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Old
07-24-2012, 10:32 AM
  #901
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Originally Posted by Uber Coca View Post
I don't think it's a bad deal for Columbus given the context.
Yeah, because they got so many great draft picks to rebuild with. Not. WTF are they doing? They should have gotten 2 ists from Rags, and I would have asked for McDo too. Otherwise **** you very much.

Rags are desperate for a cup now. That is their only weakness. Therefore you grab youth and picks from them, big time. Not OK 2nd liners. What the **** are they going to do with Dubinsky the next three years? Lose more? I guess so. They must be competing with the Oil for the most first picks in a row record. Jeez.

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07-24-2012, 10:45 AM
  #902
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Yeah, because they got so many great draft picks to rebuild with. Not. WTF are they doing? They should have gotten 2 ists from Rags, and I would have asked for McDo too. Otherwise **** you very much.

Rags are desperate for a cup now. That is their only weakness. Therefore you grab youth and picks from them, big time. Not OK 2nd liners. What the **** are they going to do with Dubinsky the next three years? Lose more? I guess so. They must be competing with the Oil for the most first picks in a row record. Jeez.
You are overrating 1st rounders and underrating guys like Dubinsky Erixon and Anisimov.

I'm sure CBJ could trade Dubinsky today for two 1sts or a 1st and a top prospect.

Anisimov put up 80 points the last 2 years(combined) at 22 and 23. Not a big stretch to assume he could he can't turn out better than or be traded for more than a 1st round pick. If he shows us in CBJ and puts yp 50-55 points a year with a couple more minutes a game. He has 12 PP points the last 2 years combined, just that could improve his stats by 10-12 points/year.

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07-24-2012, 10:45 AM
  #903
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
If you look at it that way though, the 3 players Columbus got will probably outproduce Nash. His production may bump up 10-15 points(75-80) but Dubinsky's may rise to 55-60 and Anisimov could go up to 50 or maybe 55 depending on ice time plus Erixon in the NHL all year might get 30.
Meanwhile, the OTHER two players bumped up by the Rags competing with Anisimov and Erixon also get 40 points each. Forgot that I guess.

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07-24-2012, 10:50 AM
  #904
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Our 1st rounder may very well be superior to Rick Nash, as Seguin is better than Kessell.

Nash belongs on a team that can win now. He can't carry a mediocre team by himself. See Blue Jackets, Columbus.

You're the one with the Habs bias, as you're thinking our 1st rounder won't be remotely as good as Nash.
God, I hate when people deal with the abstract and unprovable comments. This is a circular argument with no end because I can turn around and pull the same thing on you by saying Nach COULD become the greatest scorer the NHL will ever see due to playing with the Rangers but I won't because there is no basis for such a statement. That obviously hasn't stopped you from making outlandish statements like our 1st COULD be better than Nash ever was or will be. In that case, why didn't Columbus just trade Nash for a 1st round pick from a bottom feeder team? Because no one makes trades assuming that their 1st rounder will be a generational talent, except you.

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07-24-2012, 10:51 AM
  #905
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
You are overrating 1st rounders and underrating guys like Dubinsky Erixon and Anisimov.

I'm sure CBJ could trade Dubinsky today for two 1sts or a 1st and a top prospect.

Anisimov put up 80 points the last 2 years(combined) at 22 and 23. Not a big stretch to assume he could he can't turn out better than or be traded for more than a 1st round pick. If he shows us in CBJ and puts yp 50-55 points a year with a couple more minutes a game. He has 12 PP points the last 2 years combined, just that could improve his stats by 10-12 points/year.
I sure hope you aren't serious.

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07-24-2012, 11:13 AM
  #906
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
God, I hate when people deal with the abstract and unprovable comments. This is a circular argument with no end because I can turn around and pull the same thing on you by saying Nach COULD become the greatest scorer the NHL will ever see due to playing with the Rangers but I won't because there is no basis for such a statement. That obviously hasn't stopped you from making outlandish statements like our 1st COULD be better than Nash ever was or will be. In that case, why didn't Columbus just trade Nash for a 1st round pick from a bottom feeder team? Because no one makes trades assuming that their 1st rounder will be a generational talent, except you.
Nash had a list of teams he would accept a trade too, and he wanted to go to a contender. Columbus probably didn't have the option of asking for Calgary's, Edmonton's, Anaheim's, or Montreal's 1st, and even if they did those teams may have said no.

