spoiled to have many ELITE players. What I said was imagine if we had a legit star as a captain for 10 years.

(And you can't use ONE half season in 1997 to argue that he's a super-talented player. He might have been then, but he wasn't after that - his legacy can't be painted by his potential afterall)

Your response was reasonable at least. Let's keep going!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosso Scuderia View Post
Well well, the guy that got upset that people didn't like Ribeiro is now upset at the people that likes Koivu.

First of all, who are you to tell us why Koivu is loved, idolized and respected here. There's many reason why so many people still lilke him and it has nothing to do with nostalgia like you said.

Second, please learn how to use the word "overrated" properly. Noboby here is talking about his production or how good he is compared to other players.. So I don't see why you are using the word "overrated" and talking about his production.

You know what, for a player that has a production between 50-60pts in his career but still have so many fans, I think he deserves more praise than anything.
Firstly, you're wrong about everything you say - ever. You've proved it with your posts and non-arguments earlier in the thread.

Secondly, I didn't say you can't worship or idolize him - I don't care who you cheer for or how - I stated my opinion and that's it. If a player is going to be referred to as a god he better have done something ON THE ICE. And Koivu for all his merits and legitimacy hasn't accomplished anything ELITE on the ice. How is this a difficult argument to handle?

He's overrated if you and you cronies are going to call him a god. He's an idol and a hero for tons of kids (me too!) but he's not a great player. Never was, never will be. We're the Montreal Canadiens, if Koivu is god what are Dryden, Vezina, Morenz, Richard, Richard, Lafleur, Geoffrion, Robinson, Gainey and Beliveau (not to mention the tens of other elite players we've produced)?

Hockey is played on the ice and Koviu didn't accomplish anything on it. No individual accolades, no team championships - nothing. I'm not blaming him for anything at all, I'm just saying that he's not a god. You can't be a god if you haven't won anything - ever!!!!!!

Koivu isn't even in the same league as the players listed above but our generation is just so narcissistic and self-involved that the players they see growing up are the "best ever of all time and how dare you suggest otherwise". It's tasteless and unbecoming of otherwise decent people. Get some perspective for god's sake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Koivu spent years playing with Brian Savage and Sergei Zholtok. He was a 50 point 1st line center playing with 3rd line wingers. In his best season (75 points) he had checking line winger Christopher Higgins and second line winger Michael Ryder on his line.

Koivu went through a massive knee injury, cancer, and a stick in the eye.

He outplayed Joe Thornton in a memorable playoff series.

He was dumped for Gomez. Gomez shows up and gets Gionta and Cammalleri on his first day. He gets twice Koivu's salary, and he costs us Higgins and McDonagh.

And then Koivu massively outproduces Gomez in every conceivable metric in the following two seasons.

The only rating error of Koivu by Habs fans are the idiots who though Gomez would be an upgrade back in the summer of 2009.
Good post but it has very little to do with my argument dude. I know, we all know about Koviu's bad luck and bad management and bad linemates - so what? It's not like we can call every case of unfulfilled potential gods.

Koivu's a great man but he didn't do anything of note on the ice and it's plainly clear. He's going to be honored for being a dedicated soldier and captain for a long time but that's it - we've had players like Beliveau and Richard - it's shortsighted to place Koivu at their level when his play on the ice didn't merit it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
So 2nd year players can't be 2nd line centers...?

He had the 3rd most points on the Capitals--4th in points per game (behind Backstrom, Ovechkin, Semin). He was 42nd in the league among centers in points. He's terrific at carrying the puck up in transition, has good speed and puck possession skills, and he's fundamentally strong.

Yup, he counts as a good 2nd line C.
He's a good players but wouldn't you agree that younger players are more prone to inconsistency, adaptability and so on? The Caps could'nt really rely on a rookie to pick up the secondary scoring behind Backstrom's line two years ago and it showed (27 points) and 40ish points last year is still on the low end for a 2nd line center. Ribeiro gives them a legitimate, established first line offensive center to play behind Backstrom.

