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07-23-2012, 10:37 AM
  #151
AaronTrieu
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Not surprised, but is pretty harsh and other large programs are gonna benefit from the extra recruits they are getting. Sucks for the kids and ex-players though.

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07-23-2012, 11:07 AM
  #152
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Not surprised, but is pretty harsh and other large programs are gonna benefit from the extra recruits they are getting. Sucks for the kids and ex-players though.
And kids that wanted to go there.

I didn't read through here, but I'm sure someone probably said this and got ripped. I feel like the NCAA getting involved is a joke, and trivializes the situation. The people involved needed to be criminally prosecuted. I know it's a tough situation, and the NCAA is in a weird position, but I feel like this is so far beyond them, and not really related to athletics.

If it was an Engineering professor doing this, and the school covered it up, do they suspend the Engineering program? It's not exactly the same because football is an ancillary part of the university, but it's kind of a similar idea.

I just feel like many people who were as unaware as all of us are paying the price for the absolute lack of judgement of a few. If the officers of a company are stealing money the go after the officers, not the employees.

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07-23-2012, 11:35 AM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
And kids that wanted to go there.

I didn't read through here, but I'm sure someone probably said this and got ripped. I feel like the NCAA getting involved is a joke, and trivializes the situation. The people involved needed to be criminally prosecuted. I know it's a tough situation, and the NCAA is in a weird position, but I feel like this is so far beyond them, and not really related to athletics.

If it was an Engineering professor doing this, and the school covered it up, do they suspend the Engineering program? It's not exactly the same because football is an ancillary part of the university, but it's kind of a similar idea.


I just feel like many people who were as unaware as all of us are paying the price for the absolute lack of judgement of a few. If the officers of a company are stealing money the go after the officers, not the employees.
how much money do you think football has made PSU? I agree that it sucks that the current kids have to suffer the wrath of the NCAA. I hope that they have a free out to go where they want without waiting a year.

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07-23-2012, 11:37 AM
  #154
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I'm fine with everything but the scholarship stuff. They shouldn't have touched that. The fine and bowl ban was enough, as well as wiping out the wins. Lack of scholarships hurts the players most of all; those guys put in a lot of work/pain/effort and other people make a LOT of money from their work. They can't receive any monetary compensation. It's only fair that they get badass scholarships. Do not like that at all.

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07-23-2012, 11:46 AM
  #155
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The funny thing is they put PSU on academic probation. Penn St has one of the highest student athlete graduation rates of any program, lots of academic all americans.

While people associated with the program did commit a crime, it was not related or involved any players on the team.

The NCAA got caught up in the media storm and felt they had to do something. So next time any person associated with a sports program commits a crime unrelated to recruiting or current players will the NCAA punish them as well?

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07-23-2012, 11:50 AM
  #156
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how much money do you think football has made PSU? I agree that it sucks that the current kids have to suffer the wrath of the NCAA. I hope that they have a free out to go where they want without waiting a year.
The fine I agree with. I know that'll have an effect on the school as a whole, but I also assume PSU has a **** ton of money. I don't know I'm just hung up on the wrong people paying for the crime. Those involved should burn, preferably on a stake, but I'm just not sure what these sanctions accomplish, other than the NCAA saying you don't deserve a football program.

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I'm fine with everything but the scholarship stuff. They shouldn't have touched that. The fine and bowl ban was enough, as well as wiping out the wins. Lack of scholarships hurts the players most of all; those guys put in a lot of work/pain/effort and other people make a LOT of money from their work. They can't receive any monetary compensation. It's only fair that they get badass scholarships. Do not like that at all.
I would have liked to see them keep the bowl game for the kids, but not let PSU get any revenue. Put it into a fund for abused children or something like that. I think there were ways to punish the school, with doing the least amount of damage to the kids that go there.

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07-23-2012, 12:10 PM
  #157
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I would have liked to see them keep the bowl game for the kids, but not let PSU get any revenue. Put it into a fund for abused children or something like that. I think there were ways to punish the school, with doing the least amount of damage to the kids that go there.
I like that idea.

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07-23-2012, 02:20 PM
  #158
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How did the NCAA move rather quickly to put out this PSU sentence and yet they still haven't deliberated anything for the Yahoo! Sports/Miami Hurricanes probe?
Probably because someone from Miami sits on the NCAA infractions comittee.