There is a legitimate possibility our 2013 1st could be better than Nash. There is no possibility that Nash could become the greatest player ever.

Nash isn't a generational talent. He's a 30-30 player in the middle of his prime on an expensive contract. You are severely overrating him.

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07-24-2012, 11:21 AM
  #907
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I sure hope you aren't serious.
Toronto got a 1st and top prospect for 3-4 months of Kaberle, I'm pretty sure a guy like Dubinsky could get at least that much down the road. Maybe TODAY his stock is lower than that, but he is 26 coming off a down year with a very reasonable contract, his value will increase.

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07-24-2012, 11:23 AM
  #908
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Meanwhile, the OTHER two players bumped up by the Rags competing with Anisimov and Erixon also get 40 points each. Forgot that I guess.
At ZERO cap hit?

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07-24-2012, 11:27 AM
  #909
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Nash had a list of teams he would accept a trade too, and he wanted to go to a contender. Columbus probably didn't have the option of asking for Calgary's, Edmonton's, Anaheim's, or Montreal's 1st, and even if they did those teams may have said no.

There is a legitimate possibility our 2013 1st could be better than Nash. There is no possibility that Nash could become the greatest player ever.

Nash isn't a generational talent. He's a 30-30 player in the middle of his prime on an expensive contract. You are severely overrating him.
By "legitimate chance" you mean in your head? Because factually speaking the odds of our 1st round pick next year becoming a better player than Nash are closer to slim and none, rather then likely. Just saying. I know it goes against your argument but let's be honest here. It's not actually likely is it?

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07-24-2012, 11:38 AM
  #910
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By "legitimate chance" you mean in your head? Because factually speaking the odds of our 1st round pick next year becoming a better player than Nash are closer to slim and none, rather then likely. Just saying. I know it goes against your argument but let's be honest here. It's not actually likely is it?
You consider Nash to be a generational talent, and if that's the case the odds of us getting a better player next year is probably below 1%, as in any given year there will be less than 1 player who is as good as Nash.

I consider Nash to be a 30-30 player, a star who isn't a superstar. He is not on the llevel of Hossa, Malkin, or Sedin. He wasn't in the top-50 last year for NHLers in terms of points. He wasn't even top-25 for goals. There are a lot of defenseman I'd take before Nash, over a dozen of them. In an average year there are three players as good as Nash or better, the Habs will be drafting high, and 2013 will be one of the deepest drafts ever. Thus, the odds of us getting a better player than Nash are thus much higher, maybe 30%.

I was one of the people praying that Gauthier wouldn't trade our 1st rounder this year. I was happy when we drafted Galchenyuk. I predict Galchenyuk will be better than Nash.


Last edited by DAChampion: 07-24-2012 at 11:53 AM.
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Old
07-24-2012, 11:39 AM
  #911
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Toronto got a 1st and top prospect for 3-4 months of Kaberle, I'm pretty sure a guy like Dubinsky could get at least that much down the road. Maybe TODAY his stock is lower than that, but he is 26 coming off a down year with a very reasonable contract, his value will increase.
He's a guy who scored a grand total of 10 goals while playing close to 2mins on the PP, he's not a good passer, he's not a good finisher, he's a decent PKer (5th in SH TOI amongst Rags FWD's), but nothing special and he's paid over 4mil and he takes a lot of penalties (30 minors which is far and away most on the Rags this past season), no one in their right mind would trade 2 1st's for him.

And Kaberle's stock at the time of his trade to Boston was way higher than Dubinsky's right now and it was still considered to be a vast overpayment for him.

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07-24-2012, 11:49 AM
  #912
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Yeah, because they got so many great draft picks to rebuild with. Not. WTF are they doing? They should have gotten 2 ists from Rags, and I would have asked for McDo too. Otherwise **** you very much.