Maybe Johansson can keep developing and growing this season but the Caps were clearly worried and pulled the trigger for a 5m dollar center - they share my concerns.

I don't know if we're disagreeing or not, because I completely agree with your points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PyrettaBlaze View Post
So last week you defended Ribeiro as if he were basically your brother and now you say that Koivu is "insanely overrated by Habs fans due to nostalgia". Koivu, who did MANY great things for the city of Montreal and who was a hero to MANY children (not just on a hockey front) isn't just "insanely overrated due to nostalgia". He deserves all the praise he gets and I would welcome him back to Montreal any time with open arms. Get a ****ing grip.
I like being reasonable and tempered. When people were frothing over Gauthier I offered simple, CORRECT counter-arguments because as it turns out: Habs fans are ****ing retarded. Incapable masses of bumbling morons who don't know anything about hockey at all, whatsoever.

You'd welcome Koivu back with open arms? As a player or as a non-hockey figure? Where exactly does a late 30s, heavily injured 40-50 pt player fit in with DD, Pleks and the developing Lars Eller? Would it be worth it to have Koivu on the 4th line at ~3m a year? OR are you just saying nonsense because you completely missed the point.


Read my arguments above, if you disagree offer your own arguments - otherwise you're only embarrassing yourself (even more than you have already).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Cutter View Post
The problem that some people don't understand is that Saku Koivu played with scrubs his whole ****ing career. I don't think many players would produce at a PPG pace with players like Rucinsky, Savage, Petrov, Zednik, etc. Like mentioned by others, he lead the league in scoring before that knee injury, ahead of players like Lemieux and Gretzky. Injury ruined a good career that could have been a great one.

Another thing some people should be blaming management rather than Saku Koivu. Maybe if the management brought depth and talent to the team Koivu would have been able to contribute more. Our management back then (and it's still the case in the last couple of years) never maximized our assets to get good value in return. Let's say we don't trade half of our team for 5 years of Mark Recchi, let's say we get more than Shayne Corson for Pierre Turgeon who was coming off at 96 pts season and was still an elite #1 center, let's say we draft better or get players for Damphousse instead of getting Marc-Andre Thinel and Marcel Hossa out of it, let's say we get more than Jim Montgomery for Carbonneau who still had some solid hockey to offer, etc. I can go on for a while about this. We started having a credible team once Gainey settled in but Koivu's best years especially after his cancer were behind him.

The people that criticize Koivu for his production are the same that say Plekanec is not a #1 center but a good #2 center. Some people have to realize that 70 pts in today's NHL is top 10 production for centers and it mainly depends on who you play with. Saku Koivu hit 70+ pts twice with wingers such as Ryder, Higgins and Zednik. Not many centers would do better.

Anyway, I'm still insulted by those bums who made a rally for Kovalev but nothing for Saku Koivu which is a slap to the face to the man who represented our franchise for more than a decade and contributed so much to this team on and off the ice.
He led the league for half a season (at a pace that wasn't much higher than PPG) ONCE IN HIS ENTIRE LIFE. You really can't prorate that over a 10 year+ career, it's ludicrous.

I know he played with scrubs but so what? If he didn't produce he didn't produce - that's it. How can one player be "a god" if he hasn't won anything hockey-related individually or on his team? The game is meant to be won, he hasn't won - simple as that.

I'm not saying he's a bad guy, or a terrible player or anything. He's a great man and his contributions to the MRI and Bone Scan machines at the Montreal General directly affected my life - it's foolish to assume that since I'm critically assessing his hockey skills that I don't revere the man for his charity work.

(And while we're at it, I think Carbonneau was a much better hockey player than Koviu ever was. Flame away, I'll respond in kind)

Also, who cares about the rallys?


Quote:
Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Turning Latendresse, Higgins and a multitude of scrubs into top 6 players. Normally I agree with you but you are out to lunch here. Koivu was an excellent player surrounded with trash. Many nights he would carry the team. He might not have got the most points but he belonged on the top line.
He's not a god. If you disagree with my statements above let me know, but I feel like we're agreeing.

