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Poile

View Poll Results: Will Poile be fired before the season starts?
Yes 13 15.29%
No 72 84.71%
Voters: 85. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-22-2012, 08:18 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by predfan24 View Post
I agree with this. You can make all the excuses you want but this is a business. You can give a million reasons why Radulov didn't work out, AK didn't work out, Suter didn't work out, Weber didn't work out. If they all leave in the same offseason you should lose your job I don't care if you are Scotty Bowman.
UNLESS Poile is working within annoying constraints from ownership, and therefore won't ever be fired because he's doing what they're telling him to do.

In which case we're all effed.

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07-23-2012, 01:51 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Hoarding Assets View Post
3 years 7 mil/year vs 7.8 or whatever the **** it was/arbitration/hurt feelings ... yes Poile deserves hate/heat
Weber wasn't going to sign at 7 years and 8 mil per.

Poile offered 7 x 7.

Weber and his agent wanted 3 x 7.

Sure we wouldn't be going through this right now but we'd face it again in 3 years.

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07-23-2012, 01:56 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by vandyfan84 View Post
Weber wasn't going to sign at 7 years and 8 mil per.

Poile offered 7 x 7.

Weber and his agent wanted 3 x 7.

Sure we wouldn't be going through this right now but we'd face it again in 3 years.
I could've lived with the "prove it to me Poile" contract

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07-23-2012, 02:11 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Hoarding Assets View Post
3 years 7 mil/year vs 7.8 or whatever the **** it was/arbitration/hurt feelings ... yes Poile deserves hate/heat
I think he was awarded 7.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by vandyfan84 View Post
Weber wasn't going to sign at 7 years and 8 mil per.

Poile offered 7 x 7.

Weber and his agent wanted 3 x 7.

Sure we wouldn't be going through this right now but we'd face it again in 3 years.
Poile wanted at least 5 weber wanted at most 3 at that point you have to go to arbitration or know a lot about the new cba, which nobody did.

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07-23-2012, 04:05 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Hoarding Assets View Post
3 years 7 mil/year vs 7.8 or whatever the **** it was/arbitration/hurt feelings ... yes Poile deserves hate/heat
so you'd have though it was just peachy to have weber for two more years(after this past season) and then lost him for nothing like Suter??


last summer everyone agreed the worst possible outcome would have been a 2 year deal for Weber... but now in retrospect ytou think three would have been a goood deal??


haters gonna hate....

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07-23-2012, 04:06 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
sometimes you have to take what you can get.

SK isnt going to give up UFA years for what he assumes will be a salary thats a bargain if he keeps improving.. Poile isnt going to throw out a big enough number to get him to commit more than 2 years... so the solution that works for both is 2 yrs at reasonable money... SK certainly wont starve, and poile wont be in a bind due to this deal...

I like it... especially since Im not sure SK will ever be the 30 goal scorer we wish he was...
Which we all wish Poile would have done with Weber last year, a 3 year window is better than a rebuild, IMHO.

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07-23-2012, 04:12 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
Which we all wish Poile would have done with Weber last year, a 3 year window is better than a rebuild, IMHO.
And we should have drafted Datsyuk and Zetterburg in the 4th round of their respective drafts .... hindsight is always 20/10 or better.

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07-23-2012, 04:23 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
And we should have drafted Datsyuk and Zetterburg in the 4th round of their respective drafts .... hindsight is always 20/10 or better.
agreed, but we pay Poile big bucks expecting him to manage these situations so we don't have to look at things in hindsight. Isn't that what you expect from a great GM?

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07-23-2012, 04:40 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
agreed, but we pay Poile big bucks expecting him to manage these situations so we don't have to look at things in hindsight. Isn't that what you expect from a great GM?
The ability to foresee a potential offer sheet is one thing ... foreseeing one that is 61.8% "signing bonus", almost twice the max annual salary due in the span of 49 weeks, more bonus money than Sidney Crosby makes total in the first six years of his contract .... that is asking nearly the impossible. Read what Gillis had to say on the subject.

Nobody predicted an offer like this one. There is nothing close to a precedent for it. 92% of the first four years' pay, 61.8% of the total, in the form of a bonus dwarfs even Brad Richards's contract. Saying this deal structure was foreseeable is as much of a revisionist load as predicting 9/11, Pearl Harbor, and the Miracle on Ice before hand.