Rags are desperate for a cup now. That is their only weakness. Therefore you grab youth and picks from them, big time. Not OK 2nd liners. What the **** are they going to do with Dubinsky the next three years? Lose more? I guess so. They must be competing with the Oil for the most first picks in a row record. Jeez.
The players have a lot of power when it comes down to trades like these. He actually had a list of 6 teams, and it was well known Nash wanted to be traded. Howson gets to call the general managers of those 6 teams and look at what he could be getting in return. You have the context there, and you're telling me he got screwed in this trade ?

I'm telling you this : given the context, he still got something potentially good. It's not the greatest return, and it still favors the Rangers since they didn't give core players and received one, but Howson still managed to get competent players with potential that are young with little to no power in the negociations. Add the fact that you are severly underrating Dubinsky because of his awful season and Anisimov and overrating Nash. You are also overreacting, but that's what people do on the internet to catch attention.

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Old
07-24-2012, 12:01 PM
  #913
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You consider Nash to be a generational talent, and if that's the case the odds of us getting a better player next year is probably below 5%, as in any given year there will be less than 1 player who is as good as Nash.

I consider Nash to be a 30-30 player, a star who isn't a superstar. He is not on the llevel of Hossa, Malkin, or Sedin. He wasn't in the top-50 last year for NHLers in terms of points. He wasn't even top-25 for goals. There are a lot of defenseman I'd take before Nash, over a dozen of them. In an average year there are three players as good as Nash or better, the Habs will be drafting high, and 2013 will be one of the deepest drafts ever. Thus, the odds of us getting a better player than Nash are thus much higher, maybe 30%.

I was one of the people praying that Gauthier wouldn't trade our 1st rounder this year. I was happy when we drafted Galchenyuk. I predict Galchenyuk will be better than Nash.
Woah tiger, I never said Nash was a generational talent, so let's not go putting words in my mouth.

As for you're assessment of Nah, you're entittled to your opinion. I disagree though.

Nash has scored less than 30 goals twice in his 10 year career. His rookie season (17) and in 2006 (27) in 75 games. His assist numbers are similar to his goal production as he's averaged .81 points per game. That puts him at around 67 point per season average on arguably the worst team in the NHL with almost no supporting cast for nearly all that time.

If Nash isn't a 40 goal scorer this year playing on a line withRichards, I'd be amazed. If you think he's more the player he was last year then the player he actually is, that's your call. I'll go with a guy who has true top end potential. Time will tell but I really like my odds. And as for any of our picks being better then Nash in the future or in the past. It hasn't happened yet so I don't know why youre so confident it will happen next year.

Btw, I wld LOVE to see your quantitative analysis as to how you got to the 30% odds of us drafting a better player than Nash. Please elaborate.


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Old
07-24-2012, 12:09 PM
  #914
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Let just say that the day you ask for a trade, you can't have the freakin nerve to give a list on top of that. Makes no freakin sense whatsoever. Let just say that Sather has a sense to know when a guy HAS to make a move and he benefit from it. Good job from Sather. But as much as I think Howson is an awful GM....I don't think he had a whole lot of choice here.

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07-24-2012, 12:16 PM
  #915
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Let just say that the day you ask for a trade, you can't have the freakin nerve to give a list on top of that. Makes no freakin sense whatsoever. Let just say that Sather has a sense to know when a guy HAS to make a move and he benefit from it. Good job from Sather. But as much as I think Howson is an awful GM....I don't think he had a whole lot of choice here.
It's easy to say that he should have went for younger pieces, players like Miller/MDZ/Kreider but look at what Heatley, Thornton went for. Players who want out don't give teams much leverage.

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07-24-2012, 12:20 PM
  #916
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Originally Posted by DoingItLeBlancWay View Post
It's easy to say that he should have went for younger pieces, players like Miller/MDZ/Kreider but look at what Heatley, Thornton went for. Players who want out don't give teams much leverage.
Those are very good comparables. Both of those guys also had big contracts at the time.