He's a good player, a great man, an icon, etc. I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that he's an excellent player when the Habs have such a rich history and Koivu's only hit 70 pts twice - once due to Coach Carbo and Slapshot Souray's wonderful PP-scheme.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Koivu >>>>>>>>>>>> Ribeiro
As a person - seen through the media glare and public projections and downright "mah gut says so" phone calls to sports radio? Sure thing.

As players, not so. Very similar career ppg, but I'd give it to Ribeiro for staying healthier generally and because Koivu got a lion's share of icetime from his second season on while Ribeiro toiled on the lower lines for the first half of his career.

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Old
07-22-2012, 07:02 PM
  #805
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
The only rating error of Koivu by Habs fans are the idiots who though Gomez would be an upgrade back in the summer of 2009.
Not sure why fans should be the ONLY ones who rated this the wrong way....how about the guy that made the trade? We didn't trade anyone. He did. THAT's ANOTHER really bad move he did. Fans? Well, again, some might feel it was time to move on. I might have been in that group. But MOST were agreeing that it was NOT for Scott Gomez. You move on if you get better. Not if you actually pick a guy who Rangers fans were glad to see him go and that's WITHOUT the money factor. We also took that money on top of it.

Strange though....somehow fans can never be wrong. Can you believe that fans are to hold accountable for their opinions but not management? How strange is that?

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07-22-2012, 07:20 PM
  #806
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On the Koivu vs Ribeiro subject, not sure why it got into that, well everyboyd has their strenght. Yet, while I'm not here to destroy the "icon" that some think he is and go as far as to think his jersey has to be retired, which makes no sense to me, Koivu was a great leader by example. But you won't find a lot of reports about how he was a great leader inside the room and he never was seen as a guy who loves to regroup his fellow players and be that kind of leader. So when we tag him with the "leader" label, I suggest we insert "by example on the ice". And his battle with cancer, like tons of normal people are doing as we speak, with the exception that he needed to work harder because of the job he was doing. Yet, he was able to work harder 'cause he was already in a much better shape than the normal people were to begin with. Not taking anything away from him, just belives that in needs a little bit of perspective. Every person that lives with a cancer and has to battle through it are incredibly courageous. I know. My father had to battle through 2 cancers and finally lost to the 2nd one 2 years ago. But I don't believe it should have been use for or against Koivu to prove that he was a guy that had a strong work ethic and a dedication to the game. We knew that already. But I will add that, on the ice, and if he would not have been put in the terrible situation he was put in by the people who thought that getting rid of Damphousse, Turgeon and Co was a superb idea, if the guy, well surrounded, would have been a 2nd line centerman, in a good team...he would have been known as one of the best that has ever played the game. I believe that very much. I would not have tagged him as a Captain, he would not have had the language issue to deal with, he would have been with good players, not be the "by default" 1st line centerman of an average team, I tell you, this is CLEARLY for me an example of WRONG PLACE WRONG TIME, instead of bad player or overrated player. I think it is pretty clear. When it counted the most, he was there. Was a top player in the playoffs. Was there in key time. But I will also believe that he was not the guy that should have LEAD the team. You do have plenty of leaders by examples on a team, and not everybody are captains. I believe it's the case for him. We TOTALLY screwed a formidable talent by giving him roles he should not have filled. That,s my take on Koivu.

