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Old
07-24-2012, 03:14 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Sigh, get to listen to the fanbase trying to trade half the team for a 30 goal scorer.
I'm going to gouge my eyes out. We have no need to trade for this guy. There's no point.

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07-24-2012, 03:40 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
Do you think the Ducks would take Giroux, Schenn, Couturier and our firsts until 2027 for Ryan?

Would Ducks fans find this acceptable?
If he were from Central Jersey, maybe. But dude...he's from Cherry Hill!

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07-24-2012, 06:06 PM
  #53
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Most Ducks fans are just being stupid. That's a pretty awesome package, particularly for someone who doesn't want to be there.

Then again, I can't tell them what to like.

I can promise you this. If Couturier and Schenn(s) weren't traded for Weber, then they're not going to Anaheim for Ryan. People think that just because we have shiny assets, they deserve those assets for whatever player that might be traded here. It's a problematic endeavor. If you want to be stubborn and overreach your value, you get burned in the end. Look at where Nashville stands.
Pretty strong words there. Perhaps you've failed to notice WHY the Flyers are so interested in Ryan. Probably for the same reasons you value Couturier and Schenn. Is it so unreasonable to suggest that in order to trade our most talented and promising young goal scorer we would like to have another talented and promising young player in return? Is that "stupid"?

Also, has it occurred to you that Ryan's contention that he "doesn't want to be here" is frustration or youth or simply intentional posturing to force the Ducks to announce their intentions where he's concerned. That's exactly how it sounded to me. And as far as the organization is concerned, Ryan can complain all he wants about not wanting to be here but none of that necessitates that they trade him for less than he's worth. (See: Bryzgalov)

We're not Columbus.

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07-24-2012, 06:17 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
I'm going to gouge my eyes out. We have no need to trade for this guy. There's no point.
Why is there no need/point? There's always a point. More goalscoring. Aside from the glamorous headline of him coming home, he brings elite scoring. Half of the people on flyers HF see no need for Nash, Ryan, Semin, etc. because we were 2nd in the league last season in points scored. But the other half realize that it was mainly depth scoring, and it's not reliable. We have an elite center, who's 24 years old, and has no elite wingers. He scored 93 points last season in 77 games. The next closest scorer was his winger, who had 67 points in 82 games.

Depth is nice to have. So is talent around your young superstar.

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07-24-2012, 06:20 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by High Glove View Post
Pretty strong words there. Perhaps you've failed to notice WHY the Flyers are so interested in Ryan. Probably for the same reasons you value Couturier and Schenn. Is it so unreasonable to suggest that in order to trade our most talented and promising young goal scorer we would like to have another talented and promising young player in return? Is that "stupid"?
You just likened Ryan to the same value or reason why we value Couturier or Schenn.

So are you suggesting that if Couturier was quoted in the media as wanting out I wouldn't accept a 22-year-old proven top 6 winger, a 25-year-old proven top 4 defenseman, and a 1st for him?

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07-24-2012, 06:25 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
Why is there no need/point? There's always a point. More goalscoring. Aside from the glamorous headline of him coming home, he brings elite scoring. Half of the people on flyers HF see no need for Nash, Ryan, Semin, etc. because we were 2nd in the league last season in points scored. But the other half realize that it was mainly depth scoring, and it's not reliable. We have an elite center, who's 24 years old, and has no elite wingers. He scored 93 points last season in 77 games. The next closest scorer was his winger, who had 67 points in 82 games.

Depth is nice to have. So is talent around your young superstar.
We already have depth. We don't need to lessen it to "bring a guy home." If he wants to come home he can do it in FA. Right now we can get Semin for a year or two without giving up assets. He's got issues, but we don't lose players or picks to get him.

On top of that, our defense is a need, not offense. If we're going to give up assets it needs to be for D, not Ryan. It makes zero sense to use assets for Ryan when they should be used on an actual need.

Edit: Also, does everybody forget that Hartnell has been a 30ish goal scorer for much of his career, and nearly cracked 40 playing with Giroux? It's not like he has zero wingers.

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07-24-2012, 06:26 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by High Glove View Post
We're not Columbus.
This is true, but the Ducks only have the Oilers between them and a fight for last place with Columbus.

For your sake, I hope Perry and Getzlaf don't seek greener pastures or that the Ducks are out of playoff contention post all-star break. I do not want them in the East unless they are in orange and black.

Not being a jerk here-- I want to see the Ducks compete. They're only 7 and 1/2 wins away from being Columbus and 7 1/2 points from getting the last spot in the West.

