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Old
07-24-2012, 07:33 AM
  #201
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Originally Posted by Digable5 View Post
I know a lot of teams are concerned about the ill will an RFA offer sheet will cause, but if this is the terms Kane is pondering from the Jets, GMs ought to be sending him a contract. I know Winnipeg is likely to match, but that's a steal for Kane. At least drive up the price a bit. Enough of this unwritten rule nonsense. Its part of the rules, and if we don't do it someone will as we've seen with Weber. If we want to improve the team we need to take some risk in the free agent market. Make a run at Kane and if Winnipeg matches you're taking cap dollars away from a competitor. People think if we offer sheet Kane we should expect the same for Ennis. But what if we don't offer sheet Kane and someone still offer sheets Ennis? I don't think we should make moves(or not make moves in this case) out of fear.
I say offer sheet away...it's incentive for teams to sign up their RFAs before it gets to the point where other teams can retaliate and offer sheet yours. Then you leave one RFA exposed that you wanted to get rid of anyway and hopefully someone offer sheets him.

Yeah, I've got this figured out.

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07-24-2012, 07:41 AM
  #202
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Originally Posted by GrigsAndGirgs View Post
I think you're simplifying Nashville's decision making process too much.

I do believe they have the money. But I also do believe that they would rather not spend 26M in the next 12 months. If they can get a good return that will improve their team without costing that much, they will explore that--it is the only reason why they wouldn't have said anything one way or the other by now. I do not believe it takes 7 days to make a decision on whether they can afford it. If that was the only consideration, we'd know by now which team Weber is suiting up for next year.
I might be. But I also think the convoluted trade scenarios are over complicating things that much more too.

I guess we'll find out in a couple days.

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07-24-2012, 08:38 AM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Digable5 View Post
I know a lot of teams are concerned about the ill will an RFA offer sheet will cause, but if this is the terms Kane is pondering from the Jets, GMs ought to be sending him a contract. I know Winnipeg is likely to match, but that's a steal for Kane. At least drive up the price a bit. Enough of this unwritten rule nonsense. Its part of the rules, and if we don't do it someone will as we've seen with Weber. If we want to improve the team we need to take some risk in the free agent market. Make a run at Kane and if Winnipeg matches you're taking cap dollars away from a competitor. People think if we offer sheet Kane we should expect the same for Ennis. But what if we don't offer sheet Kane and someone still offer sheets Ennis? I don't think we should make moves(or not make moves in this case) out of fear.
Teams aren't sending Kane an offer sheet because they don't want to bark up the wrong tree. Winnipeg's ownership--richer than Pegula--has the wherewithal to match any offer sheet, and then turn around and make your life miserable now or later. You can minimize it all you want, but there's been retaliatory offer sheets in the past and Winnipeg could throw an organization's desired salary structure out the window. If I were Winnipeg, I'd match Buffalo's OS, and immediately call Ennis' agent and offer him 4yrs, $24m, which I'm sure is far and away above anything that Buffalo's currently offering. If the Sabres match, fine, but I just gave Ennis a contract that'll allow him to be UFA when it expires (one of Darcy's biggest concerns), and made Buffalo pay more than double what they likely wanted to for Ennis.

There's strategy involved in offer sheets. San Jose signed Hjalmarsson to an offer sheet to weaken its chief rival at the time. Philadelphia structured Weber's offer sheet in such a way that Philly would either get Weber or Nashville would match and not want to trade him at any point in the next six years because of the money sunk into him, thereby depriving Philly's EC rivals of almost any chance to obtain him.

I don't see any strategy in signing Kane to an OS, other than swatting a hornets' nest.

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07-24-2012, 08:41 AM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
I might be. But I also think the convoluted trade scenarios are over complicating things that much more too.

I guess we'll find out in a couple days.
What a guess.
You`re "The Mentalist"

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07-24-2012, 10:05 AM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
Except that it did with Shayne Corson. And how does Bettman have that authority? Because, yes, commissioners are mini-kings and can do pretty much whatever they damn well please if it's in the best interests of the game--a right that is always reserved to every commissioner.
1. what happened with Shayne Corson?

2. Of course Bettman can't do whatever he wants. There are league rules that he has to follow. Like, "have a draft, follow the CBA, this is how you process trades...." And if there's a rule in the CBA that talks about a player not being traded while there's an offer sheet that they've signed, then Bettman can't just make up rules that say, well, you can trade the player as long as you do it formally on a separate sheet of paper."