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07-23-2012, 04:39 PM
  #159
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The funny thing is they put PSU on academic probation. Penn St has one of the highest student athlete graduation rates of any program, lots of academic all americans.

While people associated with the program did commit a crime, it was not related or involved any players on the team.

The NCAA got caught up in the media storm and felt they had to do something. So next time any person associated with a sports program commits a crime unrelated to recruiting or current players will the NCAA punish them as well?
A University of Virginia lacrosse player murdered his girlfriend two years ago and the NCAA didn't punish them (and he was actually involved in the athletic program unlike Sandusky). Penn State's punishments feel very selective and rash, which is what happens when people make decisions using their emotions instead of rationale.

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07-23-2012, 04:43 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by bambamcam4ever View Post
A University of Virginia lacrosse player murdered his girlfriend two years ago and the NCAA didn't punish them (and he was actually involved in the athletic program unlike Sandusky). Penn State's punishments feel very selective and rash, which is what happens when people make decisions using their emotions instead of rationale.
UVA didn't cover up the murder (which occurred in an apartment, not in athletic facilities), nor did additional murders occur thanks to their non-action.

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07-23-2012, 04:46 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by bambamcam4ever View Post
A University of Virginia lacrosse player murdered his girlfriend two years ago and the NCAA didn't punish them (and he was actually involved in the athletic program unlike Sandusky). Penn State's punishments feel very selective and rash, which is what happens when people make decisions using their emotions instead of rationale.
That's not a great example.

A better one is the 2003 Baylor case--in which the head coach got absolutely creamed for his role in interfering in a murder investigation of a basketball player by a former basketball player--but the school received relatively modest sanctions compared to PSU (and those were also about paying players under the table, etc., as opposed to "just" the murder investigation).

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07-23-2012, 06:39 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
That's not a great example.

A better one is the 2003 Baylor case--in which the head coach got absolutely creamed for his role in interfering in a murder investigation of a basketball player by a former basketball player--but the school received relatively modest sanctions compared to PSU (and those were also about paying players under the table, etc., as opposed to "just" the murder investigation).
While better than the UVA example, that still isn't a great comparison. The second the school found out he was canned and they moved forward. The school didn't cover it up for 10+ years. If all this was was Sandusky or an attempted cover up by Joe Pa, I'd agree. But the coaches and higher ups actively concealed it. That is what the punishment is for.

People need to stop talking about how it is unfair to punish PSU for Sandusky's actions. I don't know if people are saying it here, but people on ESPN have been saying it all morning (PSU students, reporters, etc.). That is not why they were punished. It was the actions of those in charge who chose to place their livelihood and the livelihood of the school/football program ahead of the safety of innocent children. It really makes the PSU community look ignorant and sad when they interview students about this and their response is related to Sandusky's actions.

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07-23-2012, 08:15 PM
  #163
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VERY interesting:

http://onwardstate.com/2012/07/23/es...d-of-trustees/

I'm starting to think there was an agenda here. The most important piece in here that I hadn't known was that Spanier was apparently regularly abused as a child.


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07-23-2012, 10:11 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
VERY interesting:

http://onwardstate.com/2012/07/23/es...d-of-trustees/

I'm starting to think there was an agenda here. The most important piece in here that I hadn't known was that Spanier was apparently regularly abused as a child.
If he was "persistantly abused" then there is all the more reason he should have done more than he did. Point of fact is that he was more afraid of angering Joe Paterno then he was of investigating this further.

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07-23-2012, 10:14 PM
  #165
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I see he's already trying to cover himself.

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07-23-2012, 11:04 PM
  #166
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NCAA overstepped their boundries here. They are pretty much destroying a community.

What if penn state offered an academic scholarship and the student happened to be really good at football and made it as a walk on. is this legit? haha

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07-23-2012, 11:57 PM
  #167
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NCAA overstepped their boundries here. They are pretty much destroying a community.

What if penn state offered an academic scholarship and the student happened to be really good at football and made it as a walk on. is this legit? haha
And PSU allowed people's lives to be destroyed with their (non)actions. I have no sympathy.

