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07-24-2012, 11:03 AM
  #101
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After seeing what Torts system did to Richards, I'll wait and see some games before making predictions.

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07-24-2012, 11:14 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by massivegoonery View Post
You can tell exactly who in this thead has actually watched the last ten years of Blackhawks hockey. I'd prefer Nikolai Zherdev to Rick Nash.
Hahahahaha what a luaghably misguised and bad post.

Thanks for playing.

Go back to huffing the Kruger glue.

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07-24-2012, 11:22 AM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by massivegoonery View Post
You can tell exactly who in this thead has actually watched the last ten years of Blackhawks hockey. I'd prefer Nikolai Zherdev to Rick Nash.
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Originally Posted by MagicSlap View Post
Hahahahaha what a luaghably misguised and bad post.

Thanks for playing.

Go back to huffing the Kruger glue.
Wait, the Zherdev > Nash thing ISN'T a joke?

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07-24-2012, 12:13 PM
  #104
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Well, to be fair. I would rather have Zherdev too. Because it would mean $0 against the cap vs. 7.8mil against the cap.


Last edited by Hawkaholic: 07-24-2012 at 02:12 PM.
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07-24-2012, 12:18 PM
  #105
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The only reason I would be hesitant is because of the cap hit, and Toews and Kane needing new contracts soon, as well as others. It would be a tough decision, that's for sure, but it think we'd be too top heavy with him and would rather get a 2C and another legit top 4 defenseman instead of a winger for nearly $8M in a cap room.

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07-24-2012, 05:49 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by AmericanDream View Post
last years stats

Anisimov and Dubinsky = 72 points

Nash = 59 points

not sure what your math suggests, but 72 is more then 59....

Dubinsky and Anisimov outperformed Nash last year and will again this year as well
Sure when you add them together, sad part is they still barely beat out Nash. Who cares, neither Anisomov or Dubinsky are game changing players, they will be nice additions to a 3-4 line and nothing more, Nash has the potential to be a top 10 G producer.

By your math why don't the Hawks trade Kane (66 pts) to the Sabres for Derek Roy and Tyler Ennis (78 pts)

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07-24-2012, 07:30 PM
  #107
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Nash wasn't a game breaking player in CLB either.

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07-24-2012, 07:31 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Sir Psycho T View Post
Sure when you add them together, sad part is they still barely beat out Nash. Who cares, neither Anisomov or Dubinsky are game changing players, they will be nice additions to a 3-4 line and nothing more, Nash has the potential to be a top 10 G producer.

By your math why don't the Hawks trade Kane (66 pts) to the Sabres for Derek Roy and Tyler Ennis (78 pts)
If they were signed to decent contracts, it wouldn't be that awful if Kane demanded a trade.

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07-24-2012, 07:33 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
Nash wasn't a game breaking player in CLB either.
That is why I said potential, and scoring 40 goals in CLB is like scoring 50 on a good team, that's pretty game breaking to me.

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07-24-2012, 08:32 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Sir Psycho T View Post
That is why I said potential, and scoring 40 goals in CLB is like scoring 50 on a good team, that's pretty game breaking to me.
Exactly. Nash is highly paid but for good reason. Can anyone name a better power forward in today's game, and one who can score 40 goals plus? Ovy perhaps in the right circumstance ...

If Stan somehow managed to trade for Nash, Hawk fans would be drooling at the possibilities. He goes to Rangers so he is lazy, overpaid and overrated.

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07-24-2012, 10:02 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmericanDream View Post
last years stats

Anisimov and Dubinsky = 72 points

Nash = 59 points

not sure what your math suggests, but 72 is more then 59....

Dubinsky and Anisimov outperformed Nash last year and will again this year as well
That's a weak argument/defense. Same logic can be applied replacing Kane for Nash, and Kane played with stars vs. the crap on CLB.

I think Nash had been over-rated and is overpaid, and he had a horrible year last year in ways that infected the whole club. So at that point, nearly any any decent deal is addition by subtraction. But he's valued on projection, and I wouldn't use 59 points as a baseline for him outside of CLB. I can easily see him thriving in NY - never to his cap hit but a much better player than we've seen the last few years. As for Dubinsky and "What? What I do", let's see how they do with more minutes but way less support.

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07-24-2012, 10:25 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by BobbyJet View Post
Exactly. Nash is highly paid but for good reason. Can anyone name a better power forward in today's game, and one who can score 40 goals plus? Ovy perhaps in the right circumstance ...

If Stan somehow managed to trade for Nash, Hawk fans would be drooling at the possibilities. He goes to Rangers so he is lazy, overpaid and overrated.
I can drool at what he could to with the Hawks. But he's what, the 3rd highest paid player in the league. If he were an UFA, would I want the Hawks to give him a 6-yr, $7.8m cap hit contract? Probably not, but I could talk myself into it as a fan. I don't think you smartly use that amount of cap space to address a strength, but at least they're using that cap space. But to give up major assets to get him? Plus you've set the bar for Toews and Kane a lot higher when the go UFA.