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07-24-2012, 10:19 AM
  #206
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
1. what happened with Shayne Corson?

2. Of course Bettman can't do whatever he wants. There are league rules that he has to follow. Like, "have a draft, follow the CBA, this is how you process trades...." And if there's a rule in the CBA that talks about a player not being traded while there's an offer sheet that they've signed, then Bettman can't just make up rules that say, well, you can trade the player as long as you do it formally on a separate sheet of paper."
Assuming the facts of our hypothetical that the parties agreed, in writing, to make such a trade conditioned on the Predators' refusal to match the terms of the offer sheet, and then Philadelphia turned around and reneged, that Bettman would come down on them hard and put the trade through? Come on.

Again, it's moot, because the Flyers' organization wouldn't pull such a childish stunt. But the commissioner has a lot more power than you may believe.

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07-24-2012, 11:05 AM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
Assuming the facts of our hypothetical that the parties agreed, in writing, to make such a trade conditioned on the Predators' refusal to match the terms of the offer sheet, and then Philadelphia turned around and reneged, that Bettman would come down on them hard and put the trade through? Come on.

Again, it's moot, because the Flyers' organization wouldn't pull such a childish stunt. But the commissioner has a lot more power than you may believe.
I guess I think like a lawyer and don't really have any respect for arguments that just go "of course the boss man will do the sensible thing" without any consideration of whether or not it violates the terms of the CBA.

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07-24-2012, 11:45 AM
  #208
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My thought is that since the offersheet HASN'T been matched yet, it likely won't. You would think the Predators would have AT LEAST announced they were matching to calm the fan base, even if they intended to tie up the money for a week.

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07-24-2012, 12:02 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
I guess I think like a lawyer and don't really have any respect for arguments that just go "of course the boss man will do the sensible thing" without any consideration of whether or not it violates the terms of the CBA.
Then research like a lawyer and look up "Best Interests of the Game." The Commissioners have broad powers. I can't believe we're still arguing over whether the Flyers could pull such a childish stunt after agreeing to a second trade. It's definitely summer time on HF.

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07-24-2012, 12:06 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
Then research like a lawyer and look up "Best Interests of the Game." The Commissioners have broad powers. I can't believe we're still arguing over whether the Flyers could pull such a childish stunt after agreeing to a second trade. It's definitely summer time on HF.
I'm not even arguing it purely for the sake of whether or not the Flyers could do it, like I said, I'm arguing it because I haven't heard anything that suggests that the trade would be legal in the first place. And if you've already done this research and have something of value to share, please share it!

EDIT: BTW, if you're arguing (still without citing anything) that Gary Bettman has the power to do anything he wants as long as he determines it to be in the best interests of the game, regardless of whether or not it's in the league's bylaws, then what would stop him from quashing the trade to begin with, seeing as it's an obvious attempt to circumvent the rule that you can't trade players who've signed offersheets?

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07-24-2012, 12:28 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by GirgsAndGrigs View Post
My thought is that since the offersheet HASN'T been matched yet, it likely won't. You would think the Predators would have AT LEAST announced they were matching to calm the fan base, even if they intended to tie up the money for a week.
I do believe Poile said they would match any offer sheet, though I don't remember if that was before or after Weber signed his.

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07-24-2012, 12:45 PM
  #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrigsAndGirgs View Post
I do believe Poile said they would match any offer sheet, though I don't remember if that was before or after Weber signed his.
It was before. They released a statement saying they are 'looking at the offersheet due to the complexity of it" or some sort of wording. I haven't seen anything from them since.

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07-24-2012, 01:14 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
I'm not even arguing it purely for the sake of whether or not the Flyers could do it, like I said, I'm arguing it because I haven't heard anything that suggests that the trade would be legal in the first place. And if you've already done this research and have something of value to share, please share it!
Why wouldn't the trade be legal? The parties would agree in writing that, conditioned on Nashville's refusal to match the terms of the Offer Sheet, they've agreed to return some or all of the encumbered draft picks to Philadelphia in exchange for Players A, B, and C. That writing would thereafter be forwarded (likely faxed) to NHL's Central Registry, at which time the writing would be in the League's hands.

Done deal once the condition (Nashville's refusal to match) is satisfied.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
EDIT: BTW, if you're arguing (still without citing anything) that Gary Bettman has the power to do anything he wants as long as he determines it to be in the best interests of the game, regardless of whether or not it's in the league's bylaws, then what would stop him from quashing the trade to begin with, seeing as it's an obvious attempt to circumvent the rule that you can't trade players who've signed offersheets?
It is in the NHL Consitution, which is what I've been suggesting all along. You want cites?