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07-24-2012, 02:13 AM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
The fine I agree with. I know that'll have an effect on the school as a whole, but I also assume PSU has a **** ton of money. I don't know I'm just hung up on the wrong people paying for the crime. Those involved should burn, preferably on a stake, but I'm just not sure what these sanctions accomplish, other than the NCAA saying you don't deserve a football program.

I would have liked to see them keep the bowl game for the kids, but not let PSU get any revenue. Put it into a fund for abused children or something like that. I think there were ways to punish the school, with doing the least amount of damage to the kids that go there.
The NCAA needed to send a message that there are things more important than football in this world, and Penn State had to be punished to send that message. If they let them keep their scholarships and football program intact, it would effectively be doing nothing more than saying that a decade of covering up sexual abuse isn't that big of a deal in the NCAA's mind.

And letting them keep playing and just donating gate revenue to charities also sends the wrong message, namely that throwing money at a problem after the fact instead of addressing it head on when it first arises is a-okay.

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07-24-2012, 05:29 AM
  #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
VERY interesting:

http://onwardstate.com/2012/07/23/es...d-of-trustees/

I'm starting to think there was an agenda here. The most important piece in here that I hadn't known was that Spanier was apparently regularly abused as a child.
Interesting for sure. I would like to know a couple things. 1) What is the gov't clearance for? 2) Why didn't he say anything earlier? (not regarding Sandusky, regarding the Freeh report) 3) If he was abused as a kid, why would it make a difference if he was told specifics or just about "horsing around" in the shower...as an abuse victim wouldn't a grown man "horsing around" in the shower with young boys set off some pretty big red flags?

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07-24-2012, 07:15 AM
  #170
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Originally Posted by No Fun Shogun View Post
The NCAA needed to send a message that there are things more important than football in this world, and Penn State had to be punished to send that message. If they let them keep their scholarships and football program intact, it would effectively be doing nothing more than saying that a decade of covering up sexual abuse isn't that big of a deal in the NCAA's mind.

And letting them keep playing and just donating gate revenue to charities also sends the wrong message, namely that throwing money at a problem after the fact instead of addressing it head on when it first arises is a-okay.
I disagree. The NCAA isn't the one that should be sending the message, the criminal justice system is the one that should be sending a message. The NCAA has always been a joke in my mind, and their involvement makes light of the gravity of the situation. The President, AD, any board members who knew should all be serving jail time with a 6'8" dude who hasn't seen a woman in at least a decade. That is how you send an actual message,...well minus the 6'8" dude part...not trying to pretend PSU football didn't exist for a decade by removing their wins.

That's like if you watched your friend kill someone, didn't report it, and covered for him. Then when the truth came out, all that happened was your old track records were abolished by your high school "OMG Noooooooo!!!"

All these things the NCAA handed down, asides from the fine, wind up affecting students who had nothing to do with this, and knew as little about the situation as you or I. How is it fair that a kid who has dedicated his life to football, but will never see the pros doesn't get a chance to play in a bowl game? What does that kid have to do with what happened? Why shouldn't someone get a scholarship if PSU was where they always wanted to go?

You say that donating revenue would just be throwing money at the problem, but all of the NCAA sanctions other than the wins revolve around money.... In fact the fine is actually going into a fund for abused children... All the NCAA is doing is taking money away from the college, so why couldn't they do that with harming the students as little as possible? I guess they thought that this was the way to do that, but I think there were other ways.

I'm not defending PSU in anything, I'm just saying that the NCAA's involvement and rulings just add to this strange, sad story.

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07-24-2012, 09:01 AM
  #171
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
I disagree. The NCAA isn't the one that should be sending the message, the criminal justice system is the one that should be sending a message. The NCAA has always been a joke in my mind, and their involvement makes light of the gravity of the situation. The President, AD, any board members who knew should all be serving jail time with a 6'8" dude who hasn't seen a woman in at least a decade. That is how you send an actual message,...well minus the 6'8" dude part...not trying to pretend PSU football didn't exist for a decade by removing their wins.

That's like if you watched your friend kill someone, didn't report it, and covered for him. Then when the truth came out, all that happened was your old track records were abolished by your high school "OMG Noooooooo!!!"

