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Old
07-24-2012, 08:08 AM
  #276
Spawnisen
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I don't it is THAT bad trade for Columbus as many want it to be. Nash was ready to go this offseason, Howson had no other choice. The fact that Nash also had like 3-4 teams on his wish list obviously made it a lot harder. In the end it seemed like Nash only had 1-2 teams left on that list. And the fact that Nash has the contract he has I do think it's an okay return. He obviously was much more valuable to Jackets than he would be for another club, kinda like Koivu or Heatley for us.

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07-24-2012, 08:18 AM
  #277
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Their goaltending is only as bad as their defense, which will be better with Murray. Jack Johnson might actually be a negative though. Of course with Todd Richards they will never have any defensive success.

They gave up quality for quantity. Granted I think Nash is overrated, but there's a reason you don't give up say a 40 goal scorer for four 10 goal scorers or two 20 goal scorers.

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07-24-2012, 08:57 AM
  #278
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Don't really know where to put it so this will do: Tim Freitag wrote an excellent and rational piece on the Owners' CBA proposal over at FRB.

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Old
07-24-2012, 10:47 AM
  #279
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As a couple people have been coming around to, this trade may look bad from a "what did NYR give up" perspective, but look at it from a "what did Columbus receive" angle for a moment.

This team is in desperate need of a rebuild. However, let's look at them closer. Assume the team finishes last in the league this year. Pending the lottery, they get MacKinnon, Jones, Monahan, Shinkaruk, one of that type of guy. They have Johansen already, Calvert has some promise, Jenner is doing fairly well, so they have a decent stable of up and comers. Only one of them (plus their 2013 draft pick, who should be elite) are real high end top line guys, but it's not barren. Anisimov is only 24, and should be a 20 goal scorer minimum (put up 37 in the AHL, his NHL high is 18). Dubinsky is a 26 year old two-time 20 goal scorer. Their forward corps (after adding a top 5 pick in 2013) will be significantly better than Nashville's has ever been.

The blue line is where Columbus has been building though. As big of a joke as that Wiz contract was, he is a legitimate top 4 defenseman. Tyutin is a solid top 4 type guy as well. Jack Johnson looks like the real deal. Maybe he's not a #1 but he should fare well on a top pairing. All three of those guys are signed for 5-6 years. Now add Tim Erixon (who as much as people freak out about, is still a pretty good defensive prospect and would be at the very worst third in our pool) and David Savard to that pool (I don't know anything about John Moore, so maybe add him too?) and that's a pretty formidable blue line going forward.

So the real question is, can either Bob the Goalie or York handle the net for this team in the long run? This team is going to be terrible this year, and should be a lottery pick. But this team has a potential future in front of it if they can get rid of Howson and install someone with half a clue.

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07-24-2012, 10:58 AM
  #280
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Their forward corps MAY be better than Nashville, but Richards is nowhere near Trotz.

What I've seen from Columbus is they are constantly trying to add mid-level veterans (Huselius, Wisniewski, Umberger, Johnson, Commodore) without a number of high end players or a good young corps. They just added one more mid-level player in Dubinsky, two role players in Erixon and Anisimov, and of course a mid-to-late first. So they are still 2-3 years away from really putting together a good stable of young players.

Getting the "top player" as a potential late first round hit means they still won't get any impact players for 3+ years out of this trade, if any. Dubinsky is not an impact player.

So that's why nobody likes this trade...they gave up Nash for a bunch of parts, none of whom are very valuable or productive. Yeah they got a little more depth, but nothing to write home about. It'd be like trading for Clutterbuck, Brodziak, Cuma, and a 1st. A couple nice depth pieces, but nothing to write home about.

He needed to get an impact player in return AND a first, and he only got the first and pieces.

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07-24-2012, 11:18 AM
  #281
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Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
Their forward corps MAY be better than Nashville, but Richards is nowhere near Trotz.

