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Rick Nash+S. Delisle+cond. 3rd to NYR for Dubinsky+Anisimov+Erixon+2013 1st (Part II)

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07-24-2012, 12:07 AM
  #301
Gardner McKay
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lexus Dog View Post
I actually didn't bend anything. 33 players in NHL history have had greater than or equal to 180 goals/360 points (30-30 average) from ages 28-33. What's there to bend?

Now ask yourself is Nash that type of player? I hope he's an outlier, I really do, but history isn't quite on our side here.

Also, LOL @ "stupidity of those stats". Stats can be stupid? It's just the facts man.
No your taking an average of 5 years and saying he will score 30 a year.

Your original statement was he will NOT increase his offensive output and score more than 30 goals a year. He can't score 35 1 year and 25 another?

I can't handle the idiocy of these arguments. There is a big difference between he won't score more than 30, and he will average 30.

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07-24-2012, 12:13 AM
  #302
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Originally Posted by NvincentYvalentineR View Post
No. Your posting statistics and trying to bend them to fit your absurdly bogus argument.

You said Nash won't score more than 30. Im so blown away by the stupidity of those stats in correlation with your argument I am kind of at a loss for words.

And yes, we all hear you on it, but none of us speak whatever gibberish you are attempting to communicate in.
The only thing his table shows is the players that scored 180 goals and 360 points between ages 28 and 33. It has nothing to do with previous point totals, or anything else. It is just players that have a total of 180 goals and 36t0 pts in that age range.

It is nothing predictive. It shows nothing of value. It is simply a list of players that meet certain criteria. It doesn't show anything about increasing goal totals.

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07-24-2012, 12:15 AM
  #303
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Originally Posted by tpb209 View Post
The only thing his table shows is the players that scored 180 goals and 360 points between ages 28 and 33. It has nothing to do with previous point totals, or anything else. It is just players that have a total of 180 goals and 36t0 pts in that age range.

It is nothing predictive. It shows nothing of value. It is simply a list of players that meet certain criteria. It doesn't show anything about increasing goal totals.


Thank you for speaking the truth.

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07-24-2012, 12:18 AM
  #304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lexus Dog View Post
I actually didn't bend anything. 33 players in NHL history have had greater than or equal to 180 goals/360 points (30-30 average) from ages 28-33. What's there to bend?

Now ask yourself is Nash that type of player? I hope he's an outlier, I really do, but history isn't quite on our side here.

Also, LOL @ "stupidity of those stats". Stats can be stupid? It's just the facts man.
Acting like that list is some kind of definitive statement is absurd. Look at that list. 21 of the 33 played their age 28-33 seasons in the last 30 years. How can this kind of performance be considered a crazy rarity now when two thirds of your list happened in hockey's last three decades? Putting up these kinds of numbers is clearly way more doable now than it was in the 50s, 60s, and 70s.

Again look at this list: Verbeek. Guerin. Andreychuk. Bondra. They were all very good players, but none of them belong in the Hall. Nash's name would in no way shape or form look out of place with them. Like I said before, using hockey stats to try and make definitive statements is flawed logic. This isn't baseball.

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07-24-2012, 12:19 AM
  #305
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Originally Posted by Lexus Dog View Post
Nope. The prime goal-scoring years are 22-27. A player begins to exit his prime, as displayed by the chart, at age 28.

edit: displayed more by who is not on it than by who is on it. ie, the lack of players who are not on it.
You actually think a list of players who eclipsed their career high in goals from 28-33 is meaningful and proves anything? A career high is by definition hard to exceed since it's the HIGH point of the career and defines the upper range of the average. What you've identified is the obvious - it's hard to exceed your best ever performance.

It's not, however, hard to perform at our around your average. It's also not unreasonable to suggest that playing with more talent could provide a bonus to overall performance. This is all REASONABLE...not factual, not certain, but clearly not ridiculous as you suggest.

So believing Nash will score 35 or maybe 38-42 as a result of playing on the 2nd best team in the league, with more playmakers, is not unreasonable.

What's most important to remember is that Rick Nash will play the game and score an unknowable number of goals because stats only provide guidance and not PROOF of future performance.

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07-24-2012, 12:21 AM
  #306
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Stats are facts in hockey? Really?

Ok so when Petr Prucha scored 30 and 22 goals in back to back seasons, respectively, those STATS should be FACTS to indicate he'd be a 25-30 goal scorer the rest of his career. It's an anomaly that he only lasted a few more years in the NHL after those two seasons and did not come close to hitting those goal totals ever again.

Every player is different. Every person is different. Pull up the stats* all you want. Doesn't mean ****. And I wasn;t in the Nash camp at all during the trade negotiations for the fear that we'd have to overpay or give up pieces we did not want to part with.