All these things the NCAA handed down, asides from the fine, wind up affecting students who had nothing to do with this, and knew as little about the situation as you or I. How is it fair that a kid who has dedicated his life to football, but will never see the pros doesn't get a chance to play in a bowl game? What does that kid have to do with what happened? Why shouldn't someone get a scholarship if PSU was where they always wanted to go?

You say that donating revenue would just be throwing money at the problem, but all of the NCAA sanctions other than the wins revolve around money.... In fact the fine is actually going into a fund for abused children... All the NCAA is doing is taking money away from the college, so why couldn't they do that with harming the students as little as possible? I guess they thought that this was the way to do that, but I think there were other ways.

I'm not defending PSU in anything, I'm just saying that the NCAA's involvement and rulings just add to this strange, sad story.
Using that logic, then no league should be involved in suspensions of players or coaches that break the law/their variants of personal conduct policies. Law enforcement is involved in it's avenue, prosecuting the offenders of crimes. The NCAA is involved in it's realm, in the private administration of a collective of collegiate athletic departments. As such, the NCAA totally has power to enforce its own standards on its member institutions, and they rightfully deemed that Penn State was acting unbecoming of an NCAA institution by covering up over a decade of sexual abuse.

And yes, it affects the individual students and fans that had nothing to do with it, but tough break. Just about every NCAA sanction negatively affects people that had nothing to do with the original transgressions. Just because Penn State was able to keep it silent for long enough for most of the folks that were involved in the cover-up to be gone by the time that news finally broke doesn't mean that the university should magically get off from NCAA ramnifications for their own actions, nor should the very real fact that the university will be dealing with score of civil and criminal investigations/court cases in the next several years.

The NCAA's decisions often do revolve around money, but in this circumstance they made the decision that the ultimate lesson that could be sent was sending a shock to Penn State's pocket books by the fine, loss of access to bowl games, and loss of scholarships to hopefully jolt the university awake into realizing the severity of the transgressions that were committed, which I'm not even confident that a significant portion of the fanbase even realizes fully.

Finally, as for the track example.... call me crazy, but if I was getting prosecuted for covering up a felony, the last thing on my mind would be decades' old records. Not to mention that if my coverup involved a murder on school grounds and my coverup lead to more murders on school grounds, then the high school in question actually would have pretty solid recourse in trying to erase me from the record books and never speaking of me again like a modern day Herostratus.

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07-24-2012, 09:09 AM
  #172
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This whole ordeal has been so disheartening for me. Joe Pa in the eyes of many including myself was an infallible icon that stood for a high standard of Morales and virtues that were hard to find in the college landscape. He was the first face on Pennsylvania's Mount Rushmore of sports figures, and now teh program he single handily built is in ruins because of this scandal. I Don't know if Penn State will ever be able to move past this.

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07-24-2012, 01:01 PM
  #173
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Originally Posted by No Fun Shogun View Post
Using that logic, then no league should be involved in suspensions of players or coaches that break the law/their variants of personal conduct policies. Law enforcement is involved in it's avenue, prosecuting the offenders of crimes. The NCAA is involved in it's realm, in the private administration of a collective of collegiate athletic departments. As such, the NCAA totally has power to enforce its own standards on its member institutions, and they rightfully deemed that Penn State was acting unbecoming of an NCAA institution by covering up over a decade of sexual abuse.

And yes, it affects the individual students and fans that had nothing to do with it, but tough break. Just about every NCAA sanction negatively affects people that had nothing to do with the original transgressions. Just because Penn State was able to keep it silent for long enough for most of the folks that were involved in the cover-up to be gone by the time that news finally broke doesn't mean that the university should magically get off from NCAA ramnifications for their own actions, nor should the very real fact that the university will be dealing with score of civil and criminal investigations/court cases in the next several years.
What? How do you get to no league should suspend people from what I said? That doesn't even make any sense in this situation since it wasn't a single player or coach who was the offender.

Secondly, about the NCAA's realm, the purpose of the NCAA is regulate athletics. This was not a case of paying recruits, or cheating, it was a criminal case. The athletics were indirectly related to the crime.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/...ns-dating-1998

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The NCAA, the chair said, had never gotten involved in punishing schools for criminal behavior.