What I've seen from Columbus is they are constantly trying to add mid-level veterans (Huselius, Wisniewski, Umberger, Johnson, Commodore) without a number of high end players or a good young corps. They just added one more mid-level player in Dubinsky, two role players in Erixon and Anisimov, and of course a mid-to-late first. So they are still 2-3 years away from really putting together a good stable of young players.

Getting the "top player" as a potential late first round hit means they still won't get any impact players for 3+ years out of this trade, if any. Dubinsky is not an impact player.

So that's why nobody likes this trade...they gave up Nash for a bunch of parts, none of whom are very valuable or productive. Yeah they got a little more depth, but nothing to write home about. It'd be like trading for Clutterbuck, Brodziak, Cuma, and a 1st. A couple nice depth pieces, but nothing to write home about.

He needed to get an impact player in return AND a first, and he only got the first and pieces.
He "needed" an impact player, but the only impact player possibly included in this sort of deal was going to be Nash. No one was offering a Kreider. Stepan and Girardi were non-starters. That's true with every team in the league interested in him. Howson's options (maybe it's his fault the options were limited to this but still, at this point they were his only options) were to trade Nash for pieces like Erixon (who's being grossly underrated here) or keep Nash. Dubinsky and Anisimov aren't fantastic huge returns, but they are NHL players. He's put together a team that will lose more often than win, but it's certainly not an Edmonton caliber squad. It's a legitimate NHL team. It's a bad team, but it's nothing like the AHL squad we ran with for much of last season.

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Old
07-24-2012, 11:22 AM
  #282
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Originally Posted by squidz View Post
As a couple people have been coming around to, this trade may look bad from a "what did NYR give up" perspective, but look at it from a "what did Columbus receive" angle for a moment.

This team is in desperate need of a rebuild. However, let's look at them closer. Assume the team finishes last in the league this year. Pending the lottery, they get MacKinnon, Jones, Monahan, Shinkaruk, one of that type of guy. They have Johansen already, Calvert has some promise, Jenner is doing fairly well, so they have a decent stable of up and comers. Only one of them (plus their 2013 draft pick, who should be elite) are real high end top line guys, but it's not barren. Anisimov is only 24, and should be a 20 goal scorer minimum (put up 37 in the AHL, his NHL high is 18). Dubinsky is a 26 year old two-time 20 goal scorer. Their forward corps (after adding a top 5 pick in 2013) will be significantly better than Nashville's has ever been.

The blue line is where Columbus has been building though. As big of a joke as that Wiz contract was, he is a legitimate top 4 defenseman. Tyutin is a solid top 4 type guy as well. Jack Johnson looks like the real deal. Maybe he's not a #1 but he should fare well on a top pairing. All three of those guys are signed for 5-6 years. Now add Tim Erixon (who as much as people freak out about, is still a pretty good defensive prospect and would be at the very worst third in our pool) and David Savard to that pool (I don't know anything about John Moore, so maybe add him too?) and that's a pretty formidable blue line going forward.

So the real question is, can either Bob the Goalie or York handle the net for this team in the long run? This team is going to be terrible this year, and should be a lottery pick. But this team has a potential future in front of it if they can get rid of Howson and install someone with half a clue.
This is what everyone needs to look at.

Columbus already has a good second line center in Johanson. He could potentially be a top line guy, but that's doubtful at this point, IMO. They have Calvert(LW) and Atkinson(RW) who look to project to be high to mid-level 2nd line wingers. Dubinsky and Anisimov are mid/low level second line guys. Boone Jenner and Lukas Sedlak could both be high end third centers akin to Sutter in Pittsburgh, Sedlak could possibly be a Jordan Staal type of player.

If they take a guy like Mackinnon who could be a potential franchise top center, great. Push Johanson to the 2nd line, Sedlak to the 3rd. Or, they could possibly take a guy like Barkov, who is currently a Center(as far as I know?) and move him over to the wing to play with Johanson.

Barkov - Johanson - _____
Anisimov - Sedlak - Atkinson
Calvert - Jenner - Dubinsky

Would be a pretty good top-9. There would not be any true single scoring threat, but by committee they would succeed, IMO.