Quote:
ARTICLE VI- COMMISSIONER

...

(b) Dispute Resolution. The Commissioner shall have the full and exclusive jurisdiction and authority to arbitrate and resolve:

(1) any dispute that involves two or more Member Clubs of the League or two or more holders of an ownership interest in a Member Club of the League;
...
(5) any dispute involving a Member Club or Clubs, or any players or employees of the League or any Member Club or Clubs, or any combination thereof, that in the opinion of the Commissioner is detrimental to the best interests of the League or professional hockey or involves or affects League policy.
In practice, the dispute is between Nashville and Philadelphia. He could also cite to subsection (5) for the "best interests of the League" clause. Thus, it's in Bettman's hands.

And if that language doesn't hammer it home enough for you:

Quote:
...the authority of the Commissioner to arbitrate disputes pursuant to this provision shall be binding to the same extent as if the parties had entered into a form arbitration agreement and the decision of the Commissioner shall be final and binding on all parties and shall not be subject to any review

In other words, he can hear the evidence of Nashville's and Philadelphia's agreed-upon trade--assuming, again, our hypo that Philly has agreed to it in writing and then attempts to back out of the deal--and then will likely decide the parties had an agreement, and he'll resolve the dispute. That is, he'll put the trade through.

And how can he discipline Philadelphia for such shenanigans?

Quote:
(j) Disciplinary Powers of the Commissioner.

(1) Whenever the Commissioner shall determine, based upon such information and reports as he may deem sufficient, that any person connected with the League or a Member Club has either violated the Constitution, By-Laws, or any other governing rule or regulation of the League, or has been or is guilty of conduct detrimental to the League or the game of hockey, he shall have full and complete authority to discipline such person in any or all of the following respects:

....

(d) if the conduct in question affects the competitive aspects of the game, by awarding or transferring players and/or draft choices and/or depriving the offending Member Club of draft choices
Judge. Jury. Executioner.

Again, it gets better:

Quote:
(3) In all cases involving player discipline and/or the integrity of the game of hockey and public confidence in the League, the Commissioners determinations under this Section shall be final and not subject to any review. In all other cases, the Commissioner's determinations shall be final, except...imposition of a penalty provided for in subsection 1(d), whereupon an aggrieved party may appeal the Commissioner's determination to the full Board of Governors.
I see that going reeeeal well for the Flyers. As Rob Paxon put it, it'd be luck mugging a dude in a world where the population is 30. Good luck, Philly. The BoG ain't reversing Bettman on that.

After reading all that, I don't know how you can't concede that Bettman (a) could if he so chooses--and under our hypo, he would so choose--to require the agreed-upon transfer of assets from Philly to Nashville in exchange for Philly's draft picks; and (b) punish the Flyers for such an underhanded move.

Thanks for wasting 45 minutes of my life to give you your cites.

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07-24-2012, 01:26 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by GirgsAndGrigs View Post
My thought is that since the offersheet HASN'T been matched yet, it likely won't. You would think the Predators would have AT LEAST announced they were matching to calm the fan base, even if they intended to tie up the money for a week.
Maybe, maybe not. NBA teams often don't make a decision one way or another until the final day, though in that case they could be working on a sign and trade, which of course cannot be done in the NHL. Poile has until Wednesday night, so he might as well use all of his time and see if Philly will flinch and offer one of Schenn or Couturier in exchange for some/all of the picks in return.

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07-24-2012, 01:49 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
Why wouldn't the trade be legal? The parties would agree in writing that, conditioned on Nashville's refusal to match the terms of the Offer Sheet, they've agreed to return some or all of the encumbered draft picks to Philadelphia in exchange for Players A, B, and C. That writing would thereafter be forwarded (likely faxed) to NHL's Central Registry, at which time the writing would be in the League's hands.

Done deal once the condition (Nashville's refusal to match) is satisfied.



It is in the NHL Consitution, which is what I've been suggesting all along. You want cites?



In practice, the dispute is between Nashville and Philadelphia. He could also cite to subsection (5) for the "best interests of the League" clause. Thus, it's in Bettman's hands.

And if that language doesn't hammer it home enough for you:




In other words, he can hear the evidence of Nashville's and Philadelphia's agreed-upon trade--assuming, again, our hypo that Philly has agreed to it in writing and then attempts to back out of the deal--and then will likely decide the parties had an agreement, and he'll resolve the dispute. That is, he'll put the trade through.