Not Columbus, sure, but flying in coach together, absolutely.

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07-24-2012, 06:34 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
We already have depth. We don't need to lessen it to "bring a guy home." If he wants to come home he can do it in FA. Right now we can get Semin for a year or two without giving up assets. He's got issues, but we don't lose players or picks to get him.

On top of that, our defense is a need, not offense. If we're going to give up assets it needs to be for D, not Ryan. It makes zero sense to use assets for Ryan when they should be used on an actual need.

Edit: Also, does everybody forget that Hartnell has been a 30ish goal scorer for much of his career, and nearly cracked 40 playing with Giroux? It's not like he has zero wingers.
I'm not buying that we need defense. We have a talented group who need to put their big boy pants on, realize Uncle Pronger isn't there to guide them, and play their system to perfection. Would Weber have been great? Absolutely. You never pass up that opportunity if it's there for the taking. I'm glad Homer took the chance, but our D as is should be fine.

As to your edit, I mentioned Hartnell in my original post. You help prove my point. Take a good career player and stick him with Giroux and he'll light it up. That's always been the contradictory response..."no we don't need Nash/Ryan/etc because we have no idea if he'll play well with Giroux, and we have Scott Hartnell, why do we need those guys?" Cmon now. 67 points next to a 93 point center, I understand he only played there 7/8ths the season, and it was a career high, but we need higher totals than that from our "elite" wingers

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07-24-2012, 06:44 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
I'm not buying that we need defense. We have a talented group who need to put their big boy pants on, realize Uncle Pronger isn't there to guide them, and play their system to perfection. Would Weber have been great? Absolutely. You never pass up that opportunity if it's there for the taking. I'm glad Homer took the chance, but our D as is should be fine.

As to your edit, I mentioned Hartnell in my original post. You help prove my point. Take a good career player and stick him with Giroux and he'll light it up. That's always been the contradictory response..."no we don't need Nash/Ryan/etc because we have no idea if he'll play well with Giroux, and we have Scott Hartnell, why do we need those guys?" Cmon now. 67 points next to a 93 point center, I understand he only played there 7/8ths the season, and it was a career high, but we need higher totals than that from our "elite" wingers
Do you honestly believe that this is a championship caliber defense? I think we have a very deep defense, but it's incredibly heavy on number 4 defenseman. Coburn and Timmonen could pass for a number 2, but neither really are at this point. Playoff Coburn is a number 2... but who knows which you get consistently. Timmonen can't handle top 2 minutes anymore. Grossmann, Mez and Schenn are 4-5 guys. Bourdon, Gus, Gervais, etc are 6-7 guys.

The numbers just aren't there to support this defense being good unless our forwards play a heck of a lot more defense than they did at any point besides March last season.

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07-24-2012, 06:54 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
I'm not buying that we need defense. We have a talented group who need to put their big boy pants on, realize Uncle Pronger isn't there to guide them, and play their system to perfection. Would Weber have been great? Absolutely. You never pass up that opportunity if it's there for the taking. I'm glad Homer took the chance, but our D as is should be fine.

As to your edit, I mentioned Hartnell in my original post. You help prove my point. Take a good career player and stick him with Giroux and he'll light it up. That's always been the contradictory response..."no we don't need Nash/Ryan/etc because we have no idea if he'll play well with Giroux, and we have Scott Hartnell, why do we need those guys?" Cmon now. 67 points next to a 93 point center, I understand he only played there 7/8ths the season, and it was a career high, but we need higher totals than that from our "elite" wingers
You don't buy that we need defense? We don't have a real number 1 defenseman. Currently, our offense is likely good enough to drive for a Cup. Our defense is far from being at that level, barring some surprises. We don't have a #1, or anybody who looks like they could fill that role. What teams post lockout have won it all with Ds like that?

Ryan is not a need. Also...it's not like he's playing on lines with bums right not.

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07-24-2012, 07:55 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite View Post
Do you honestly believe that this is a championship caliber defense? I think we have a very deep defense, but it's incredibly heavy on number 4 defenseman. Coburn and Timmonen could pass for a number 2, but neither really are at this point. Playoff Coburn is a number 2... but who knows which you get consistently. Timmonen can't handle top 2 minutes anymore. Grossmann, Mez and Schenn are 4-5 guys. Bourdon, Gus, Gervais, etc are 6-7 guys.

The numbers just aren't there to support this defense being good unless our forwards play a heck of a lot more defense than they did at any point besides March last season.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
You don't buy that we need defense? We don't have a real number 1 defenseman. Currently, our offense is likely good enough to drive for a Cup. Our defense is far from being at that level, barring some surprises. We don't have a #1, or anybody who looks like they could fill that role. What teams post lockout have won it all with Ds like that?

