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Spacek/Gill confirm Martin is garbage coach, Gauthier senile old man, Cunney a puppet

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Old
06-05-2012, 01:41 AM
  #526
THE HOFF
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
A coach not having a plan, a system and telling his veterans to do what they want is not, in my opinion, worth being qualified as average. Don't take my word for it, ask Spacek and Gill...
You were always good to put words in people's mouth. show me where gill and spacek said Martin didn't have a plan, a system and that he let the veterans do ''what they wanted''. have you read what plekanec had to say ? (don't waste time on it, its probably too hard to twist anyways)

many coaches let the veterans run the room, in any sports. Gill said martin had a system that prevented some players to ''play their game'' naming gomez as one example -between you and me, not sure I'd want my strategy to revolve around him anyways - . He said we didn't have the players to play that system, which is quite different.

you have the right to analyse and rip into a coach based on your personnal feelings, but stop trying to turn your twisted rhetoric into soft arguments, its quite pathetix.


Last edited by THE HOFF: 06-08-2012 at 01:37 AM.
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Old
06-05-2012, 02:12 AM
  #527
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
All right, first before I present the data, a bit of an explanation. These stats reflect the percentage of 5-on-5 goals, shots, and missed shots for versus against when the score is close (defined as tied, or within one goal in the first or second period). This is a narrow category, but it's highly correlated to scoring chances and avoids score effects due to teams changing the way they play when up or down big, or when they're up or down late.

What we have here is a good measure of the exchange of scoring chances,

These are, as always, from the invaluable behindthenet.ca site: http://behindthenet.ca/fenwick_2011....6&section=tied -- which helpfully provides more data (such as score-tied only data, home and road splits, and the like) if there's interest. This data is obtained straight from NHL official scoresheets.

Some stats then:
Therrien:
PIT 2007-2008: 46.51% (4th worst in the league)
On the subject of Therrien vs. Bylsma this is also very good reading, presenting splits between the two in 08-09: http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/20...ichel-therrien
interesting, thanks for posting.

one question:

- what impact do you think things like roster quality and coaching philosophy (more attacking vs more defensive) have on this set of statistics?

using the Pens as an example, their winger group was very weak in 07-08 (Sykora, Malone, Talbot, Armstrong, Christensen, Kennedy), and Crosby missed 30 games to injury.

If I'm coaching that team, and I have a Malkin, Staal and a Gonchar, I'm looking to do as much damage as possible on PP, but otherwise "wether the storm" at 5 on 5.

While these stats tell us what happened, they don't explain why they happened. Comparing a team one season to the next, even with the same coach, is equally dubious since the better the coach the more likely he is to tailor his approach to the assets at his disposal... which may mean more/fewer shots on goal 5on5, and the quality of his assets will impact the amount of goals scored 5on5.

The closest comparable would be at comparing two coaches of the same team in one season, but even then the emotional impact of a coaching change on the player dynamics will have an impact (potentially huge) on the teams statistical output.

(and just to be clear, I'm not of a firm opinion + or - on therrien... he wouldn't have been my choice but until I see how he works with our group I'm in favour of BofDoubt. You may prove to be absolutely right about him, though a poor 5on5 output in a season with the mediocre top9 wingers he had at his disposal wouldn't seem to me to be particularly compelling evidence.


oh, and i thought it interesting that the 2012 flyers maintained an almost identical Fenpct as the 2011 team, with the same coach, despite being "much worse", as you put it...

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06-05-2012, 02:20 AM
  #528
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Well if we're working with the goalie analogy, how much sense does it make to dump an average guy like say Craig Anderson when the guys you can get to immediately replace him are either probably not good (say Khabibulin) or completely unproven (lets say Jonathan Bernier). Losing the average guy isn't going to get you a Lunqvist or Rinne. An organization committed to excellence/competitiveness would stay with average until such a time as they can replace with better.

Its a real shame Boucher got poached so quickly because he could be that kind of replacement. On the other hand Montreal may be shooting themselves in the foot with the language policy because that largely means they are locked out of raiding other teams up and coming coaches in response to losing Boucher and Muller.
I would personally swap an "average" Anderson for a "potential future star" Bernier... assuming I had to choose btw the two (or more to the point, I'd have kept Boucher over Martin if that was what was necessary).

Replacing Martin with a lame-duck coach was an idiot move... but that's as much b/c of how Gauthier did it as it is a reflection of RC as a coaching option. If you're going to install a rookie head coach in the middle of a season heading in the wrong direction, better give him a vote of confidence, not cut his legs from under him from day one.

otherwise, keep the guy you have, or if you need to move him and want an interim coach, hire another average coach with experience who willing to take an interim gig with an opportunity to make it long term if he succeeds.

