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NHL Free Agency Thread 7 (Legit Sources ONLY) Shane Doan visiting Montreal (Post 400)

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Old
07-23-2012, 02:31 PM
  #326
KawaYui
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
1) They still finished 8th and won the cup. They came from 14th in 08-09, to 6th the following year, to 7th, to 8th. I don't care what you think they are. Fact remains they finished 8th. I don't think we're a lottery team now, so adding Semin would make us more than just a bubble team, but that's irrelevant. As of last season, we are a lotto team, just like the Kings were 8th.

2) So what? Nashville didn't have a problem being considered contenders last year despite not spending a lot.

3) What bad contracts do the Oilers have? Horcoff? That's it. You think those teams purposely give out bad contracts? Carter didn't work in CLB because the guy didn't want to be there. Wiz got overpaid just like the majority of free agents. Those teams aren't obsessed with making the POs, they're just poorly managed.
I fail to see how signing Semin is a bad move. Really, you have not brought forth one argument for it. The guy would instantly improve this team. Your suggestion, in a nutshell, is to not improve our team so we can *hopefully* improve it even more later. Hopefully.
That's sound logic...

4) Let's just trade the whole team except Price and PK.
Great post, more complete than the one I posted above in the previous page

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07-23-2012, 02:34 PM
  #327
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IMO you have the wrong slant on Bourque and Kaberle. Bourque was acquired because Cammalleri wasn't doing his job and was mouthing off; the Habs also got a second rounder and a prospect in the deal. Kaberle was brought in because the Habs had a weak PP but still had a chance of making the playoffs. He was acquired at the price of dead wood in the person of Spacek rather than a promising prospect or a draft choice. Sure, those two are unpopular, but Gauthier wanted to salvage something from the season. I don't fault him for those deals or for unloading Gill. The draft choices may end up as part of the core.
The cammy deal was part reactionary, part blunder...
Gauthier had been pursuing Bourque for a while, obviously ignoring his inconsistent & declining play. When cammy spouted off, PG pulled the trigger.

No problem with moving cammy, but not properly shopping him was foolish, as was getting a long term contract on a player who has consistency and motivation issues.

Kaberle was another desperation move, that cost the team ~8M$ in cap space for a guy that, while able to accumulate pp points, has been given 6th dman ES ice time from 3 consecutive coaches.

Lots of ways to slant it, but like with the Gomez kool aid, eventually the overpaid underperforming assets Gauthier saddled us with will taste bitter to all.

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07-23-2012, 02:37 PM
  #328
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Imho as it stands its a bad trade for both teams ... CBJ's future should have been brighter after the trade, and from NY's point of view, I don't like nash's contract ... the trade makes them look better on paper, but center depth probably is their #1 issue right now. No way they win a cup without adding a good 2nd/3rd C.

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07-23-2012, 02:41 PM
  #329
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Saw an article today suggesting that Semin is still available because he's looking for a 7M$ pay day...

Sounds about right, and if so, very thankful that Bergie is staying far far away from that.

Does suck to see rangers and (maybe) flyers both adding elite talent...

We need to bd patient while MB cleans up the mess he inherited, but boy would it be nice to have that 15M$ tied up in Gomez/kaberle/Bourque going towards elite talent.

For 2013, I really hope to see perry hit the market, have a feeling MB would break the bank for him.

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07-23-2012, 02:44 PM
  #330
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Looks like Nash to the Rags.


http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=401276

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07-23-2012, 02:44 PM
  #331
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
1) They still finished 8th and won the cup. They came from 14th in 08-09, to 6th the following year, to 7th, to 8th. I don't care what you think they are. Fact remains they finished 8th. I don't think we're a lottery team now, so adding Semin would make us more than just a bubble team, but that's irrelevant. As of last season, we are a lotto team, just like the Kings were 8th.

2) So what? Nashville didn't have a problem being considered contenders last year despite not spending a lot.

3) What bad contracts do the Oilers have? Horcoff? That's it. You think those teams purposely give out bad contracts? Carter didn't work in CLB because the guy didn't want to be there. Wiz got overpaid just like the majority of free agents. Those teams aren't obsessed with making the POs, they're just poorly managed.
I fail to see how signing Semin is a bad move. Really, you have not brought forth one argument for it. The guy would instantly improve this team. Your suggestion, in a nutshell, is to not improve our team so we can *hopefully* improve it even more later. Hopefully.
That's sound logic...