Ryan is not a need. Also...it's not like he's playing on lines with bums right not.
Did the Devils have a championship defense? They had a championship system. Their top defenseman of the playoffs just resigned for under $2m/y. I'd argue that the Kings didn't have a championship defense. I agree with you BSE, that Kimmo and Coburn are 2's, Mez, Gross, and Schenn are 3-5s, and our gaggle of 6's fighting for that spot are indeed 6-7s. I don't think that's nearly as bad as it's being made out to be. We made the Cup 2 years ago with Lukas Krajicek and Ryan Parent as a 3rd pairing, and Michael Leighton in net. Even with Pronger on that D, I'd take our defense today over that one. They just need to play the system correctly, and play simple, no mistake hockey.

Ryan spent most of 2011 being bounced all over the lineup, but yes, he spent a lot of time with Getz and Perry over the last 5 years.

Two weeks ago, I would have been thrilled with this lineup and ready to call it a summer if we landed Doan. I think the Weber saga made all of us greedy again. Now that that's over, I'm content with getting Doan and sitting tight.

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07-24-2012, 08:00 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
Did the Devils have a championship defense? They had a championship system. Their top defenseman of the playoffs just resigned for under $2m/y. I'd argue that the Kings didn't have a championship defense. I agree with you BSE, that Kimmo and Coburn are 2's, Mez, Gross, and Schenn are 3-5s, and our gaggle of 6's fighting for that spot are indeed 6-7s. I don't think that's nearly as bad as it's being made out to be. We made the Cup 2 years ago with Lukas Krajicek and Ryan Parent as a 3rd pairing, and Michael Leighton in net. Even with Pronger on that D, I'd take our defense today over that one. They just need to play the system correctly, and play simple, no mistake hockey.

Ryan spent most of 2011 being bounced all over the lineup, but yes, he spent a lot of time with Getz and Perry over the last 5 years.

Two weeks ago, I would have been thrilled with this lineup and ready to call it a summer if we landed Doan. I think the Weber saga made all of us greedy again. Now that that's over, I'm content with getting Doan and sitting tight.
Agreed.

Neither the Kings NOR Devils had what I would call, on paper, a "championship" defense.

Both had amazing goalies and amazing systems - which is why they ended up where they did.

If we can get an upgrade - sure, I'm up for it. But I'm not panicing, as disappointed as I am.

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07-25-2012, 01:27 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Most Ducks fans are just being stupid. That's a pretty awesome package, particularly for someone who doesn't want to be there.

Then again, I can't tell them what to like.

I can promise you this. If Couturier and Schenn(s) weren't traded for Weber, then they're not going to Anaheim for Ryan. People think that just because we have shiny assets, they deserve those assets for whatever player that might be traded here. It's a problematic endeavor. If you want to be stubborn and overreach your value, you get burned in the end. Look at where Nashville stands.
So you can't tell us what to like, but you can call us stupid for not liking it.

News flash: Anaheim fans are only trying to make clear to you what their GM has made clear to them. Murray has outright said what he wants, and there is plenty of evidence from other sources that this, in fact, is what he is asking for. Your opinion that it's an awesome package doesn't make it an awesome package for Anaheim. It just means that -you- think it's a worthy price for Ryan. The Ducks are looking to fill very specific holes, if they are going to move Ryan, otherwise they might as well keep him, because there is no downside to Anaheim holding on to him.

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07-25-2012, 03:00 AM
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So you can't tell us what to like, but you can call us stupid for not liking it.

News flash: Anaheim fans are only trying to make clear to you what their GM has made clear to them. Murray has outright said what he wants, and there is plenty of evidence from other sources that this, in fact, is what he is asking for. Your opinion that it's an awesome package doesn't make it an awesome package for Anaheim. It just means that -you- think it's a worthy price for Ryan. The Ducks are looking to fill very specific holes, if they are going to move Ryan, otherwise they might as well keep him, because there is no downside to Anaheim holding on to him.
You realize that you just specifically stated that it has nothing to do with how good the package is but that Anaheim has specific needs that have to fill should a package be sent their way...right?

News flash: That has nothing to do with what I said. Anaheim fans were mocking the package as if it had little to no value. Clearly it has significant value regardless of Anaheim's needs should Ryan be moved.