"The criminal courts are perfectly capable of handling these situations," the former chair said. "This is a new phase and a new thing. They are getting into bad behavior that are somehow connected to those who work in the athletic department.

"This is an important precedent. And it should be taken with extreme care."
And if they're getting into regulating schools based on illegal actions of a few people, where is there sanctions for the Syracuse basketball program?

Thirdly, it's just a tough break that more people who are completely innocent have to be negatively impacted by Sandusky? Why should they have to brought into this? The damage done to them should be as little as possible. That is my entire point. The students/athletes had nothing to do with the crime, yet they have a lot to do with the punishment

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The NCAA's decisions often do revolve around money, but in this circumstance they made the decision that the ultimate lesson that could be sent was sending a shock to Penn State's pocket books by the fine, loss of access to bowl games, and loss of scholarships to hopefully jolt the university awake into realizing the severity of the transgressions that were committed, which I'm not even confident that a significant portion of the fanbase even realizes fully.
The NCAA's decisions always revolve around money. The shock was sent when this info leaked. Nothing the NCAA can do will be as damning as this story being everywhere, nor will it have as big an impact on those who truly deserve punishment as the criminal charges they should be convicted of.

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Finally, as for the track example.... call me crazy, but if I was getting prosecuted for covering up a felony, the last thing on my mind would be decades' old records. Not to mention that if my coverup involved a murder on school grounds and my coverup lead to more murders on school grounds, then the high school in question actually would have pretty solid recourse in trying to erase me from the record books and never speaking of me again like a modern day Herostratus.
You completely missed the point. Removing wins is meaningless, and acting like the games never took place is nonsensical for everyone who took part in them, or remembers them. All it does is trivialize the situation. That was the point.

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07-24-2012, 01:26 PM
  #174
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What? How do you get to no league should suspend people from what I said? That doesn't even make any sense in this situation since it wasn't a single player or coach who was the offender.
First of all, that's not what I said. You essentially said that the NCAA shouldn't get involved in this fiasco because law enforcement's already involved and that their mere involvement made light of the situation in some way, and I was just pointing out how ridiculous of an opinion that is.

Second.... what? An assistant coach (at the beginning)/individual continuously allowed to use Penn State athletics facilities was molesting/sexually assaulting kids and a coach and athletic director were involved in the cover up.

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Secondly, about the NCAA's realm, the purpose of the NCAA is regulate athletics. This was not a case of paying recruits, or cheating, it was a criminal case. The athletics were indirectly related to the crime.
It happened in university athletic facilities, the cover up involved several of the higher ups in the football program and athletic department, and everything spiraled out of control because the people that had the power to stop this and the moral obligation to do so didn't because they didn't want to hurt the image of their football program.

Penn State let their football program run amok by allowing a child rapist to continuously use their facilities to commit heinous felonies, and because Penn State twiddled their thumbs for over a decade, the NCAA had to get involved. Athletics were involved, just not players.

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And if they're getting into regulating schools based on illegal actions of a few people, where is there sanctions for the Syracuse basketball program?
You seriously don't see the difference between a single criminal hiding his own actions and an athletics department hiding the criminal actions of a member of their own?

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Thirdly, it's just a tough break that more people who are completely innocent have to be negatively impacted by Sandusky? Why should they have to brought into this? The damage done to them should be as little as possible. That is my entire point. The students/athletes had nothing to do with the crime, yet they have a lot to do with the punishment
Yes, it's a tough break. Innocent people suffered at SMU due to the death penalty and USC because of their punishment. But the NCAA needed to send the message that refusal to adhere to certain standards was intolerable. Penn State forged new grounds here because their actions were so reprehensible and repugnant that they defy common sense, and an absolute example needed to be made.

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The NCAA's decisions always revolve around money. The shock was sent when this info leaked. Nothing the NCAA can do will be as damning as this story being everywhere, nor will it have as big an impact on those who truly deserve punishment as the criminal charges they should be convicted of.
As opposed to Penn State, the NCAA apparently is more concerned with actually doing something than sitting around and hoping things get better through their own inaction. Penn State got shamed, whoop-de-doo. They did that to themselves, and it's not punishment enough for the actions (or inaction) they committed and lives they ruined.