4) Let's just trade the whole team except Price and PK.
1) LA was not a legitimate 8th place team last year. They didn't just win the Stanley Cup on some Cinderella run -- they dominated every single one of their opponents. I think they went 12-2 through the Western Conference. Does that sound like an 8th place team to you?

2) Nashville was not a cap floor team. I tell you the New York Islanders are a cap floor team and you respond by pointing out the Nashville Predators, who were several million dollars above the cap? They're quantitatively different. Islanders are a cap floor team who take on bad contracts to reach the cap floor. Predators can spend several million dollars above the cap floor, and have no need to take on bad contracts. Do you see the Predators taking on Visnovski because of his contract? Why not?

3) Edmonton only has Horcoff now because they were able to buy out Sourray. They had two bad contracts for a while due to their failed quest for 8th place. Now they are completing a proper rebuild. They have Nugent Hopkins, Hall, and Yakupov. They will soon be terrorizing the western conference. Their management the past few seasons has been excellent.

Semin is a bad move because he makes us a bubble team when what we need is a 1-year rebuild with surgical precision. 2012-2013 is possibly the best season in Habs history to have a 1-year rebuild with surgical precision.

- We have new management with a free pass to have a 1-year tank.
- We're already a horrible team and if nothing changes we'll be 12th-15th place.
- 2013 is an extremely deep draft and a great reason to accumulate draft picks.
- Gomez, Bourque, and Kaberle should have their stats padded and be traded at the deadline. Do that and we have zero bad contracts, as well as a ton of draft picks in a deep draft.
- The Hamilton Bulldogs are bringing in Tinordi, Ellis, Gallagher, Beaulieu, hopefully Leblanc, Pateryn, Holland, etc. If we're going to lose we should lose now while the bulk of the future of the team is in Hamilton. We don't want to be losing in 2 years when these players join the Habs.
- The future of the team is Price, Subban, Pacioretty, Eller, Gorges, Emelin. Can we win anything with that core? No, we cannot. But if we strengthen that core with a couple more pieces we're looking real good.

You and I both agree that Semin is a very good player and an ideal winger for Plekanec. We just disagree about the status of the Habs. I think now is the time to build a championship team. I'm totally stoked for how good this team is going to be if we do the 1-year rebuild with surgical precision that I propose above.

4) Any player should be traded for the right package.

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07-23-2012, 02:44 PM
  #332
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Originally Posted by THE HOFF View Post
Imho as it stands its a bad trade for both teams ... CBJ's future should have been brighter after the trade, and from NY's point of view, I don't like nash's contract ... the trade makes them look better on paper, but center depth probably is their #1 issue right now. No way they win a cup without adding a good 2nd/3rd C.
You seem to be unfamiliar with this Stepan guy they have. Kreider can play centre too. They have no shortage of fire power. The only slight concern would be their 3rd RW. Rupp or Christian Thomas might have to step up. Either way they have what it takes.

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07-23-2012, 02:45 PM
  #333
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Rangers just added Nash, I doubt Semin is now on their radar!!!

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07-23-2012, 02:45 PM
  #334
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Originally Posted by THE HOFF View Post
Imho as it stands its a bad trade for both teams ... CBJ's future should have been brighter after the trade, and from NY's point of view, I don't like nash's contract ... the trade makes them look better on paper, but center depth probably is their #1 issue right now. No way they win a cup without adding a good 2nd/3rd C.
Who says they can't still do it?

They have the goaltending and 3 young studs on D not yet in their prime.

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07-23-2012, 02:46 PM
  #335
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Originally Posted by THE HOFF View Post
Imho as it stands its a bad trade for both teams ... CBJ's future should have been brighter after the trade, and from NY's point of view, I don't like nash's contract ... the trade makes them look better on paper, but center depth probably is their #1 issue right now. No way they win a cup without adding a good 2nd/3rd C.
Agreed...

Not as lopsided as most are claiming IMO. But I don't get how slather convinced how son to add a pick, or why it wasn't a much later pick... CBJ's 3rd rounder could be only 30 picks lower than the 1st they got in the deal.