Columbus got a good enough return. They are building toward the future, and although it could be going better for them, they'll eventually get there I think.

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Old
07-24-2012, 11:42 AM
  #283
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I completely forgot about Murray possibly playing in Columbus next year. I'm excited to see how he looks.

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Old
07-24-2012, 12:28 PM
  #284
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Dubinsky will go back to center according to Howson.

2nd line, probably.

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07-24-2012, 12:42 PM
  #285
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I think Johanson can be a top line center some day, the kid will be a stud if he gets some good line mates. Murray should be rock solid on D for a very long time and I think John Moore will turn into a good player. He's an outstanding skater but just needs to work on the defensive aspect of his game.

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Old
07-24-2012, 02:17 PM
  #286
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Predators match...it's official...Weber stays in Nashville

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07-24-2012, 02:24 PM
  #287
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Predators match...it's official...Weber stays in Nashville
Dang, I wasn't really sure which way it would go. Good for Nashville.

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07-24-2012, 02:29 PM
  #288
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Dang, I wasn't really sure which way it would go. Good for Nashville.
Yeah, I was going back and forth....wasn't sure if they had the $$ to match...I'm glad they did, though.

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07-24-2012, 03:10 PM
  #289
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Predators match...it's official...Weber stays in Nashville
Well, that was fun while it lasted.

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07-24-2012, 04:22 PM
  #290
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Fun for Weber...

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Old
07-24-2012, 04:48 PM
  #291
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Happy for Nashville. No fan base deserves to lose that much talent in a single offseason.

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Old
07-24-2012, 04:48 PM
  #292
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The only surprise is that it took them that long to match the offer.

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Old
07-24-2012, 05:46 PM
  #293
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The only surprise is that it took them that long to match the offer.
If you think about it, what incentive was there for them to immediately announce they were matching? Besides, I don't think that made a decision until the meeting last night, and I'm pretty sure they had to swallow REAL hard before committing that kind of upfront cash to one player.

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07-24-2012, 06:00 PM
  #294
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This is what I get for going on vacation. Missing the Nash deal and Weber's offer sheet stuff.

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Old
07-24-2012, 07:17 PM
  #295
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The only surprise is that it took them that long to match the offer.
Not at all...every offer sheet that has ever been matched, they have always taken their time in doing so. There is no incentive in rushing to match.

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07-24-2012, 07:23 PM
  #296
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Not at all...every offer sheet that has ever been matched, they have always taken their time in doing so. There is no incentive in rushing to match.
I recall Darcy Regier very quickly (and angrily) announcing that he would match the offer sheet that Vanek signed with Edmonton...although I think he waited the entire 7 days to file the paperwork just to stick it to Kevin Lowe.

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07-24-2012, 07:25 PM
  #297
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I recall Darcy Regier very quickly announcing that he would match the offer sheet that Vanek signed with Edmonton...although I think he waited the entire 7 days to file the paperwork just to stick it to Kevin Lowe.
Verbally and officially aren't the same. Otherwise you have to count Poile's statement that he'd match any offer made to Weber...which he said only a day or two prior.

For the record...I thought the moment I read that Philly made the offer, there was no way Nashville wouldn't match.

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07-24-2012, 07:25 PM
  #298
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Not at all...every offer sheet that has ever been matched, they have always taken their time in doing so. There is no incentive in rushing to match.
Only one I can think of that was matched in two seconds was David Backes' Vancouver deal.

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07-24-2012, 07:26 PM
  #299
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Not at all...every offer sheet that has ever been matched, they have always taken their time in doing so. There is no incentive in rushing to match.
This is especially true in an active market (but still true in the situation like today) as the offer sheet submitting team is hamstrung in free agency until it's either matched or allowed while the team that was the target generally knows what they will do and can continue operating normally.

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07-24-2012, 07:28 PM
  #300
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Philly fans sure had themselves convinced that their GM had outsmarted Nashville. Looks like he outsmarted himself.

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