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06-05-2012, 07:58 AM
  #529
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
- what impact do you think things like roster quality and coaching philosophy (more attacking vs more defensive) have on this set of statistics?
Roster quality, that's the biggest factor, of course. Attack versus defense, very little -- a defensive coach will lead to fewer events either way, an offensive coach more, but the goal is still to outchance the opposition. The ratios for a good team should be the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
using the Pens as an example, their winger group was very weak in 07-08 (Sykora, Malone, Talbot, Armstrong, Christensen, Kennedy), and Crosby missed 30 games to injury.
It was still a very strong roster. It certainly was not weaker than the Habs of that year. It had the Art Ross runner-up, and Sykora and Malone were hardly "very weak" at that time.

It's pretty telling that when Therrien was fired the next year, the Pens went from 46% to 52% in a matter of weeks. Here's an article on the coaching change: http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/20...ichel-therrien


Last edited by MathMan: 06-05-2012 at 08:15 AM.
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06-05-2012, 12:29 PM
  #530
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Roster quality, that's the biggest factor, of course. Attack versus defense, very little -- a defensive coach will lead to fewer events either way, an offensive coach more, but the goal is still to outchance the opposition. The ratios for a good team should be the same.
not so sure about that last part.

some defensive systems allow for greater "chances", but only lower quality ones, while relying on transition/special teams to generate their offensive "chances".

There is a massive difference in quality of shots, and depending on what kind of roster a coach is working with, they could very feasibly concede greater "quantity" to the opponent while generating fewer but greater "quality" chances on their part.

this set of stats takes no consideration of quality of "chances", which on top of ignoring roster changes/differences, to me is enough to suggest that it would be a mistake to put too much weight on what they tell us about the effectiveness of a given coach.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
It was still a very strong roster. It certainly was not weaker than the Habs of that year. It had the Art Ross runner-up, and Sykora and Malone were hardly "very weak" at that time.
personally, I'd argue that the habs had a much better group of wingers than the pens did (kovalev/streit/higgins/ryder/kost/lats), Sykora had a career year that season and I'd bet that anyone of the habs wingers would have been equally if not more productive spending the year on Malkin's wing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
It's pretty telling that when Therrien was fired the next year, the Pens went from 46% to 52% in a matter of weeks. Here's an article on the coaching change: http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/20...ichel-therrien
can't ignore the roster additions the team made down the stretch... (not saying that this excuses Therrien's shortcomings, just that we can't look at the stats without keeping the full context in mind).

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07-24-2012, 10:00 AM
  #531
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I didn't want to make another thread, so I dug this one out.

Many of the posters were bashing PG for the way he handled things, more of on his own type way, no real communication and no real leadership.

And as fan that kinds sucks, but how much does that have an affect on how the the team is doing.

Two key things of the article I wanted to point out.

First Gill talked about how management was too business like, and he compared it to Nashville whose management was open minded and asked for players feedback.

With how things played out in Nashville is that really the best way to manage a team?

Poile said he spoke to Gill about AK before trading for him, and Weber about bringing back Radulov. Both moves didn't go as hoped.

Another part was the way management traded guys, being objective, it seemed like managment told players they are trading them but can't officially tell them where until its an official trade by the league, this way players won't find out on their own. Ex most recent example some of the Rangers players from the Nash trade, found out through the net about them getting traded, and the Rangers called them after the trade call with the league went thru.

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07-24-2012, 10:55 AM
  #532
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Originally Posted by habs03 View Post

With how things played out in Nashville is that really the best way to manage a team?

Poile said he spoke to Gill about AK before trading for him, and Weber about bringing back Radulov. Both moves didn't go as hoped.
.

I think that example is a bit out of context.

AK did as advertised until that incident with Radulov. As for Radulov, it had been years since he left town, Weber was buds with him years back and figured he could get AR on side as he probably matured. Well, he did not. Sometimes you make mistakes. I do not think Nashville wagered to high on either player.

Nashville took a shot at going further in the playoffs because they knew they would probably lose Suter and maybe Weber a year later (turns out possibly earlier). It was the right thing to do.


The truth is pro athletes are human beings who appreciate being respected. If you run your organization as if they were only assets and not humans, well...just remember the people you step on to make it to the top are the same ones you pass by on the way down, and it is inevitable that you will make it down the hill sometime in career.

People have a choice what kind of person they will be and way of doing business they will use. You have to answer the bell for that.

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07-24-2012, 11:14 AM
  #533
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The title of this thread never fails to put a smile on my face. Thanks for bumping it up!

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07-24-2012, 11:24 AM
  #534
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habs03 View Post
With how things played out in Nashville is that really the best way to manage a team?

Poile said he spoke to Gill about AK before trading for him, and Weber about bringing back Radulov. Both moves didn't go as hoped.