Now, on Ribeiro, well it's well known here that everybody that leaves are idiots and "additions by substractions". A guy that most haters here were wondering how many days Dallas would be able to deal with him are nowhere to be found. Yet, some might have the nerve to FINALLY use his trade to prove how he was SOOOOOOO disruptive. The matter of the fact is that the guy is incredibly skilled. Yet, you can't have on a team 20 incredible milk drinkers work ethic masters. I can tell you that on every team that won a cup, you didn't have 20 incredible human beings. Some, to this day, are still not incredible. Others were not but because of the team that were in, became people like that. Ribeiro seems to be the guy who lives is own life. Yet, he produced. Might be cocky. Might be diving. But he produced. Didn't have the chance to particiapte in a lot of playoffs but the one he did, he did fairly well. Is he the guy you want to lead your team? Of course not. But geez...again....there's so many leaders you can have. Would be fun to have 20 leaders, yet again....20 leaders going on their own direction? Maybe wouldn't be that productive either. Ribeiro might have all sorts of weaknesses, but his strenght is that he was producing. And he, also, was not incredibly lucky in the teams he was paired with. Was at the right place right time to develop as a hockey player but was at the wrong place wrong time to go beyond. I'd take this kind of player any day of the week if I'd be sure that my leadership core on my team would have no problem handling him. CLEARLY, we didn't have that core back in the days from players to management.

Which player would I take between both at their prime? I guess I'd go with Koivu. With the right surroundings. But people dissing on Ribeiro are just dishonest and just don't want to appreciate that he totally proove them wrong. But then, I guess you're waiting for him to lead his team into the playoffs right? Okay. Yet, we found a reason why Koivu didn't do it. I had hope we'd be honest enough to find it for Ribeiro as well.

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07-22-2012, 09:47 PM
  #807
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
Firstly, you're wrong about everything you say - ever. You've proved it with your posts and non-arguments earlier in the thread.

Secondly, I didn't say you can't worship or idolize him - I don't care who you cheer for or how - I stated my opinion and that's it. If a player is going to be referred to as a god he better have done something ON THE ICE. And Koivu for all his merits and legitimacy hasn't accomplished anything ELITE on the ice. How is this a difficult argument to handle?

He's overrated if you and you cronies are going to call him a god. He's an idol and a hero for tons of kids (me too!) but he's not a great player. Never was, never will be. We're the Montreal Canadiens, if Koivu is god what are Dryden, Vezina, Morenz, Richard, Richard, Lafleur, Geoffrion, Robinson, Gainey and Beliveau (not to mention the tens of other elite players we've produced)?

Hockey is played on the ice and Koviu didn't accomplish anything on it. No individual accolades, no team championships - nothing. I'm not blaming him for anything at all, I'm just saying that he's not a god. You can't be a god if you haven't won anything - ever!!!!!!

Koivu isn't even in the same league as the players listed above but our generation is just so narcissistic and self-involved that the players they see growing up are the "best ever of all time and how dare you suggest otherwise". It's tasteless and unbecoming of otherwise decent people. Get some perspective for god's sake.
Seriously, you are arguing that Koivu is not God? Is that why you call Koivu "overrated"? Really? You thought that "Le Tricolore" is really comparing Koivu to god? .. Price was called Jesus Price not long ago.. and people were bowing Halak like a god.. Did you get upset too??

Winning the cup is not the only accomplishment in hockey. What about carrying the Olympics torch? What about winning the first IIFH World Championship for Finland? What about 4 Olympics medals? What about being the first European Captain ... and also being the longest-serving captain for the most prestigious hockey team in the world? Is that what you call "hasn't accomplished anything"?

Laugh at my argument all you want so you can feel superior but I'm not the one bringing the number of children a guy has to defend him or compared Koivu with legends which none of us did, except you. If you need to put words like "Saku is the best ever of all time" in our mouths then have fun, it does make us look stupid and you smart.

Anyway, there's a reason why Koivu was our captain, there's a reason why Koivu is the captain of team Finland (over future HOF Selanne), there's a reason why he's an assistant captain for the Ducks, there's a reason why he will be carrying to Olympics torch. Maybe not for you, but when Koivu will retire, he will remember as a warrior, a professional, a leader and a rolemodel. If he wins the cup before his retirement, it would just a big bonus but for me, I can already tell that he had a great and successful career.

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07-22-2012, 09:49 PM
  #808
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Originally Posted by Rosso Scuderia View Post
Seriously, you are arguing that Koivu is not God? Is that really your argument for "bashing" Koivu? Really? You thought that "Le Tricolore" is really comparing Koivu to god? .. Price was called Jesus Price not long ago.. and people were bowing Halak like a god.. Did you get upset too??