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You completely missed the point. Removing wins is meaningless, and acting like the games never took place is nonsensical for everyone who took part in them, or remembers them. All it does is trivialize the situation. That was the point.
Okay, if it's meaningless, then why complain about it? If it was meaningless, it should be nothing more than a non-issue not even worthy of bringing up.

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07-24-2012, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by No Fun Shogun View Post
First of all, that's not what I said. You essentially said that the NCAA shouldn't get involved in this fiasco because law enforcement's already involved and that their mere involvement made light of the situation in some way, and I was just pointing out how ridiculous of an opinion that is.

Second.... what? An assistant coach (at the beginning)/individual continuously allowed to use Penn State athletics facilities was molesting/sexually assaulting kids and a coach and athletic director were involved in the cover up.

It happened in university athletic facilities, the cover up involved several of the higher ups in the football program and athletic department, and everything spiraled out of control because the people that had the power to stop this and the moral obligation to do so didn't because they didn't want to hurt the image of their football program.

Penn State let their football program run amok by allowing a child rapist to continuously use their facilities to commit heinous felonies, and because Penn State twiddled their thumbs for over a decade, the NCAA had to get involved. Athletics were involved, just not players.
First..ahhh yes it is what you said "Using that logic, then no league should be involved in suspensions of players or coaches that break the law/their variants of personal conduct policies."

And yes I know, all of those involved should burn. The problem is you cannot understand how to separate people from the program, and the NCAA is sanctioning those who were not involved.

The NCAA's purpose is to create a level playing field in athletics. This is indirectly related to athletics. Members of the football program were involved, that's it. No cheating, no paying kids, none of that other stupid stuff the NCAA likes to sanction people for. Which is also why I thought that their involvement kind of made light of the situation. They deal with absolutely ridiculous things like people buying players clothes, and the majority of people think that most of their rulings are a complete joke when you take into account how much money they make off of these kids.... This situation is so far beyond them

Furthermore, from the article you ignored: "This is unique and this kind of power has never been tested or tried," the former chair said. "It's unprecedented to have this extensive power. This has nothing to do with the purpose of the infractions process. Nevertheless, somehow (the NCAA president and executive board) have taken it on themselves to be a commissioner and to penalize a school for improper conduct."

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You seriously don't see the difference between a single criminal hiding his own actions and an athletics department hiding the criminal actions of a member of their own?

Yes, it's a tough break. Innocent people suffered at SMU due to the death penalty and USC because of their punishment. But the NCAA needed to send the message that refusal to adhere to certain standards was intolerable. Penn State forged new grounds here because their actions were so reprehensible and repugnant that they defy common sense, and an absolute example needed to be made.
There's a difference, but the NCAA has already set a precedent with this judgement, as the person who was formerly the chair of the NCAA Investigation Committee said.

Also:http://www.usatoday.com/sports/colle...ges/56372428/1

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"A college should never care more about protecting its reputation than it does about protecting children from child sexual abuse," he said at a Manhattan news conference with Allred.
If he was abusing boys on campus, then chances are someone would have known about it.

My entire point to this entire stupid debate is that innocent people should not be suffering. There are ways to affect the school, and the program with still keeping in mind the fact that the students, the players, and the majority of the coaches are completely innocent.


If the CEO and CFO are stealing money, they go to jail. The SEC doesn't take away the employees retirement plans and benefits. You know why? Because it doesn't make any damn sense to make people who had nothing to do with the situation pay for the crimes of other.

Quote:
As opposed to Penn State, the NCAA apparently is more concerned with actually doing something than sitting around and hoping things get better through their own inaction. Penn State got shamed, whoop-de-doo. They did that to themselves, and it's not punishment enough for the actions (or inaction) they committed and lives they ruined.
The NCAA is concerned about what they'd look like if they did nothing.

Quote:
Okay, if it's meaningless, then why complain about it? If it was meaningless, it should be nothing more than a non-issue not even worthy of bringing up.
You still do not get the point.

I'm just going to leave it at this:

I think that the people who committed these crimes should pay, and pay dearly. However, I don't believe the students, athletes, and prospective athletes should be made to suffer because of a handful of spineless, egocentric individuals.

You think the school should pay, and pay dearly, and whatever students are affected are collateral damage.

So can we just agree to disagree.

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