And how can he discipline Philadelphia for such shenanigans?



Judge. Jury. Executioner.

Again, it gets better:



I see that going reeeeal well for the Flyers. As Rob Paxon put it, it'd be luck mugging a dude in a world where the population is 30. Good luck, Philly. The BoG ain't reversing Bettman on that.

After reading all that, I don't know how you can't concede that Bettman (a) could if he so chooses--and under our hypo, he would so choose--to require the agreed-upon transfer of assets from Philly to Nashville in exchange for Philly's draft picks; and (b) punish the Flyers for such an underhanded move.

Thanks for wasting 45 minutes of my life to give you your cites.
Thanks! That definitely answers the question of what Bettman can do in a situation where the trade has been agreed to and reneged on. You didn't have to do that, but I appreciate it and think that's really informative and helpful.

I'm still curious, though, why Bettman wouldn't nix a proposed Philly-Nash deal in the first place, since it plainly exists to underhandedly circumvent a rule already in place. Isn't it also in the best interests of the game to preserve the integrity of the rules in place regarding trading players who've been signed to offersheets?

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07-24-2012, 02:10 PM
  #216
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Predators have matched.

http://predators.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=638547

Quote:
Nashville, Tenn. (July 24, 2012) – In the most important hockey transaction in franchise history, Nashville Predators Chairman Tom Cigarran, President of Hockey Operations/General Manager David Poile and CEO Jeff Cogen announced today that the team has matched the 14-year, $110 million offer sheet between the Philadelphia Flyers and defenseman Shea Weber, insuring that the Predators' captain will remain with the franchise for the next 14 years.

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07-24-2012, 02:13 PM
  #217
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Philly gonna drop 9 on Doan

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07-24-2012, 02:14 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
Thanks! That definitely answers the question of what Bettman can do in a situation where the trade has been agreed to and reneged on. You didn't have to do that, but I appreciate it and think that's really informative and helpful.

I'm still curious, though, why Bettman wouldn't nix a proposed Philly-Nash deal in the first place, since it plainly exists to underhandedly circumvent a rule already in place. Isn't it also in the best interests of the game to preserve the integrity of the rules in place regarding trading players who've been signed to offersheets?
The league doesn't get involved in the trade until after both parties agree to terms and call the league office for the trade call. Then, all terms are reviewed, and NHL official makes sure there are no cap problems or issues with trading the assets/players.

Only then is the trade final.

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07-24-2012, 02:14 PM
  #219
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So now Philly picks Doan or Ryan.

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07-24-2012, 02:16 PM
  #220
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So now Philly picks Doan or Ryan.
If they wouldn't give up Schenn or Couturier for Nash, I doubt they will for Ryan.

And if neither of those two is going to Anaheim, why do the Ducks make a deal with the Flyers?

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07-24-2012, 02:18 PM
  #221
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If they wouldn't give up Schenn or Couturier for Nash, I doubt they will for Ryan.

And if neither of those two is going to Anaheim, why do the Ducks make a deal with the Flyers?
Why would it take those players to get Ryan? The Sabres sure dont have that to give. If thats the asking price then we arent even in it.

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07-24-2012, 02:19 PM
  #222
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Originally Posted by SabresAreScaryGood View Post
Why would it take those players to get Ryan? The Sabres sure dont have that to give. If thats the asking price then we arent even in it.
The Sabres haven't been in it for some time.

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07-24-2012, 02:20 PM
  #223
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Good for Nashville. If Weber wanted out, signing an offer sheet wasn't smart.

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07-24-2012, 02:21 PM
  #224
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Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
Thus making any trade discussion now completely moot.

Though I still believe the reason for the wait was to try and work out a compensation trade with the Flyers, which they were unable to do.

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07-24-2012, 02:23 PM
  #225
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Why would it take those players to get Ryan? The Sabres sure dont have that to give. If thats the asking price then we arent even in it.
Bobby Ryan is a very good young winger who has more goals over the past 3 years than Rick Nash does and he costs less.

Anaheim will want a sizable package for Ryan. They also have a big need for a center behind Getzlaf.

If they aren't getting a player of the caliber of Schenn or Couturier, why move Ryan?

And my hope for Bobby Ryan coming to Buffalo has been dead for a while because I don't see Regier trading the type of players that Anaheim will demand in return.

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