What CBJ got is more than both Thornton and Heatly got Boston and Ottawa respectively.

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07-24-2012, 12:22 PM
  #917
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Let just say that the day you ask for a trade, you can't have the freakin nerve to give a list on top of that. Makes no freakin sense whatsoever. Let just say that Sather has a sense to know when a guy HAS to make a move and he benefit from it. Good job from Sather. But as much as I think Howson is an awful GM....I don't think he had a whole lot of choice here.
Agree completely. IMO, if a player wants out of a contract/demands a trade, an existing NTC should be modified to a reasonable number of teams, say 10 to 12.

I would not be surprised if this was a topic of negotiation at the CBA talks.

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07-24-2012, 12:24 PM
  #918
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Originally Posted by DoingItLeBlancWay View Post
It's easy to say that he should have went for younger pieces, players like Miller/MDZ/Kreider but look at what Heatley, Thornton went for. Players who want out don't give teams much leverage.
Thornton didn't want out, Bruins owner wanted him gone and he wanted to trade him as far away from Boston as possible, everyone knew that was a dumb trade when it happened.

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07-24-2012, 12:25 PM
  #919
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Thornton didn't want out, Bruins owner wanted him gone and he wanted to trade him as far away from Boston as possible, everyone knew that was a dumb trade when it happened.
Regardless, it's still a reason other than getting a good return and moving a player. Outside forces forcing a GM to do the best he can.

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07-24-2012, 12:28 PM
  #920
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Regardless, it's still a reason other than getting a good return and moving a player. Outside forces forcing a GM to do the best he can.
Thornton's deal isn't relevant to this discussion, because Boston wasn't looking for the best deal avaliable, they were looking to punt Thornton as far away as possible.

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07-24-2012, 12:47 PM
  #921
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He's a guy who scored a grand total of 10 goals while playing close to 2mins on the PP, he's not a good passer, he's not a good finisher, he's a decent PKer (5th in SH TOI amongst Rags FWD's), but nothing special and he's paid over 4mil and he takes a lot of penalties (30 minors which is far and away most on the Rags this past season), no one in their right mind would trade 2 1st's for him.

And Kaberle's stock at the time of his trade to Boston was way higher than Dubinsky's right now and it was still considered to be a vast overpayment for him.
This isn't a terribly balanced analysis of Dubinsky. After all, there's a reason the Rangers have paid him handsomely, and determined him to be a core player up until this past season.

It's worth mentioning that Dubinsky had the second highest Corsi rating among Ranger top-9 forwards, and that he was actually the most effective 5-on-5 player for the club. He also had one of the lowest off zone start %s on the club, and was able to push the puck up the ice extremely well consistently -- despite facing solid opposition.

You say he took a lot of penalties -- the most on the Rags, according to you -- but he drew as many as he took, so that negates itself.

In 2010-11, it was Anisimov, Dubinsky and Callahan who faced by far the toughest competition. (No other Ranger forward came close, in fact) They also had tough zone start %s. Despite the fact that they're underskilled relative to virtually any top line in the league, they actually held their own and did OK. Further, Dubinsky produced in that year similar numbers to what Nash did this year--all the while playing these tough minutes! Again, Dubinsky took a good number of minors, but he drew more than he took.

This is a common theme for Dubinsky: he's a really solid fundamental player. And he can put up points. He's a high quality 2nd liner who's young and has room for improvement. He works hard, too, so I have no doubt he will improve. Further, he has all those nice qualities that managers and fans enjoy: he's gritty, he's a leader, etc etc.

I think the other poster is correct in claiming that Dubinsky is worth more than a 1st round draft pick. He's a quality player. And he's been incredibly underrated in this trade.

As for the other components: as mentioned above, Anisimov's no stranger to tough competition. He fares decently there. He's a very, very good third line player who's young enough to bloom into something more. We're keen on Eller in the same way that Ranger fans were keen on Anisimov. If we believe Eller can be a 2nd liner who's fundamentally very strong, then the same could be said for Anisimov who has, in fact, proven more in his young career.