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07-24-2012, 12:21 AM
  #307
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Here is a nice table I cooked up. I won't try to make any crazy claims about it. It features players that have 360 total points from 28-33. Is Rick Nash as good as Mark Recchi, Theo Fleury, Markus Naslund, and Olli Jokinen? You answer that question.http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

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07-24-2012, 12:24 AM
  #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gresch04 View Post
You actually think a list of players who eclipsed their career high in goals from 28-33 is meaningful and proves anything? A career high is by definition hard to exceed since it's the HIGH point of the career and defines the upper range of the average. What you've identified is the obvious - it's hard to exceed your best ever performance.

It's not, however, hard to perform at our around your average. It's also not unreasonable to suggest that playing with more talent could provide a bonus to overall performance. This is all REASONABLE...not factual, not certain, but clearly not ridiculous as you suggest.

So believing Nash will score 35 or maybe 38-42 as a result of playing on the 2nd best team in the league, with more playmakers, is not unreasonable.

What's most important to remember is that Rick Nash will play the game and score an unknowable number of goals because stats only provide guidance and not PROOF of future performance.
I would have no problem with his assertion if he actually provided proof of what he said. He didn't actually show anything about a player eclipsing previous goal totals after age 28. He just gave you a link to a list of players that have 180 goals and 360 points between ages 28-33. He didn't show anything to back up his claims. He provided meaningless tables that he assumed no one would understand.

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07-24-2012, 12:27 AM
  #309
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Wow, Sather got his man at darn close to his prize. The reality is that in tems of cap space, the Rangers only added about $1.8 million.

Now it's up to Nash. Can he be the 2008 version of himself, or is going to be a very good, but overrated player? Time will tell.

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07-24-2012, 12:54 AM
  #310
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Boy was he chubby as a a kid.

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07-24-2012, 12:56 AM
  #311
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post


Boy was he chubby as a a kid.
still is

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07-24-2012, 12:56 AM
  #312
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For the record, only 94 players in history were able to achieve that same feat from 22-27. Guess who's #62 (ranked by goals scored) on that list...?
http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...order_by=goals

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07-24-2012, 01:04 AM
  #313
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Guys, can we just move on? The trade is done. Whether you were for it or not, today Rick Nash is a NYR and Dubi/AA/Erixon are Columbus Blue Jackets.

For those who were against the trade (and I was one of the most vocal in this category), it doesn't help anything to continually rehash all of the reasons why. Nash wears a Rangers sweater now, so I'm just going to hope that I was wrong about him.

By the same token, for those of you who have spent the last couple of years grinding your axes on Dubi, AA or Erixon, it's okay to stop now. Whatever irrational reason you had to despise them was traded along with them.

This is the Rangers team now. Regardless of where we stood before the trade, can't we all agree to hope for the best now that the trade it complete?

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07-24-2012, 01:06 AM
  #314
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We got Rick Nash.

I still can't believe.

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07-24-2012, 01:17 AM
  #315
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let this sink in folks.

During Rick Nash's career in Columbus, not including his rookie year, the Blue Jackets have not had a single 30 goal scorer.

None. Zip. Zilch. Not One. That's 8 straight years, and Nash has done it in 7 of the 8 years, and in the 1 year he didnt, he was scoring at a 30 goal pace.

NOT ONE.

Minnesota at least had Rolston who was a perennial 30+ goal scorer to go with Gabby.

Kovalchuk had Heatley, Hossa, Little, and Savard (i dont think he hit 30, but he came real close a few times, and was a playmaker anyway to feed him the puck)

Nash has had NOTHING.

The 3 best players hes played with in his career are probably Vyborny, Carter (who is a shoot first center), RJ Umberger and Zherdev.

Think about that guys....


No really, think about that.


You think Gaborik had it tough? It's not as hard to score 40 goals when you have Brad Richards, Derek Stepan, a world class goalie and an elite defense getting you the puck. Nash? He's had nothing to work with. It's actually sickening to look at the talent he's had to play with. Vyborny is 2nd all time in CLBs history in points with 317...

Think about this folks...Derek Stepan, in 2 years of playing hockey, would be ranked 18th all time in Columbus Blue Jackets history in scoring.

in 2 effing seasons.

Ryan Callahan would be ranked 3rd all time.

Brian Boyle would be 23rd...

Mark Messier scored more goals in his career than the top 5 goal scorers in that franchises history.....combined. he had more points than the top 8 point scorers of all time....combined.

Petr Prucha had more goals in his NHL Career than all but 4 players in Columbus Blue Jackets history.

If you add the Columbus Blue Jackets #2, #3 and #4 goal scorers of all time, it only JUST BARELY beats what Rick Nash has done in his career there.

Rick Nash has had to play his entire career, in the hardest conference, in arguably the hardest division in that conference, with the equivalent of the cast of the golden girls as linemates...and has produced at a very high rate.

No player that I can think of has ever had to deal with that pathetic of a team his entire career before. Nobody.

Rick Nash will be a 40 goal scorer here.