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07-25-2012, 01:02 AM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Psycho T View Post
That is why I said potential, and scoring 40 goals in CLB is like scoring 50 on a good team, that's pretty game breaking to me.
Hell, the ABC Line was a legit Top6 line, no doubt. Just wait and see what those players will do on OTT & SJ & PHI when they actually have to play with talented players on a good roster

when you are the only guy that can score, it could also be looked at screwed numbers

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07-25-2012, 01:43 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Bubba88 View Post
Hell, the ABC Line was a legit Top6 line, no doubt. Just wait and see what those players will do on OTT & SJ & PHI when they actually have to play with talented players on a good roster

when you are the only guy that can score, it could also be looked at screwed numbers
The fact that your brought up the ABC line to compare to Nash shows you have 0 clue what your talking about.

The ABC line was considered good because guys like you thought they where the 2nd coming when they had 1 half decent season.

When did Arnson, Bell or Calder ever score more then 30 goals, Nash worse non rookie goal total is better then the best years of any of the ABC guys, hell Nash has the same amount of career goals as those 3 combined.

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07-25-2012, 03:17 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by LarmerSavardSecord View Post
That's a weak argument/defense. Same logic can be applied replacing Kane for Nash, and Kane played with stars vs. the crap on CLB.

I think Nash had been over-rated and is overpaid, and he had a horrible year last year in ways that infected the whole club. So at that point, nearly any any decent deal is addition by subtraction. But he's valued on projection, and I wouldn't use 59 points as a baseline for him outside of CLB. I can easily see him thriving in NY - never to his cap hit but a much better player than we've seen the last few years. As for Dubinsky and "What? What I do", let's see how they do with more minutes but way less support.
1st bolded part,,,,really?

tell that to Billy Beane... that is how you build teams. you can succeed with giving up a 30 goal scorer who hits around 60 points a year, and replace him with two players that will hit almost the same amount of goals but help out more on the points sheet. It is common sense and allows the BJ's to score more goals then they would have with Nash. In todays game, BALANCE is king...balance from multiple lines takes teams far into the playoffs.

2nd bolded part....I dont think you understand how this works and what I was trying to say....trading a 1 for 1 was not in the cards for the BJ's, as they wanted depth, but when you get into multiple players for 1 guy, then you see just how more balanced a team can be if done correctly....see the Lindros/Quebec trade for proof.

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07-25-2012, 03:34 PM
  #116
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I like the direction Columbus is going in actually, they've got a nice D core coming along. They lack high end skill still, on the wings imo, but they're getting there.

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07-25-2012, 03:46 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by AmericanDream View Post
1st bolded part,,,,really?

tell that to Billy Beane... that is how you build teams. you can succeed with giving up a 30 goal scorer who hits around 60 points a year, and replace him with two players that will hit almost the same amount of goals but help out more on the points sheet. It is common sense and allows the BJ's to score more goals then they would have with Nash. In todays game, BALANCE is king...balance from multiple lines takes teams far into the playoffs.

2nd bolded part....I dont think you understand how this works and what I was trying to say....trading a 1 for 1 was not in the cards for the BJ's, as they wanted depth, but when you get into multiple players for 1 guy, then you see just how more balanced a team can be if done correctly....see the Lindros/Quebec trade for proof.
when did billy bean succeed? He never even won a playoff series, much less a ws.

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07-25-2012, 05:03 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by MagicSlap View Post
I like the direction Columbus is going in actually, they've got a nice D core coming along. They lack high end skill still, on the wings imo, but they're getting there.
A few of us think the deal was a fair one for both sides. A good deal between teams with different immediate goals. BJ's were not going to get much more than what they got up front and Erixon may be the wild card for them. NYR meanwhile are a top team by anyones standards and a rejuvenated Nash could put them over the top.

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07-25-2012, 06:16 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Sir Psycho T View Post
The fact that your brought up the ABC line to compare to Nash shows you have 0 clue what your talking about.

The ABC line was considered good because guys like you thought they where the 2nd coming when they had 1 half decent season.

When did Arnson, Bell or Calder ever score more then 30 goals, Nash worse non rookie goal total is better then the best years of any of the ABC guys, hell Nash has the same amount of career goals as those 3 combined.
Nash is better than them, no doubt about it. In the end, you can't say he scored 30 goals on a bad team, will easily score 40+ goals on a good team with Richards as his Center.
More depth, more parity and more players that can score. Maybe he only scores 27 goals?

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07-25-2012, 07:33 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Bubba88 View Post
Nash is better than them, no doubt about it. In the end, you can't say he scored 30 goals on a bad team, will easily score 40+ goals on a good team with Richards as his Center.
More depth, more parity and more players that can score. Maybe he only scores 27 goals?
Line-mates that can get him the puck, more depth also means he might not be the sole focus of the defense that night. In Columbus teams went in with 1 goal, STOP NASH!, now he is on a team that has multiple players for an opponent to focus on. You also act is if there is only a finite number of goals to be scored, there isn't the Rangers will probably score more goals and most of them will probably be scored by Nash.