Winning the cup is not the only accomplishment in hockey. What about carrying the Olympics torch? What about winning the first IIFH World Championship for Finland? What about 4 Olympics medals? What about being the first European Captain ... and also being the longest-serving captain for the most prestigious hockey team in the world? Is that what you call "hasn't accomplished anything"?

Laugh at my argument all you want so you can feel superior but I'm not the one bringing the number of children a guy has to defend him or compared Koivu with legends which none of us did, except you. If you need to put words like "Saku is the best ever of all time" in our mouths then have fun, it does make us look stupid and you smart.

Anyway, there's a reason why Koivu was our captain, there's a reason why Koivu is the captain of team Finland (over future HOF Selanne), there's a reason why he's an assistant captain for the Ducks, there's a reason why he will be carrying to Olympics torch. Maybe not for you, but when Koivu will retire, he will remember as a warrior, a professional, a leader and a rolemodel. If he wins the cup before his retirement, it would just a big bonus but for me, I can already tell that he had a great and successful career.
Pretty solid post, noob.

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07-23-2012, 10:47 AM
  #809
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Whiskey,

What Koivu did of note during his tenure here is that he captained a team that should have been a regular lottery team to frequent first round and second round playoff visits.

Are you one of those posters who opposes tanking? I don't know, but if you are you should worship Koivu, as his main impact here was to keep us out of the basement and make us a respectable team.

It's true that he never won a cup but there is no one player who could have made us a cup winner, except possibly Hossa/Sundin in 2007-08 but that would have been Hossa/Sundin in addition to what we already had.

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07-23-2012, 10:48 AM
  #810
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Not sure why fans should be the ONLY ones who rated this the wrong way....how about the guy that made the trade? We didn't trade anyone. He did. THAT's ANOTHER really bad move he did. Fans? Well, again, some might feel it was time to move on. I might have been in that group. But MOST were agreeing that it was NOT for Scott Gomez. You move on if you get better. Not if you actually pick a guy who Rangers fans were glad to see him go and that's WITHOUT the money factor. We also took that money on top of it.

Strange though....somehow fans can never be wrong. Can you believe that fans are to hold accountable for their opinions but not management? How strange is that?
You are correct. Management is more to blame. However, your point is in some ways so obvious that I just assume it without even bothering to mention it.

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07-23-2012, 11:40 AM
  #811
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Whiskey:

Fair points, re: Johansson.

For what it's worth, I believe the Caps acquired Ribeiro more because he was available for a cheap price than because they don't have faith in Johansson. Rather, Johansson's proven to be strong on the wing, and it's always safer to have 3 center-capable top-6 wingers than only 2. Johansson's just as good on the wing, so might as well acquire a 2nd line C as well.

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07-23-2012, 11:46 AM
  #812
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
You are correct. Management is more to blame. However, your point is in some ways so obvious that I just assume it without even bothering to mention it.
Nope. Not that obvious. I keep hearing for some that we shouldn't be hard on Timmins 'cause the draft is a crapshoot. Yet, I also keep saying threads about "Let's keep in mind the picks YOU would have chosen, just to see if you are never wrong", which is totally dishonest 'cause even people who "bashes" Timmins aren't saying he has to be totally right. Same applies for the rest of management. So I don't get why'd we bash the fans for expressions opinions when we're not the ones dealing. And frankly, I have no idea who you are referring to as it's only a really small minority who were happy with the trade and ESPECIALLY happy because Gomez had just replaced Koivu.

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07-23-2012, 11:59 AM
  #813
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Originally Posted by Rosso Scuderia View Post
Seriously, you are arguing that Koivu is not God? Is that why you call Koivu "overrated"? Really? You thought that "Le Tricolore" is really comparing Koivu to god? .. Price was called Jesus Price not long ago.. and people were bowing Halak like a god.. Did you get upset too??