Another part was the way management traded guys, being objective, it seemed like managment told players they are trading them but can't officially tell them where until its an official trade by the league, this way players won't find out on their own. Ex most recent example some of the Rangers players from the Nash trade, found out through the net about them getting traded, and the Rangers called them after the trade call with the league went thru.
I found Nashville response to AK and Radulov missing curfew utterly ridiculous. They were an hour late due to slow service at a restaurant. No alcohol was served as the establishment did not even offer it. One game was pushing it to begin with, never mind two while in the midst of a playoff series. Ironically, Nashville went from a player's atmosphere to parental authority in all of one night.

Nevertheless, the qualms of Nashville are not upon their relaxed management but Poile's sensitive approach. He did not conduct business as precisely that and instead went with a gentlemanly handshake and "good vibes" for want of a better term. You can play the role of a player's GM, yet still handle the organizational affairs in a business, even ruthless, manner. Poile chose not to do so and it has since exploded in his face. Frankly, if Nashville cannot match be ready to see his abrupt departure as GM in the not too distant future.

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07-24-2012, 11:50 AM
  #535
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Originally Posted by DenverHabsFan View Post
The title of this thread never fails to put a smile on my face. Thanks for bumping it up!
You should get into the National Enquirer, or The Sun. They have titles like this one every day.

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07-24-2012, 06:31 PM
  #536
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This is like the Headline from a paper in Lance & Compte.

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07-24-2012, 06:32 PM
  #537
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Originally Posted by habs03 View Post
I didn't want to make another thread, so I dug this one out.

Many of the posters were bashing PG for the way he handled things, more of on his own type way, no real communication and no real leadership.

And as fan that kinds sucks, but how much does that have an affect on how the the team is doing.

Two key things of the article I wanted to point out.

First Gill talked about how management was too business like, and he compared it to Nashville whose management was open minded and asked for players feedback.

With how things played out in Nashville is that really the best way to manage a team?

Poile said he spoke to Gill about AK before trading for him, and Weber about bringing back Radulov. Both moves didn't go as hoped.

Another part was the way management traded guys, being objective, it seemed like managment told players they are trading them but can't officially tell them where until its an official trade by the league, this way players won't find out on their own. Ex most recent example some of the Rangers players from the Nash trade, found out through the net about them getting traded, and the Rangers called them after the trade call with the league went thru.
It depends on what kind of feedback. Makes perfect sense for Gill to be asked about AK because he could tell them alot about him and they could use that to help decide if hed be a good fit. Dont know why they asked Weber about Radulov because Weber wouldnt have known anything more about him than management. Management should keep an ear open to players , like when Habs vets went to management and said we needed to get bigger and tougher, the players knew what we were missing on the ice. Management has to manage though and you shouldnt overdue it with players opinions because that could lead to some nonsense and discord if players are always shooting their mouths off about we should do this or that etc.

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07-24-2012, 07:21 PM
  #538
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Apparently now Gauthier ran the show for Gainey, he was the GM the whole time. He also ran the team for Martin and filled the role as coach. Then he neutered the amazing Cunneyworth and told him what to do.

Just get it out of your system.

Gauthier = All that went wrong
Someone else = All that went right

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07-24-2012, 07:44 PM
  #539
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Apparently now Gauthier ran the show for Gainey, he was the GM the whole time. He also ran the team for Martin and filled the role as coach. Then he neutered the amazing Cunneyworth and told him what to do.

Just get it out of your system.

Gauthier = All that went wrong
Someone else = All that went right
What went right?

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07-24-2012, 07:59 PM
  #540
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
What went right?
Cole, Emelin, Price, Eller, Galchenyuk, Collberg, Thrower, Bozon, Pacioretty, Desharnais.

The line up to apologize to Gauthier will start in the coming years.

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07-24-2012, 08:16 PM
  #541
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The head coach and GM need to be on the same page. GM's like to put in their guy, you see coaches follow around GM's to cities (Sutter/Lombardi in LA, Hitchcock/Armstrong in STL for example).

I think that has been a problem with the Habs for a long time. I got the impression there was too much micro managing from the front office (i.e. the Huet/Theodore situation when Claude Julien was coach).

Hopefully the new management will do their job and let the coaches do theirs.

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07-24-2012, 08:28 PM
  #542
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Galchenyuk, Collberg, Thrower, Bozon.

The line up to apologize to Gauthier will start in the coming years.
Are you serious?

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07-24-2012, 08:29 PM
  #543
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Are you serious?
Do I have to spell it out for you?

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07-24-2012, 08:30 PM
  #544
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Do I have to spell it out for you?
Gauthier's marvelous reign as GM over the last season allowed the Habs to finish at the bottom of the East - 27th in the NHL - thus allowing Trevor Timmins and Marc Bergevin to make good selections at the draft?

