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07-23-2012, 04:04 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Black1963 View Post
His lack of ice time is irrelevant. The fact that the Kings are waiving a dman will get the attention of their GMs.

Also keep in mind that 44DD is a pretty good sized player at 6'2 220. If 44DD is smart, he would add more muscle in the off season.
Teams do not pay more attention to the team that is waiving a player. Teams have their scouting staffs watching the AHL and will ask them for input on a particular player, not sit there waiting to claim a player simply because he came from the Stanley Cup champions.

No one from Boston got claimed last year, no one from Chicago the year before that. Team name has virtually no impact, nor should it.

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07-23-2012, 04:11 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
Teams do not pay more attention to the team that is waiving a player. Teams have their scouting staffs watching the AHL and will ask them for input on a particular player, not sit there waiting to claim a player simply because he came from the Stanley Cup champions.

No one from Boston got claimed last year, no one from Chicago the year before that. Team name has virtually no impact, nor should it.
I didn't say it was because of the stanley cup, but rather based on our reputation as a very good defensive team.

In any case, we'll just agree to disagree here.

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07-24-2012, 08:52 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Black1963 View Post
I didn't say it was because of the stanley cup, but rather based on our reputation as a very good defensive team.

In any case, we'll just agree to disagree here.
I guess we can, I just don't understand why someone would claim another player because we waived him. There are plenty of good defensive teams, but that only applies to the players playing on the team, not the guys who can't crack the line up.

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07-24-2012, 04:18 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
And I was thinking of you when a posted "hardly anyone". You always are a cut above the rest TG!
Nah, we all have our strengths around here yourself included. Mine is just more about which of our kids have the best shot/ability to translate their games to the NHL level.

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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Remember who Martinez beat out to win a regular spot on the roster? A position on the blueline opened up after the Kings dealt Kyle Quincey to Colorado. Martinez was in competition against Thomas Hickey, Jake Muzzin, Davis Drewiske and Peter Harrold to secure a spot on the blueline.

Muzzin actually won out the battle in camp that year and started the season on the roster and appeared in 11 games with the Kings through mid-November before he was sent down. Drewiske was also struggling to hold down a spot in the regular rotation, and by late November, Martinez had secured himself a permanent roster spot. His play dictated that decision and he outplayed Hickey and Muzzin to earn that spot.

Which goes back to what I was saying... these kids aren't going to be given spots on the blueline any time soon and I don't see how they'll be on the opening night roster unless one of them offseats Drewiske as the 7th defenseman on the roster.
My debate with you is only centered around your position regarding our prospects not being ready to play in the NHL and your low opinion of Muzzin's talent. The rest of what you are saying makes as much sense as anything else.

Muzzin, Hickey, DD44 are all NHL ready D men. Each could play as regular's on several NHL rosters around the league and would not only be desirable players if offered but would establish themselves as top 4 (Muzz 4/5 Hickey 4/5 and DD44 5/6 imo) valued players in short time imho.

That is my position. Rather or not they should unseat any of our established players hasn't really been part of what I have been saying.

That said, I think that Muzzin could replace Greene on the ice if needed and by the end of the season would do a good enough job as our 3rd pairing stay at home D type with better O upside. He wouldn't be as gritty as Greene but Muzz is a much better skater and has better hands then Greene so there would be trade offs as the two approach the game differently.

Do I want this to happen? Not really but if it had to for some reason (injury, trade etc) I think we would be fine.

Do I think Muzzin could unseat Greene or any of our established vets just yet? It doesn't work that way. Could his game improve enough to where DL would have greater leverage to make a deal knowing that Muzz is ready to step in like the VV/JJ situation?

Absolutely but I don't think it will happen nor do I think it necessarily should. Simply because a player proves themselves NHL ready doesn't mandate that a move be made to make room for them on an NHL roster. Not on a good team that is having solid success anyways.

That is the thing to me, A Mart making the team was inevitable to me in the same way that Muzzin, Hickey, Forbort, Gravel and Deslauriers making the NHL someday is inevitable. That is what I am saying. Rather or not it will be with the Kings is debatable but the fact that each of these players have NHL caliber skills and should play at the NHL level (with Muzzin and Hickey both being ready today) someday soon is just a matter of time imho.

If there was any interest I would do my rank and rate our prospects thing like I have in the past and post it on the boards for debate.

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07-24-2012, 06:37 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
That's essentially what I'm saying: the Kings will make room if they find a better option. They're not going to clear up roster space just to fit their prospects on the roster unless they prove to be better than what they already have.
Yup. It makes for a boring HF but a solid opportunity to win again.

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07-24-2012, 10:37 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
My debate with you is only centered around your position regarding our prospects not being ready to play in the NHL and your low opinion of Muzzin's talent. The rest of what you are saying makes as much sense as anything else.
I'm just not as sold and confident in him being ready to play regularly in the NHL. Sure it could happen someday like we saw with what happened in Detroit when they had no room for Quincey, waived him, got claimed by the Kings and broke out as a stud, middle pairing defenseman. His stock went up and the Kings used him as an asset and acquired a proven top six forward at that time in Ryan Smyth. I just think that it could go either way with him.

He could be a Drewiske or the other name I brought up, Aaron Rome and be a #6-7 dman on the depth chart, or he could be on the other end of the spectrum and struggle to stick on a roster. I remember thinking Joe Piskula might have a shot some day since he had a lot of size, but he's been a mainstay in the AHL thus far. I don't know why you think I have a low opinion of Muzzin, I'm just skeptical when people pencil in prospects as surefire NHLers. I usually reserve those claims for the first-second round guys who can do something that makes them standout above all the other best players in their age groups.