Winning the cup is not the only accomplishment in hockey. What about carrying the Olympics torch? What about winning the first IIFH World Championship for Finland? What about 4 Olympics medals? What about being the first European Captain ... and also being the longest-serving captain for the most prestigious hockey team in the world? Is that what you call "hasn't accomplished anything"?

Laugh at my argument all you want so you can feel superior but I'm not the one bringing the number of children a guy has to defend him or compared Koivu with legends which none of us did, except you. If you need to put words like "Saku is the best ever of all time" in our mouths then have fun, it does make us look stupid and you smart.

Anyway, there's a reason why Koivu was our captain, there's a reason why Koivu is the captain of team Finland (over future HOF Selanne), there's a reason why he's an assistant captain for the Ducks, there's a reason why he will be carrying to Olympics torch. Maybe not for you, but when Koivu will retire, he will remember as a warrior, a professional, a leader and a rolemodel. If he wins the cup before his retirement, it would just a big bonus but for me, I can already tell that he had a great and successful career.
Not diminishuing what he did....but he wasn't the first Euro Captain in the NHL and wasn't the longest serving captain in the Habs history....No doubt that he accomplished a lot in his international career. But whether it's his fault or not, we can't say he did in the NHL aside from being a very good player, which is more than a whole lot of people can say.

Where I totally agree with you is that the Cup isn't everything. Gilbert Dionne has NOT been a more useful player to the Habs than Marcel Dionne was to the Kings solely based on the Cup. Clearly not. But whether we like it or not, and again, whethe it's his fault or not, the end-result as far as team success does count for quite a lot. His own personal achievement then soften the blow that the unsuccesful era he was in might say. Yet, will be remembered as a warrior and a true competitor. Again, we could argue the "leader" part as far as on and off the ice. But no doubt that he had to be amongst the ones that just never took a shift off. And that's pretty remarkable. But can't be jersey retirement material as far as what happened in his career with us. And especially when you start to look around in this franchise and see that there are still very good players that also won't see their jersey up even with cups in their pocket. And again, Cups aren't everything. But unfortunately, perception is that it is. And reality ALSO suggest that a player you use to call a loser, well you might not be able to do so in quite some time after he just won a cup.

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07-23-2012, 12:13 PM
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Nope. Not that obvious. I keep hearing for some that we shouldn't be hard on Timmins 'cause the draft is a crapshoot. Yet, I also keep saying threads about "Let's keep in mind the picks YOU would have chosen, just to see if you are never wrong", which is totally dishonest 'cause even people who "bashes" Timmins aren't saying he has to be totally right. Same applies for the rest of management. So I don't get why'd we bash the fans for expressions opinions when we're not the ones dealing. And frankly, I have no idea who you are referring to as it's only a really small minority who were happy with the trade and ESPECIALLY happy because Gomez had just replaced Koivu.
The reason we should praise Timmins is that he is, at worst, the 5th best scout in the NHL during his tenure, and he is the best by several metrics. He did this in spite of having a single top-5 draft picks. Bashing Timmins is equivalent to a spoiled brat bashing his father because his father bought him a BMW when he wanted a Porsche. I would tell him to stop whining and to be content he has the nicest car of any of his friends.

I wasn't posting on this forum back in 2009. So I don't know which fans on this board were in the right and which were in the wrong. However, I am a professional scientist by training and I subscribe to the life view that people who are frequently correct should be more frequently trusted, and that people who are frequently wrong should be regarded as less trustworthy. Each of us have brains hardwired a certain wire due to genetics and life experience. We analyze the world via a model. If somebody is always wrong, then there's something wrong with the model with which they view the world.

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07-23-2012, 12:18 PM
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Not diminishuing what he did....but he wasn't the first Euro Captain in the NHL and wasn't the longest serving captain in the Habs history....No doubt that he accomplished a lot in his international career. But whether it's his fault or not, we can't say he did in the NHL aside from being a very good player, which is more than a whole lot of people can say.