Short term, looks pretty for NYR, but long term nash could be a headache... No more excuses, now he's gotta be the 40g70pt + player his contract implies. Also wonder how well he'll adapt to torts...

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07-23-2012, 03:22 PM
  #336
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Originally Posted by Uwey View Post
Rangers just added Nash, I doubt Semin is now on their radar!!!
He's not on our radar either.

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07-23-2012, 03:41 PM
  #337
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Rangers just added Nash, I doubt Semin is now on their radar!!!
They have 13m in cap space...gotta say Sather is doing a great job. Skills in Richards/Gaborik/Nash/Stepan/Callahan/Hagelin/Kreider. Toughness in Boyle/Asham/Pyatt/Rupp. Pretty nice balance.

Gaborik will be out up to 6months (according to reports in June)...which means he'll miss big part of the season. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Semin signs with them.

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07-23-2012, 03:48 PM
  #338
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1) LA was not a legitimate 8th place team last year. They didn't just win the Stanley Cup on some Cinderella run -- they dominated every single one of their opponents. I think they went 12-2 through the Western Conference. Does that sound like an 8th place team to you?

2) Nashville was not a cap floor team. I tell you the New York Islanders are a cap floor team and you respond by pointing out the Nashville Predators, who were several million dollars above the cap? They're quantitatively different. Islanders are a cap floor team who take on bad contracts to reach the cap floor. Predators can spend several million dollars above the cap floor, and have no need to take on bad contracts. Do you see the Predators taking on Visnovski because of his contract? Why not?

3) Edmonton only has Horcoff now because they were able to buy out Sourray. They had two bad contracts for a while due to their failed quest for 8th place. Now they are completing a proper rebuild. They have Nugent Hopkins, Hall, and Yakupov. They will soon be terrorizing the western conference. Their management the past few seasons has been excellent.

Semin is a bad move because he makes us a bubble team when what we need is a 1-year rebuild with surgical precision. 2012-2013 is possibly the best season in Habs history to have a 1-year rebuild with surgical precision.

- We have new management with a free pass to have a 1-year tank.
- We're already a horrible team and if nothing changes we'll be 12th-15th place.
- 2013 is an extremely deep draft and a great reason to accumulate draft picks.
- Gomez, Bourque, and Kaberle should have their stats padded and be traded at the deadline. Do that and we have zero bad contracts, as well as a ton of draft picks in a deep draft.
- The Hamilton Bulldogs are bringing in Tinordi, Ellis, Gallagher, Beaulieu, hopefully Leblanc, Pateryn, Holland, etc. If we're going to lose we should lose now while the bulk of the future of the team is in Hamilton. We don't want to be losing in 2 years when these players join the Habs.
- The future of the team is Price, Subban, Pacioretty, Eller, Gorges, Emelin. Can we win anything with that core? No, we cannot. But if we strengthen that core with a couple more pieces we're looking real good.

You and I both agree that Semin is a very good player and an ideal winger for Plekanec. We just disagree about the status of the Habs. I think now is the time to build a championship team. I'm totally stoked for how good this team is going to be if we do the 1-year rebuild with surgical precision that I propose above.

4) Any player should be traded for the right package.
When I look at last season's standings, that's where I see the Kings, 8th. Wether we think it's where they SHOULD have been higher or not is irrelevant. Them finishing 8th is a FACT.



Lets wait a little, everytime there's a team with a few good to great young forwards on cheap contract there's people saying that... but then, just a few years later, these kids get 5 or 6M a year and decisions have to be made... last case of "terror" the Hawks, barely making the playoffs since their run, they're not terrorizing much anymore.

and as for their management being great, it doesnt take much skills to have a bad team and wait for the 1st overall and such to come in... I bet pretty much every GM, if given the go to do that by their boss, could do the same just as well.

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07-23-2012, 03:55 PM
  #339
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For the people who think the Kings are a good role model for the Habs because they finished 8th:

Quick > Price
Kopitar > Desharnais
Richards > Plekanec
Carter > Cole
Doughty > Subban
Scuderi > Gorges
Brown > Bourque

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07-23-2012, 04:01 PM
  #340
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
1) LA was not a legitimate 8th place team last year. They didn't just win the Stanley Cup on some Cinderella run -- they dominated every single one of their opponents. I think they went 12-2 through the Western Conference. Does that sound like an 8th place team to you?