Just because we don't have the pieces you need despite the inherent value of the package offered, doesn't mean you can ask for better pieces from a different position as substitutes. "Hi, yeah. We need a center, not a wing. So I know Read is probably fair value, but we're going to need Giroux. Cool?" ... "Oh not Giroux? Then those pieces clearly suck and are nowhere near enough value!"

Also keep in mind that I think Read could very easily have a future as a #2 center on another team. He plays very well in the middle from what I've seen of him.

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07-25-2012, 05:57 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Sigh, get to listen to the fanbase trying to trade half the team for a 30 goal scorer.
That's on par with the other half of the fanbase talking about how great an 18 goal scorer is.

Not a knock on Voracek, but while some are overvaluing Ryan, there are just as many overvaluing Voracek.

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07-25-2012, 07:03 AM
  #66
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That's on par with the other half of the fanbase talking about how great an 18 goal scorer is.

Not a knock on Voracek, but while some are overvaluing Ryan, there are just as many overvaluing Voracek.
Only because he wouldn't be the thing moving. Its voracek +

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07-25-2012, 08:58 AM
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Not a knock on Voracek, but while some are overvaluing Ryan, there are just as many overvaluing Voracek.
It makes me feel that Voracek wants to be paid on potential while we want to pay him on what he does/trade him for his potential. The last thing I want is to JVR him, sign him to a deal based on potential, get dissapointed, and trade him for less than he is probably worth.

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07-25-2012, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
You don't buy that we need defense? We don't have a real number 1 defenseman. Currently, our offense is likely good enough to drive for a Cup. Our defense is far from being at that level, barring some surprises. We don't have a #1, or anybody who looks like they could fill that role. What teams post lockout have won it all with Ds like that?

Ryan is not a need. Also...it's not like he's playing on lines with bums right not.
agreed but look at New Jersey...they have no #1 either and they went to the finals. And maybe that #1 can be had later on in the year because I don't see a bunch of guys offering their #1 around right now. But for sure...we do not need to trade assets for another F.

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07-25-2012, 09:57 AM
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It makes me feel that Voracek wants to be paid on potential while we want to pay him on what he does/trade him for his potential. The last thing I want is to JVR him, sign him to a deal based on potential, get dissapointed, and trade him for less than he is probably worth.
The going rate of a young 40-50 point forward is around 4.00m.

JVR was not overpaid according to the market this offseason. He just signed it a year early. He was still getting paid the same amount as everyone else at the same time as everyone else.

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07-25-2012, 10:34 AM
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“@BroadStBull: Homer says he doesn't see a hole on G's RW, and he envisions Voracek playing on that line as RW.#Flyers”

This is what I and many others have said for a long time. If the defense and goaltending are even decent the Flyers have zero need for Ryan given that with the current line-up the Flyers are still a top 10 offense.

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07-25-2012, 10:43 AM
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The going rate of a young 40-50 point forward is around 4.00m.

JVR was not overpaid according to the market this offseason. He just signed it a year early. He was still getting paid the same amount as everyone else at the same time as everyone else.
I still think they signed him based on potential. They expected him to break out, but he could not due to injuries. It was a calculated risk and I understand what you're saying. In reality 4 mil for someone who is young and can get 50 points is very reasonable, but far too often some managers jump the gun and worry about what could happen. We won't really know if JVR is worth the contract until he plays a full season healthy. I just don't want to pay on potential because then you have nothing but criticism that you over paid or they should be traded, etc especially in a cap era. It's added pressure on the player and manager.


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07-25-2012, 11:38 AM
  #72
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agreed but look at New Jersey...they have no #1 either and they went to the finals. And maybe that #1 can be had later on in the year because I don't see a bunch of guys offering their #1 around right now. But for sure...we do not need to trade assets for another F.
They didn't have a #1 and lost to a team that did.

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07-25-2012, 12:26 PM
  #73
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They didn't have a #1 and lost to a team that did.
This. Track back over the last 20 years and assess how many cup winners didn't have a consensus number 1 defenseman.

If losing in the Cup Finals is our goal, then yeah, we might be just fine.

I'm not convinced we have a true number 2 let alone a number 1.

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07-25-2012, 12:36 PM
  #74
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They didn't have a #1 and lost to a team that did.
Who? Doughty? I'm still not convinced he's playing at the level of a #1. And after him, Greene, Scuderi, Drewiske, Martinez, Voynov, and Mitchell....Nothing to really write home about. Solid defensive guys who fit the system. Now we, the Flyers, have solid defensive guys...in an offensive system. That's the biggest hurdle.

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07-25-2012, 12:52 PM
  #75
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The Flyers did not get Shea Weber

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