Where I totally agree with you is that the Cup isn't everything. Gilbert Dionne has NOT been a more useful player to the Habs than Marcel Dionne was to the Kings solely based on the Cup. Clearly not. But whether we like it or not, and again, whethe it's his fault or not, the end-result as far as team success does count for quite a lot. His own personal achievement then soften the blow that the unsuccesful era he was in might say. Yet, will be remembered as a warrior and a true competitor. Again, we could argue the "leader" part as far as on and off the ice. But no doubt that he had to be amongst the ones that just never took a shift off. And that's pretty remarkable. But can't be jersey retirement material as far as what happened in his career with us. And especially when you start to look around in this franchise and see that there are still very good players that also won't see their jersey up even with cups in their pocket. And again, Cups aren't everything. But unfortunately, perception is that it is. And reality ALSO suggest that a player you use to call a loser, well you might not be able to do so in quite some time after he just won a cup.
I meant first European and longest-serving captain (tied with Beliveau) for the Habs.

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07-23-2012, 12:18 PM
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Not diminishuing what he did....but he wasn't the first Euro Captain in the NHL and wasn't the longest serving captain in the Habs history....No doubt that he accomplished a lot in his international career. But whether it's his fault or not, we can't say he did in the NHL aside from being a very good player, which is more than a whole lot of people can say.

Where I totally agree with you is that the Cup isn't everything. Gilbert Dionne has NOT been a more useful player to the Habs than Marcel Dionne was to the Kings solely based on the Cup. Clearly not. But whether we like it or not, and again, whethe it's his fault or not, the end-result as far as team success does count for quite a lot. His own personal achievement then soften the blow that the unsuccesful era he was in might say. Yet, will be remembered as a warrior and a true competitor. Again, we could argue the "leader" part as far as on and off the ice. But no doubt that he had to be amongst the ones that just never took a shift off. And that's pretty remarkable. But can't be jersey retirement material as far as what happened in his career with us. And especially when you start to look around in this franchise and see that there are still very good players that also won't see their jersey up even with cups in their pocket. And again, Cups aren't everything. But unfortunately, perception is that it is. And reality ALSO suggest that a player you use to call a loser, well you might not be able to do so in quite some time after he just won a cup.
I'm pretty sure his sentence was off but he meant first euro captain of the habs. Also, in regards to longest serving. He's tied with beliveau in number of years at 10. However, we had a lockout, he was captain during that time, but obviously not on the ice.

As for the rest. Plenty of NHL legends never won a cup or an olympic medal and get jersey's retired and are HHOF candidates.

Look at Roenick, no olympic medals, not even bronze. No individual scoring award, no cup, etc...

He's in the US HHOF, his number is retired by the coyotes.

Sure, Roenick>>>Koivu, no question. I'm just pointing out that even some kind of team success isn't always the key part of being a great player.

Koivu's done his share for this organization. I don't think any realistical fan expects a jersey retirement. Well, maybe if he played his entire career year his chances would go up but he didn't so irrelevant.

I just hope he gets to stay with the habs as a euro scout or something. An offer out of respect, that's pretty much all I could ask for.

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07-23-2012, 12:21 PM
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....

As a person - seen through the media glare and public projections and downright "mah gut says so" phone calls to sports radio? Sure thing.

As players, not so. Very similar career ppg, but I'd give it to Ribeiro for staying healthier generally and because Koivu got a lion's share of icetime from his second season on while Ribeiro toiled on the lower lines for the first half of his career.
I didn't bother reading everything cuz i'd have to backtrack too much but Ribeiro's prime is in the new nhl, koivu's was in the old. If both were 17-18 now and at the draft, I pick Koivu everytime.

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07-23-2012, 12:41 PM
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Nobody can deny that Koivu was clutch in the playoffs, even though his teams never made it past the second round, but what about the regular season?

He led the team in scoring four times during his tenure here, and the Habs missed the playoffs during every one of those seasons. This is one of the reasons I've always thought that the Canadiens' reliance of him as the team's no. 1 center was one of the main reasons for it's mediocrity during that time.