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07-23-2012, 04:43 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
The ability to foresee a potential offer sheet is one thing ... foreseeing one that is 61.8% "signing bonus", almost twice the max annual salary due in the span of 49 weeks, more bonus money than Sidney Crosby makes total in the first six years of his contract .... that is asking nearly the impossible. Read what Gillis had to say on the subject.

Nobody predicted an offer like this one. There is nothing close to a precedent for it. 92% of the first four years' pay, 61.8% of the total, in the form of a bonus dwarfs even Brad Richards's contract. Saying this deal structure was foreseeable is as much of a revisionist load as predicting 9/11, Pearl Harbor, and the Miracle on Ice before hand.
You're lying to yourself if you believe that...


Go look at the Weber threads last year on the main boards were posters were saying they were hoping their team would do this very thing. If it crossed the mind of hf posters I certainly hope it crossed Poile's mind.

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07-23-2012, 04:47 PM
  #86
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I think 101st's point is that the amount of bonuses makes this one a tough pill to swallow. Having a contract front loaded is one thing, but having a contract that is not only front loaded but front loaded with uninsurable bonus money like this one is was never discussed from what I remember. Also, if memory serves the majority of the people calling for a front loaded deal stopped somewhere in the $10 range for the first few years, not $14m, $13m of which is bonus money.

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07-23-2012, 04:51 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
You're lying to yourself if you believe that...


Go look at the Weber threads last year on the main boards were posters were saying they were hoping their team would do this very thing. If it crossed the mind of hf posters I certainly hope it crossed Poile's mind.
I've yet to come across a single offer proposal here that matches what Snider put out there. If I missed it .. great ... but then again HF posters aren't the greatest when it comes to accurately predicting moves or valuing trades. Look at what gets posted for must have returns for every big name player ... like say Rick Nash ... vs what they actually bring in return.

Name one contract across the league with more than half of the payment due to a player in the form of a signing bonus. Name one that puts 92% of the pay in that form across the first four years. I'll save you the time ... they don't exist. This is an unprecedented blast from way beyond left field. Even Gillis was confident the Preds would match any realistic offer they could make.


Last edited by ThirdManIn: 07-24-2012 at 10:32 AM. Reason: a little too much
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07-23-2012, 05:43 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
Which we all wish Poile would have done with Weber last year, a 3 year window is better than a rebuild, IMHO.
not me... I would have maybe settled for 4 years, but three(one of which was last year) is not enough to justify a Suter-like departure

lets put it another way... would you now give philly back their 4 draft picks to have weber for 2 more years and then lose him to the Flyers for nothing? Or lose him now and get at least some compensation, which can presumably be flipped for assets...

in retrospect, the best thing would have been for Poile to have let Weber shop for offer sheets last summer(which is apparently what he was planning)... they might have been high but I doubt they would have approached these numbers... but apparently the owners werent yet in a position to open the wallets so poile chose arbitration to forestall that....

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07-23-2012, 06:29 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
I've yet to come across a single offer proposal here that matches what Snider put out there. If I missed it .. great ... but then again HF posters aren't the greatest when it comes to accurately predicting moves or valuing trades. Look at what gets posted for must have returns for every big name player ... like say Rick Nash ... vs what they actually bring in return.

Name one contract across the league with more than half of the payment due to a player in the form of a signing bonus. Name one that puts 92% of the pay in that form across the first four years. I'll save you the time ... they don't exist. This is an unprecedented blast from way beyond left field. Even Gillis was confident the Preds would match any realistic offer they could make.
People on here last summer were predicting a team would come in and sign Weber to an offer with huge up front money, even before the Predators took him to arbitration, I'm sorry if it surprised you. Now the amount and structure are huge, but that's what they were saying, huge upfront money with large signing bonuses, exactly what happened. And they were saying this without the benefit of hindsight.

You can say Poile should not have expected this but this hockey community did.

Maybe I expect too much.


Last edited by ThirdManIn: 07-24-2012 at 10:31 AM.
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07-23-2012, 07:01 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by triggrman View Post

People on here last summer were predicting a team would come in and sign Weber to an offer with huge up front money, even before the Predators took him to arbitration, I'm sorry if it surprised you. Now the amount and structure are huge, but that's what they were saying, huge upfront money with large signing bonuses, exactly what happened. And they were saying this without the benefit of hindsight.

You can say Poile should not have expected this but this hockey community did.

Maybe I expect too much.
I'll vouch for that, nobody said "They'll make give him $26M in signing bonus in the first calendar year". But many people on HF did say that if a team signed him to an offer sheet that it would likely be heavily front-loaded to make it difficult for the Preds to match.