Or maybe spell it out for me.

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07-24-2012, 08:30 PM
  #545
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Cole, Emelin, Price, Eller, Galchenyuk, Collberg, Thrower, Bozon, Pacioretty, Desharnais.

The line up to apologize to Gauthier will start in the coming years.
What the hell does Gauthier have to do with them?

Gomez, Kaberle and Bourque

The line up to kick Gauthier in the &^$% starts there,

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07-24-2012, 08:36 PM
  #546
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Originally Posted by Coldplay View Post
Gauthier's marvelous reign as GM over the last season allowed the Habs to finish at the bottom of the East - 27th in the NHL - thus allowing Trevor Timmins and Marc Bergevin to make good selections at the draft?

Or maybe spell it out for me.
Gauthiers calculated moves to acquire talent and not sacrifice picks/prospects allowed the habs to hold exceptional positions at the draft. Without these positions odds are high we would have not gotten one of the afforementioned players.

If you think Gauthier was actually trying to make the playoffs after that start you should clue in.

Many other GMs would have dumped picks for vets in some sad half assed attempt to get in but we didn't. Gauthier played the long game probably knowing the backlash he would enjoy from the "fanbase" (and I use this term loosely)

Add the two 2nd round picks for next year to that list and Patrick Holland, I forgot them.

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07-24-2012, 08:41 PM
  #547
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Originally Posted by Coldplay View Post
Gauthier's marvelous reign as GM over the last season allowed the Habs to finish at the bottom of the East - 27th in the NHL - thus allowing Trevor Timmins and Marc Bergevin to make good selections at the draft?

Or maybe spell it out for me.
Giive Gauthier credit where credit is due. When the season was done he maximized the long-term return.

Gainey spent years not trading impending UFAs in failed seasons. It was his greatest failing.

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07-24-2012, 08:50 PM
  #548
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Gauthiers calculated moves to acquire talent and not sacrifice picks/prospects allowed the habs to hold exceptional positions at the draft. Without these positions odds are high we would have not gotten one of the afforementioned players.

If you think Gauthier was actually trying to make the playoffs after that start you should clue in.

Many other GMs would have dumped picks for vets in some sad half assed attempt to get in but we didn't. Gauthier played the long game probably knowing the backlash he would enjoy from the "fanbase" (and I use this term loosely)

Add the two 2nd round picks for next year to that list and Patrick Holland, I forgot them.
Gauthier had to go but he did alright, slightly above average and not terrible like a lot of posters here carry on about.

You take a lot of heat for your thoughts on this subject but it falls mostly on deaf ears.

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07-24-2012, 09:53 PM
  #549
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I found Nashville response to AK and Radulov missing curfew utterly ridiculous. They were an hour late due to slow service at a restaurant. No alcohol was served as the establishment did not even offer it. One game was pushing it to begin with, never mind two while in the midst of a playoff series. Ironically, Nashville went from a player's atmosphere to parental authority in all of one night.

Nevertheless, the qualms of Nashville are not upon their relaxed management but Poile's sensitive approach. He did not conduct business as precisely that and instead went with a gentlemanly handshake and "good vibes" for want of a better term. You can play the role of a player's GM, yet still handle the organizational affairs in a business, even ruthless, manner. Poile chose not to do so and it has since exploded in his face. Frankly, if Nashville cannot match be ready to see his abrupt departure as GM in the not too distant future.
An hour late? I heard that they were making their way back from an after hours club at 5am.
Anyways, The fact that both these free agents are without work speaks volumes about how serious their breaking of curfew is viewed around the NHL.

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07-24-2012, 09:54 PM
  #550
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Originally Posted by habs03 View Post
I didn't want to make another thread, so I dug this one out.

Many of the posters were bashing PG for the way he handled things, more of on his own type way, no real communication and no real leadership.

And as fan that kinds sucks, but how much does that have an affect on how the the team is doing.

Two key things of the article I wanted to point out.

First Gill talked about how management was too business like, and he compared it to Nashville whose management was open minded and asked for players feedback.

With how things played out in Nashville is that really the best way to manage a team?

Poile said he spoke to Gill about AK before trading for him, and Weber about bringing back Radulov. Both moves didn't go as hoped.

Another part was the way management traded guys, being objective, it seemed like managment told players they are trading them but can't officially tell them where until its an official trade by the league, this way players won't find out on their own. Ex most recent example some of the Rangers players from the Nash trade, found out through the net about them getting traded, and the Rangers called them after the trade call with the league went thru.
Seriously?

Let it go. Gauthier is gone. Good riddance. On to Chicago to weave his magic into whole cloth.

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