He just wasn't that good.

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07-23-2012, 12:47 PM
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Nobody can deny that Koivu was clutch in the playoffs, even though his teams never made it past the second round, but what about the regular season?

He led the team in scoring four times during his tenure here, and the Habs missed the playoffs during every one of those seasons. This is one of the reasons I've always thought that the Canadiens' reliance of him as the team's no. 1 center was one of the main reasons for it's mediocrity during that time.

He just wasn't that good.
He was a playmaking center whose most consistent 'good' line was having Ryder and Higgins on his wings. Speaks volumes. Nobody is saying he was a superstar. Habs had much bigger problems than koivu at almost every other position for a long time, so heaping the blame on Koivu because he was the best we had, that's just retarded.

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07-23-2012, 12:51 PM
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Nobody can deny that Koivu was clutch in the playoffs, even though his teams never made it past the second round, but what about the regular season?

He led the team in scoring four times during his tenure here, and the Habs missed the playoffs during every one of those seasons. This is one of the reasons I've always thought that the Canadiens' reliance of him as the team's no. 1 center was one of the main reasons for it's mediocrity during that time.

He just wasn't that good.
did you check out the wingers he had to work with???

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07-23-2012, 12:52 PM
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He was a playmaking center whose most consistent 'good' line was having Ryder and Higgins on his wings. Speaks volumes. Nobody is saying he was a superstar. Habs had much bigger problems than koivu at almost every other position for a long time, so heaping the blame on Koivu because he was the best we had, that's just retarded.
I think it's management's fault really. How do you put him in a position he isn't suited for? I mean, if we're expecting a legacy out of plekanec, again we'll be disappointed. The reality is, he is also a 1B or 2A and if we hadn't drafted galchenyuk and had no plans to upgrade, it would be another era of being average. At the time, as good as koivu was, injuries caught up to him and his small stature in old NHL wasn't easy. They had to support him better but didn't. I'd even go as far as admitting they should've made him part of the supporting cast and got a legit #1. Not a shot at koivu but hard to maintain that type of fearless style at his size against top matchups.

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07-23-2012, 01:16 PM
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Koivu was our Tavares except we never protected him or gave him any help. He got worn down and beaten trying to drag this mess of a team by himself. I will not go into the utterly shameful treatment from the fans and managment at the end and during his tenure.

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07-23-2012, 01:29 PM
  #823
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As a person - seen through the media glare and public projections and downright "mah gut says so" phone calls to sports radio? Sure thing.

As players, not so. Very similar career ppg, but I'd give it to Ribeiro for staying healthier generally and because Koivu got a lion's share of icetime from his second season on while Ribeiro toiled on the lower lines for the first half of his career.
I'm not talking about as a person, I find Koivu much more likeable but I'd take him over Ribeiro as a player easily.

Ribeiro is a great playmaker and very skilled, he's also far softer than Koivu and doesn't have his work rate. The fact that their career PPG is similar while Koivu had much greater two way responsibility is telling.

Ribeiro might have been underused early in his career but he had a good situation in Dallas that got the most out of him, Koivu during his prime had to carry garbage.

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07-23-2012, 02:46 PM
  #824
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Koivu was our Tavares except we never protected him or gave him any help. He got worn down and beaten trying to drag this mess of a team by himself. I will not go into the utterly shameful treatment from the fans and managment at the end and during his tenure.
That is such a load. He was the most popular Hab by far during his tenure here and made a very very confortable living as well. The Koivu Kult is really over the top, and it wouldn't be half that bad if some of it's members didn't use at as an excuse to attack other fans, management and players.

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07-23-2012, 02:50 PM
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Koivu was our Tavares except we never protected him or gave him any help. He got worn down and beaten trying to drag this mess of a team by himself. I will not go into the utterly shameful treatment from the fans and managment at the end and during his tenure.
Pretty much. Speaking of tavares, really hope NYI gets competitive soon. Hate to have such a talent go to waste.

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