Last edited by Inferno: 07-24-2012 at 01:28 AM.
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07-24-2012, 01:19 AM
  #316
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We should have gotten Nash when i asked for him, and we'd be Stanley Cup Winners already.

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07-24-2012, 01:20 AM
  #317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
let this sink in folks.

During Rick Nash's career in Columbus, not including his rookie year, the Blue Jackets have not had a single 30 goal scorer.

None. Zip. Zilch. Not One. That's 8 straight years, and Nash has done it in 7 of the 8 years, and in the 1 year he didnt, he was scoring at a 30 goal pace.

NOT ONE.

Minnesota at least had Rolston who was a perennial 30+ goal scorer to go with Gabby.

Kovalchuk had Heatley, Hossa, Little, and Savard (i dont think he hit 30, but he came real close a few times, and was a playmaker anyway to feed him the puck)

Nash has had NOTHING.

The 3 best players hes played with in his career are probably Vyborny, Carter (who is a shoot first center), RJ Umberger and Zherdev.

Think about that guys....


No really, think about that.


You think Gaborik had it tough? It's not as hard to score 40 goals when you have Brad Richards, Derek Stepan, a world class goalie and an elite defense getting you the puck. Nash? He's had nothing to work with. It's actually sickening to look at the talent he's had to play with. Vyborny is 2nd all time in Nashville history in points with 317...

Think about this folks...Derek Stepan, in 2 years of playing hockey, would be ranked 18th all time in Columbus Blue Jackets history in scoring.

in 2 effing seasons.

Ryan Callahan would be ranked 3rd all time.

Brian Boyle would be 23rd...

Mark Messier scored more goals in his career than the top 5 goal scorers in that franchises history.....combined. he had more points than the top 8 point scorers of all time....combined.

Petr Prucha had more goals in his NHL Career than all but 4 players in Columbus Blue Jackets history.

If you add the Columbus Blue Jackets #2, #3 and #4 goal scorers of all time, it only JUST BARELY beats what Rick Nash has done in his career there.

Rick Nash has had to play his entire career, in the hardest conference, in arguably the hardest division in that conference, with the equivalent of the cast of the golden girls as linemates...and has produced at a very high rate.

No player that I can think of has ever had to deal with that pathetic of a team his entire career before. Nobody.

Rick Nash will be a 40 goal scorer here.

Yes. Now we got delayed by one year. So this year we win the..............

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07-24-2012, 01:30 AM
  #318
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imho the Rangers just went from being Stanley Cup Contenders, to being Stanley Cup Favorites.

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07-24-2012, 01:33 AM
  #319
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Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
imho the Rangers just went from being Stanley Cup Contenders, to being Stanley Cup Favorites.
Hear Hear...........and another bottle of rum.

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07-24-2012, 01:40 AM
  #320
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When asked about the trade, Artem Anisimov said "Is this because of the Gun Stick incident? I already said I was sorry."

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07-24-2012, 01:58 AM
  #321
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Chris Kreider has to be pretty excited about this. He is still just a kid. He hasn't even had a full year yet, was thrown into the playoffs (not that he wasn't able to handle it), he got to play around all these guys and now they add Rick Nash. But that's got to be quite the spectacle for him. Surrounded by a lot of veteran talent.

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07-24-2012, 02:20 AM
  #322
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imho the Rangers just went from being Stanley Cup Contenders, to being Stanley Cup Favorites.
Still contenders, they may move into favorites if they address their other needs.

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07-24-2012, 02:41 AM
  #323
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wow, as much as I liked watching Dubinsky and Artem I think it was worth seeing them go in exchange for Nash.

I was also looking forward to watching Erixon play too

good news all around

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07-24-2012, 02:49 AM
  #324
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I will say - in regards to the contract - 6 months ago I thought it was quite high and was my biggest drawback. Today - I won't say bargain, but I believe it's reasonable. When these guys become available on the market you're seeing these Parise/Suter contracts. This contract takes him until he's 34. He's a big guy - I don't see the Drury problem here...

The package that we gave up? I was never a big AA guy. I didn't like that his ice time decreased as the post season progressed, and I don't think he really hits his scoring potential. I was a big Dubinsky guy (I have his jersey), but his contract grew quicker than his ability. Erixon has potential, but I'm glad that McIlrath is here instead. Hopeully we can acquire another 1st, but this was the right deal at the right time IMO.

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07-24-2012, 02:56 AM
  #325
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I see Nash - plus Kreider and Stepan's progression as a HUGE upgrade to this team. Sather said he's not done. Doan on the right deal would be great, but just adding another legit 2-way 20 goal scorer and a reliable right handed D-man (and/or a healthy Sauer) would set this team up to make a serious run...

Kreider-Richards-Gaborik
Nash-Stepan-Callahan
Hagelin-Boyle- ?
Pyatt-Halpern-Asham

Girardi - McD
Staal - Stralman/Sauer/ ?
MDZ - Stralman/Sauer/ ?

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