Last edited by ULF_55: 07-24-2012 at 07:42 AM. Reason: QE
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07-23-2012, 07:09 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
People on here last summer were predicting a team would come in and sign Weber to an offer with huge up front money, even before the Predators took him to arbitration, I'm sorry if it surprised you. Now the amount and structure are huge, but that's what they were saying, huge upfront money with large signing bonuses, exactly what happened. And they were saying this without the benefit of hindsight.

You can say Poile should not have expected this but this hockey community did.

Maybe I expect too much.
The funny thing is last year "huge up front money" meant the Richards deal. This summer, that term meant the Suter and Parise deals. Neither of those comes close to the offer Weber accepted. Huge just got supersized. NOBODY I've seen predicted $52,000,000 in uninsurable bonuses in the first four years alone (more than Parise and Suter combined, 185% the total bonus Richards receives) ... plus another $16,000,000 in bonuses across seasons five and six.

Maybe I should speak in total generalities and claim to be correct no matter what. It worked for Cleo ... until her psychic business went under. Comparing "huge up front money" of every deal prior to this offer is like comparing a M-80 to what we dropped on Nagasaki ... after all, both went boom.


Last edited by ThirdManIn: 07-24-2012 at 10:32 AM. Reason: response is irrelevant now
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07-23-2012, 07:45 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
The funny thing is last year "huge up front money" meant the Richards deal. This summer, that term meant the Suter and Parise deals. Neither of those comes close to the offer Weber accepted. Huge just got supersized. NOBODY I've seen predicted $52,000,000 in uninsurable bonuses in the first four years alone (more than Parise and Suter combined, 185% the total bonus Richards receives) ... plus another $16,000,000 in bonuses across seasons five and six.

Maybe I should speak in total generalities and claim to be correct no matter what. It worked for Cleo ... until her psychic business went under. Comparing "huge up front money" of every deal prior to this offer is like comparing a M-80 to what we dropped on Nagasaki ... after all, both went boom.
Does it really matter if it's Richards money vs the current deal? It's really the fact that It was allowed to get to this point.

It could have been $900,000,000,000 in bonuses up front or $10M... it doesn't matter what the specific numbers are, it's a matter of everyone saw an offer sheet that would be difficult for the Preds to match. It's the GM's job to avoid his best player from making it to free agency, and doubly to avoid having him signed to an offer sheet. Most would say it's also his job to avoid taking his best player to arbitration.

I'd go as far as saying that most fans expect their GM to make the most of his assets, retain his top-end talent. There are closed-door facts and figures that we will never (and probably should never) know, there are limitations that the GM works with including a lot of situations that are out of his control. These guys have one of the most coveted jobs in the world, it's a highly visible position that is judged on results.

It's not necessarily fair, these guys are usually pretty good guys who are doing their best, putting in long hours, working against the odds and many times striking out and landing on their face. If you look hard enough you can make an excuse for every failure by a GM... but this is a different world, it's based on results, no matter how you got there it's the end result that matters. That's what Poile is judged on, it doesn't matter how fair/unfair he was treated in the process, or what he had to work with. It's just the business of pro sports.

So far Poile's results have been mediocre in the best years and appear to be declining with each new obstacle throw in his path. It starts and ends at his feet. Most of us realize this and deal with it.


Last edited by ThirdManIn: 07-24-2012 at 10:32 AM. Reason: quote
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07-23-2012, 07:49 PM
  #93
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Does it really matter if it's Richards money vs the current deal? It's really the fact that It was allowed to get to this point.

It could have been $900,000,000,000 in bonuses up front or $10M... it doesn't matter what the specific numbers are, it's a matter of everyone saw an offer sheet that would be difficult for the Preds to match. It's the GM's job to avoid his best player from making it to free agency, and doubly to avoid having him signed to an offer sheet. Most would say it's also his job to avoid taking his best player to arbitration.

I'd go as far as saying that most fans expect their GM to make the most of his assets, retain his top-end talent. There are closed-door facts and figures that we will never (and probably should never) know, there are limitations that the GM works with including a lot of situations that are out of his control. These guys have one of the most coveted jobs in the world, it's a highly visible position that is judged on results.

It's not necessarily fair, these guys are usually pretty good guys who are doing their best, putting in long hours, working against the odds and many times striking out and landing on their face. If you look hard enough you can make an excuse for every failure by a GM... but this is a different world, it's based on results, no matter how you got there it's the end result that matters. That's what Poile is judged on, it doesn't matter how fair/unfair he was treated in the process, or what he had to work with. It's just the business of pro sports.