2) Nashville was not a cap floor team. I tell you the New York Islanders are a cap floor team and you respond by pointing out the Nashville Predators, who were several million dollars above the cap? They're quantitatively different. Islanders are a cap floor team who take on bad contracts to reach the cap floor. Predators can spend several million dollars above the cap floor, and have no need to take on bad contracts. Do you see the Predators taking on Visnovski because of his contract? Why not?

3) Edmonton only has Horcoff now because they were able to buy out Sourray. They had two bad contracts for a while due to their failed quest for 8th place. Now they are completing a proper rebuild. They have Nugent Hopkins, Hall, and Yakupov. They will soon be terrorizing the western conference. Their management the past few seasons has been excellent.

Semin is a bad move because he makes us a bubble team when what we need is a 1-year rebuild with surgical precision. 2012-2013 is possibly the best season in Habs history to have a 1-year rebuild with surgical precision.

- We have new management with a free pass to have a 1-year tank.
- We're already a horrible team and if nothing changes we'll be 12th-15th place.
- 2013 is an extremely deep draft and a great reason to accumulate draft picks.
- Gomez, Bourque, and Kaberle should have their stats padded and be traded at the deadline. Do that and we have zero bad contracts, as well as a ton of draft picks in a deep draft.
- The Hamilton Bulldogs are bringing in Tinordi, Ellis, Gallagher, Beaulieu, hopefully Leblanc, Pateryn, Holland, etc. If we're going to lose we should lose now while the bulk of the future of the team is in Hamilton. We don't want to be losing in 2 years when these players join the Habs.
- The future of the team is Price, Subban, Pacioretty, Eller, Gorges, Emelin. Can we win anything with that core? No, we cannot. But if we strengthen that core with a couple more pieces we're looking real good.

You and I both agree that Semin is a very good player and an ideal winger for Plekanec. We just disagree about the status of the Habs. I think now is the time to build a championship team. I'm totally stoked for how good this team is going to be if we do the 1-year rebuild with surgical precision that I propose above.

4) Any player should be traded for the right package.
Good points but I hate the word "tank".

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Old
07-23-2012, 04:03 PM
  #341
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
For the people who think the Kings are a good role model for the Habs because they finished 8th:

Quick > Price
Kopitar > Desharnais
Richards > Plekanec
Carter > Cole
Doughty > Subban
Scuderi > Gorges
Brown > Bourque
This one is a poor comparison. You can't rate the competitiveness of teams on the contributions of a handful of players.

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Old
07-23-2012, 04:36 PM
  #342
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
For the people who think the Kings are a good role model for the Habs because they finished 8th:

Quick > Price
Kopitar > Desharnais
Richards > Plekanec
Carter > Cole
Doughty > Subban
Scuderi > Gorges
Brown > Bourque
Finishing in 8th in the West is harder than the East anyway, though these comparisons look cherry picked.

I'm not convinced Quick is better than Price. Quick was good but not great until this year. We have nobody nearly as good as Kopitar.

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07-23-2012, 04:42 PM
  #343
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Finishing in 8th in the West is harder than the East anyway, though these comparisons look cherry picked.

I'm not convinced Quick is better than Price. Quick was good but not great until this year. We have nobody nearly as good as Kopitar.
I think Price will have a better career than Quick. But the season (and playoffs) Quick just had was a great one, and will be better than most seasons Price has.

I totally reject the notion that the Kings are a relevant short-term model for the Habs. They're not - they are a vastly superior team.

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07-23-2012, 04:50 PM
  #344
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
For the people who think the Kings are a good role model for the Habs because they finished 8th:

Richards > Plekanec
Carter > Cole
Scuderi > Gorges
What?

Also I'm not generally an optimistic fan, but we tend to overrate Stanley Cup winners. We have a few hole to fill in the roster, and it will take a few years, but we really aren't that far to be as good as anyone. (Note that it's also the case of every team in the league not playing in Columbus)

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07-23-2012, 04:55 PM
  #345
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I totally reject the notion that the Kings are a relevant short-term model for the Habs. They're not - they are a vastly superior team.
The Kings are a superior team, but you take away Kopitar, and suddenly they are in the same league as us. Doughty and Richards are better than Plekanec and Subban, but after that things get close.