Erixon I didn't see last year. I liked him a great deal in the SEL, though, and think he's a high quality prospect.

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07-24-2012, 01:16 PM
  #922
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Thornton's deal isn't relevant to this discussion, because Boston wasn't looking for the best deal avaliable, they were looking to punt Thornton as far away as possible.
If Boston wasn't looking for the best deal available, the team should be folded up and thrown in the dumpster.

I cannot believe, nor could anyone prove, that they just wanted him gone and did not try to improve their team. You do not get a 6'4" center that passes the puck that well very easily. They come around once once every 4 years, and 30 teams try to snag him.

To throw one away...I just do not buy it.

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07-24-2012, 01:17 PM
  #923
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Well the good news is , nash's best years MIGHT be behind him..

but new york should be a force to be reckoned with next year no matter how you look at it

nash playing with talented players probably makes him a 70 pt player right away

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07-24-2012, 01:19 PM
  #924
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This isn't a terribly balanced analysis of Dubinsky. After all, there's a reason the Rangers have paid him handsomely, and determined him to be a core player up until this past season.

It's worth mentioning that Dubinsky had the second highest Corsi rating among Ranger top-9 forwards, and that he was actually the most effective 5-on-5 player for the club. He also had one of the lowest off zone start %s on the club, and was able to push the puck up the ice extremely well consistently -- despite facing solid opposition.

You say he took a lot of penalties -- the most on the Rags, according to you -- but he drew as many as he took, so that negates itself.

In 2010-11, it was Anisimov, Dubinsky and Callahan who faced by far the toughest competition. (No other Ranger forward came close, in fact) They also had tough zone start %s. Despite the fact that they're underskilled relative to virtually any top line in the league, they actually held their own and did OK. Further, Dubinsky produced in that year similar numbers to what Nash did this year--all the while playing these tough minutes! Again, Dubinsky took a good number of minors, but he drew more than he took.

This is a common theme for Dubinsky: he's a really solid fundamental player. And he can put up points. He's a high quality 2nd liner who's young and has room for improvement. He works hard, too, so I have no doubt he will improve. Further, he has all those nice qualities that managers and fans enjoy: he's gritty, he's a leader, etc etc.

I think the other poster is correct in claiming that Dubinsky is worth more than a 1st round draft pick. He's a quality player. And he's been incredibly underrated in this trade.

As for the other components: as mentioned above, Anisimov's no stranger to tough competition. He fares decently there. He's a very, very good third line player who's young enough to bloom into something more. We're keen on Eller in the same way that Ranger fans were keen on Anisimov. If we believe Eller can be a 2nd liner who's fundamentally very strong, then the same could be said for Anisimov who has, in fact, proven more in his young career.

Erixon I didn't see last year. I liked him a great deal in the SEL, though, and think he's a high quality prospect.
Using CORSI without applying it in the right context is pointless, not to mention that CORSI is extremely flawed stat to begin with. He played the most with Callahan, McD and Girardi on the ice and while Callahan, Richards, Boyle, Stepan, Gaborik played mostly against Malkin, Giroux, Coburn, Hamonic, Chara, Parise, Kovalchuk, Dubinsky played the most against Parenteau, Streit and Bogosian.

He wasn't the sole player on his line responsible for pushing the puck up the ice, he had some pretty good linemates that helped him in transition.

And he isn't a top 6 forward, he's a 3rd liner on a playoff team who can play in a top 6 role for short stretches in case of injuries. He's a player who can do everything, but he's not great or even very good at anything.

I like Anisimov, but he's pretty much a decent 3rd liner and he'll probably stay one throughout his career.

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07-24-2012, 01:22 PM
  #925
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If Boston wasn't looking for the best deal available, the team should be folded up and thrown in the dumpster.

I cannot believe, nor could anyone prove, that they just wanted him gone and did not try to improve their team. You do not get a 6'4" center that passes the puck that well very easily. They come around once once every 4 years, and 30 teams try to snag him.

To throw one away...I just do not buy it.
Joe himself said that Bruins had much better offers on the table.

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