So far Poile's results have been mediocre in the best years and appear to be declining with each new obstacle throw in his path. It starts and ends at his feet. Most of us realize this and deal with it.
What limitations on structure is Poile operating within? It's a very simple question yet holds so many obvious ramifications when looking at this summer's deals to date.

It also doesn't matter at all what we rant about Poile. All that matters is what his bosses think. IF they think he squandered opportunities when they feel sufficient resources were provided, he'll be gone. If they feel he did the best with what they gave him to work with, he'll remain. Pretty simple.

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07-23-2012, 07:53 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
What limitations on structure is Poile operating within? It's a very simple question yet holds so many obvious ramifications when looking at this summer's deals to date.
You're still stuck on the current offer sheet, and giving a pass for letting it get to this point in the first place. I think we all agree on the difficulties and limitations face by the offer sheet and most would understand why we didn't match. But the big stink is that Weber was allowed to reach the point of even receiving offer sheets at all.

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07-23-2012, 07:59 PM
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You're still stuck on the current offer sheet, and giving a pass for letting it get to this point in the first place. I think we all agree on the difficulties and limitations face by the offer sheet and most would understand why we didn't match. But the big stink is that Weber was allowed to reach the point of even receiving offer sheets at all.
It isn't just the offer sheet. It's the Suter negotiations as well. We hear he agreed to length of contract and total money in November, yet no word ever of contract structure. Is it Poile failing to maximize what the owners authorize? Is it the owners willing to pay similar total dollar amounts but unable to front load as much as players want with CBA uncertainty? Is it a combination or something else all together?

Poile and the owners can throw 14 year, $110mil dollar deals at players all day long but if it isn't structured the way certain players want they simply won't sign. That isn't a matter of unwillingness to spend but of working out a structure where the player and team can agree.

If Poile is working within his boss's guidance, his job is safe no matter how much HF rants and vents.

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07-23-2012, 08:01 PM
  #96
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Like I said, it's not fair, but we can only judge him on what we know. We're never going to know what goes on behind closed doors.

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07-23-2012, 08:05 PM
  #97
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You're still stuck on the current offer sheet, and giving a pass for letting it get to this point in the first place. I think we all agree on the difficulties and limitations face by the offer sheet and most would understand why we didn't match. But the big stink is that Weber was allowed to reach the point of even receiving offer sheets at all.
Definitely agree. If we couldn't match ANY offer sheet, then they shouldn't have said they could and nor should it have ever gotten to this point.

edit: just realized this is the SK signing thread. the hell?

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07-23-2012, 08:08 PM
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Like I said, it's not fair, but we can only judge him on what we know. We're never going to know what goes on behind closed doors.
The indicators are that the owners never authorized a deal with this much front loading. If there was such authorization, why wait to accept? If Poile is screwing up in his boss's eyes, why is he still employed? Judgment in the absence of fact is more in line with Tom Smykowski's jump to conclusions mat than assessment.

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07-23-2012, 08:42 PM
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You're still stuck on the current offer sheet, and giving a pass for letting it get to this point in the first place. I think we all agree on the difficulties and limitations face by the offer sheet and most would understand why we didn't match. But the big stink is that Weber was allowed to reach the point of even receiving offer sheets at all.
That was Weber's choice not to sign with Nashville and you can't do nothing about it.

You all questioning Poile's decision to take him to Arb last year.

It was necessary, other wise Weber would receive same offer sheet last year...


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07-23-2012, 08:54 PM
  #100
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That was Weber's choice not to sign with Nashville and you can't do nothing about it.
You make Weber want to sign here. It's the one thing you're paid extremely well to do.

This isn't Joel Ward wanted to cash in on a good playoff series, wish him luck on his new team. This is quite possibly THE best player the franchise will likely ever own, whether you or I believe it's fair, a GM should be tied to his marquee players. Poile failed to retain Suter and is on the verge of losing Weber, this is after he has been compensated millions of dollars each year to recruit and retain talent like Suter and Weber.

On almost any other team Poile is out the door, here he's lucky because the owners have already stated that they are business men only and the hockey side is all on Poile. Now the owners are the only ones who know what tools Poile has to work with, but as long as he's got enough money to make competitive offers (and they did say we'd be a cap team), then it's Poile's job to convince his franchise defensemen that his city, team and contract are the right ones for them.

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