Where the Rags "not a real 8th place team" when they were, even more than the Habs, a perennial 6th-10th place team that would get knocked out by anyone in the first round? Because they went from 8th to 1st place in the East without tanking in between.

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07-23-2012, 05:23 PM
  #346
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The Kings are a superior team, but you take away Kopitar, and suddenly they are in the same league as us. Doughty and Richards are better than Plekanec and Subban, but after that things get close.

Where the Rags "not a real 8th place team" when they were, even more than the Habs, a perennial 6th-10th place team that would get knocked out by anyone in the first round? Because they went from 8th to 1st place in the East without tanking in between.
I agree with most your post except I dont think Richards is better than Pleks. Pleks always seems to play with inferior linemates. Richards always has a go to guy on his wing. Pleks has his best seasn when Kovalev and Kostitsyn we on fire. He needs legit wingers to show how good he can be offensively because his defensive game is top notch

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07-23-2012, 05:27 PM
  #347
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
1) LA was not a legitimate 8th place team last year. They didn't just win the Stanley Cup on some Cinderella run -- they dominated every single one of their opponents. I think they went 12-2 through the Western Conference. Does that sound like an 8th place team to you?

2) Nashville was not a cap floor team. I tell you the New York Islanders are a cap floor team and you respond by pointing out the Nashville Predators, who were several million dollars above the cap? They're quantitatively different. Islanders are a cap floor team who take on bad contracts to reach the cap floor. Predators can spend several million dollars above the cap floor, and have no need to take on bad contracts. Do you see the Predators taking on Visnovski because of his contract? Why not?

3) Edmonton only has Horcoff now because they were able to buy out Sourray. They had two bad contracts for a while due to their failed quest for 8th place. Now they are completing a proper rebuild. They have Nugent Hopkins, Hall, and Yakupov. They will soon be terrorizing the western conference. Their management the past few seasons has been excellent.

Semin is a bad move because he makes us a bubble team when what we need is a 1-year rebuild with surgical precision. 2012-2013 is possibly the best season in Habs history to have a 1-year rebuild with surgical precision.

- We have new management with a free pass to have a 1-year tank.
- We're already a horrible team and if nothing changes we'll be 12th-15th place.
- 2013 is an extremely deep draft and a great reason to accumulate draft picks.
- Gomez, Bourque, and Kaberle should have their stats padded and be traded at the deadline. Do that and we have zero bad contracts, as well as a ton of draft picks in a deep draft.
- The Hamilton Bulldogs are bringing in Tinordi, Ellis, Gallagher, Beaulieu, hopefully Leblanc, Pateryn, Holland, etc. If we're going to lose we should lose now while the bulk of the future of the team is in Hamilton. We don't want to be losing in 2 years when these players join the Habs.
- The future of the team is Price, Subban, Pacioretty, Eller, Gorges, Emelin. Can we win anything with that core? No, we cannot. But if we strengthen that core with a couple more pieces we're looking real good.

You and I both agree that Semin is a very good player and an ideal winger for Plekanec. We just disagree about the status of the Habs. I think now is the time to build a championship team. I'm totally stoked for how good this team is going to be if we do the 1-year rebuild with surgical precision that I propose above.

4) Any player should be traded for the right package.
I agree entirely with everything you're saying.

I'm totally onboard with a 1-year rebuild.

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07-23-2012, 05:30 PM
  #348
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I agree with most your post except I dont think Richards is better than Pleks. Pleks always seems to play with inferior linemates. Richards always has a go to guy on his wing. Pleks has his best seasn when Kovalev and Kostitsyn we on fire. He needs legit wingers to show how good he can be offensively because his defensive game is top notch
I don't think any competent gm would ever trade Richards for Pleks. Richards is better, get over it.

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07-23-2012, 05:35 PM
  #349
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I don't think any competent gm would ever trade Richards for Pleks. Richards is better, get over it.
well plekanec had more points this year while playing with 4th line players than Richards who played with 1st, 2nd line players ... just saying .

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07-23-2012, 05:49 PM
  #350
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well plekanec had more points this year while playing with 4th line players than Richards who played with 1st, 2nd line players ... just saying .
And Richards was skating around with a cup over head in June while Pleks was watching tv in Kladno. The personal biased opinion of a fan doesn't make it universal true.

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