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07-26-2012, 12:00 AM
  #121
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when did billy bean succeed? He never even won a playoff series, much less a ws.
are you kidding me?

the guy is a freaken genius and has done more with snot then anyone walking this earth...

to say why hasnt billy beane succeeded and using playoff results as measure of that is simply retarded.

the man has been the most handicapped GM in all of sports for the past decade, and more times then not he gets his teams either over 500 or into the playoffs....and is doing so again this year with a payroll a quarter that of the Yankess....yep, a freaken quarter of that payroll....

his success is measured by the fact that nearly all major league ball clubs use a system that he help implement over a decade ago.... yeah, what a real turd he is

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07-26-2012, 12:22 AM
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmericanDream View Post
1st bolded part,,,,really?

tell that to Billy Beane... that is how you build teams. you can succeed with giving up a 30 goal scorer who hits around 60 points a year, and replace him with two players that will hit almost the same amount of goals but help out more on the points sheet. It is common sense and allows the BJ's to score more goals then they would have with Nash. In todays game, BALANCE is king...balance from multiple lines takes teams far into the playoffs.

2nd bolded part....I dont think you understand how this works and what I was trying to say....trading a 1 for 1 was not in the cards for the BJ's, as they wanted depth, but when you get into multiple players for 1 guy, then you see just how more balanced a team can be if done correctly....see the Lindros/Quebec trade for proof.
I'm not really against your general view but you keep digging yourself deeper. I conceded CLB is better off anyway under the circumstances. And also that Howson was tied with his trade demands, and that hurt the return. Also of course two players will likely "out-produce" one player given 2x the minutes. And I think his cap hit sucks. My disagreement was you using his 59 pt season as a his value. He's way better than that, a power, near-PPG forward on the right team. So that's that.

But then you bring up Billy Beane. What in the world does that have to do with the NHL? The NHL has a salary cap. The As are as a far from the Hawks, and the MLB as far from the NHL as can be. They require completely different approaches (beyond the basic build from within.)


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07-26-2012, 12:45 AM
  #123
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I'm not really against your general view but you keep digging yourself deeper. I conceded CLB is better off anyway under the circumstances. And also that Howson was tied with his trade demands, and that hurt the return. Also of course two players will likely "out-produce" one player given 2x the minutes. And I think his cap hit sucks. My disagreement was you using his 59 pt season as a his value. He's way better than that, a power, near-PPG forward on the right team. So that's that.

But then you bring up Billy Beane. What in the world does that have to do with the NHL? The NHL has a salary cap. The As are as a far from the Hawks, and the MLB as far from the NHL as can be. They require completely different approaches (beyond the basic build from within.)
first bolded part:it is common sense, yet some on here simply dont understand that. the value that the Blue Jackets got back is more then fair with their situation, and the 2 prime pieces will outproduce Nash...and the bottom line is when making deals is to replace the production you just sent out the door, and the BJ's easily will, and likely be better overall for it.


second bolded part: where do these imaginary numbers come from??

his 59 points might not have been his best year, but he has only put up more then 69 points 1 time in his career....I just dont understand how some people think this guy is going to go from a consistent 60 point player to an 80 point player all of a sudden....its kind of unrealistic especially with his style of play as a power forward..

third bolded part: Billy Beane is like Chuck Norris, he is the answer to every situation. this isnt MLB, thanks for that info, but the way that man has built teams and the logic he uses in making deals is 100% relevant to here salary cap or not...it is all about PRODUCTION and not money...

Billy Beane makes sure that whatever he loses in trades or free agency, he replaces that player or players with others who can produce at a similar or even better overall number... and dont for one second think that there arent gm's in hockey that build teams using Beanes strategy...hockey or baseball it doesnt matter, its all about numbers, and the BJ's will have the better of this trade on numbers alone.

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07-26-2012, 05:18 AM
  #124
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Somebody apparently got all their info on beane from a certain Brad Pitt movie. Btw, I can dismantle your entire argument with one point. You're comparing 2 players to one. Nash+3rd liner its more points than anisimov and dubinsky. The only reason the bjs traded him is because he demanded to be traded. Your"logic" is really just nonsensical ramblings.

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07-26-2012, 03:51 PM
  #125
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Somebody apparently got all their info on beane from a certain Brad Pitt movie. Btw, I can dismantle your entire argument with one point. You're comparing 2 players to one. Nash+3rd liner its more points than anisimov and dubinsky. The only reason the bjs traded him is because he demanded to be traded. Your"logic" is really just nonsensical ramblings.
dont need a movie when I lived through it....remember everything that man did during that time frame and was amazed then as I still am now as to how he built his teams.

that still doesnt dismantle my theory as it isnt even a theory....its fact. dont make up trades, just go by the one that was actually made.... the Bluejackets will get more production from the players they got in return for Rick Nash.... I really cant believe there is an argument to this...

look at the Staal trade with Carolina....the pens might lose out this first year in production as the pick (Pouliot) and Dumoulin might not be ready this year, but when all the pieces are in the NHL, does anyone really wonder how this deal will turn out in the Pens favor??

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