Quote:
Muzzin, Hickey, DD44 are all NHL ready D men. Each could play as regular's on several NHL rosters around the league and would not only be desirable players if offered but would establish themselves as top 4 (Muzz 4/5 Hickey 4/5 and DD44 5/6 imo) valued players in short time imho.

That is my position. Rather or not they should unseat any of our established players hasn't really been part of what I have been saying.
If that were the case and there are other league execs out there who believe that to be true, I would think that Lombardi would have received some offers, or at the very least do them a favor and move them in order for them to pursue other opportunities. With all three players being eligible for waivers, two out of the three that you listed will have to pass through waivers.

I don't foresee the Kings having all three players on the roster next season. There may be an opportunity for them to get claimed, but I think it's also likely that teams pass on them as they'd have the same dilemma of having to sneak them by waivers. That is unless there is a team out there that plans on keeping Muzzin, Hickey or Drewiske on their pro roster.

Quote:
That said, I think that Muzzin could replace Greene on the ice if needed and by the end of the season would do a good enough job as our 3rd pairing stay at home D type with better O upside. He wouldn't be as gritty as Greene but Muzz is a much better skater and has better hands then Greene so there would be trade offs as the two approach the game differently.

Do I want this to happen? Not really but if it had to for some reason (injury, trade etc) I think we would be fine.

Do I think Muzzin could unseat Greene or any of our established vets just yet? It doesn't work that way. Could his game improve enough to where DL would have greater leverage to make a deal knowing that Muzz is ready to step in like the VV/JJ situation?

Absolutely but I don't think it will happen nor do I think it necessarily should. Simply because a player proves themselves NHL ready doesn't mandate that a move be made to make room for them on an NHL roster. Not on a good team that is having solid success anyways.
I don't think Muzzin can replace Greene, at all. Greene is the most physical defenseman on the Kings (and arguably on the roster). He's big, he's mean, he clears the crease, and he's a leader. Muzzin certainly does have the potential to bring more to the table in terms of puck play, but Matt Greene is one of the go-to-guys on the team when the Kings are protecting a lead in the dying moments of a game. Muzzin doesn't have that same presence on the blueline and doesn't play with the same intensity or voracity as Greene does.

I think he could fill in with spot duty here and there for the time being, like you suggested, if there is an injury. Someone from the current top six would really have to fall off the map if any of the aforementioned trio crack the Kings' rotation next season.

Quote:
That is the thing to me, A Mart making the team was inevitable to me in the same way that Muzzin, Hickey, Forbort, Gravel and Deslauriers making the NHL someday is inevitable. That is what I am saying. Rather or not it will be with the Kings is debatable but the fact that each of these players have NHL caliber skills and should play at the NHL level (with Muzzin and Hickey both being ready today) someday soon is just a matter of time imho.
Based on his play from the playoffs and over the course of the season, I think Martinez can and should be considered as a good candidate to move up the rankings on the blueline. I'd like to see him get more minutes next season, especially on the 2nd PP unit.

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If there was any interest I would do my rank and rate our prospects thing like I have in the past and post it on the boards for debate.
That would be great. In particular, I would be interested to see how you rank the defensive prospects now that Voynov has graduated and is no longer considered a prospect. I agree with what you said above concerning Gravel, I think his stock went up with his play at the WJC. I've been pleasantly surprised with his development.

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07-25-2012, 12:25 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
I guess we can, I just don't understand why someone would claim another player because we waived him. There are plenty of good defensive teams, but that only applies to the players playing on the team, not the guys who can't crack the line up.
The guy can't crack the lineup because our dmen are so good and deep.

Guys like Greene and Amart could be a top 4 dmen, but on the kings, they play the bottom pairing.

You're usually, sensible. Kind of surprised you're not getting it.

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07-25-2012, 10:12 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Black1963 View Post
The guy can't crack the lineup because our dmen are so good and deep.

Guys like Greene and Amart could be a top 4 dmen, but on the kings, they play the bottom pairing.

You're usually, sensible. Kind of surprised you're not getting it.
Perhaps were arguing from the same point, just a different angle. Either way, it'll be the player that gets claimed, not because of what team he's playing for.

Either that or I'm being unsensible. Wife says that as well, so likely some truth to it.

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07-25-2012, 02:10 PM
  #109
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Is Hickey really waiver eligible? That's bad for the Kings...Drewiske is the #7 so if they carry two extra D man that's one less extra forward to carry.

I don't think anyone is cracking this group until Scuderi's contract is up and I think Muzzin takes his spot. Scuderi and Mitchell expire first and no one in Manchester plays like either of them. But, if it's between Muzzin, Hickey, Deslauries...Muzzin is the closest.

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07-25-2012, 02:15 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
I'm just not as sold and confident in him being ready to play regularly in the NHL. Sure it could happen someday like we saw with what happened in Detroit when they had no room for Quincey, waived him, got claimed by the Kings and broke out as a stud, middle pairing defenseman. His stock went up and the Kings used him as an asset and acquired a proven top six forward at that time in Ryan Smyth. I just think that it could go either way with him.

He could be a Drewiske or the other name I brought up, Aaron Rome and be a #6-7 dman on the depth chart, or he could be on the other end of the spectrum and struggle to stick on a roster. I remember thinking Joe Piskula might have a shot some day since he had a lot of size, but he's been a mainstay in the AHL thus far. I don't know why you think I have a low opinion of Muzzin, I'm just skeptical when people pencil in prospects as surefire NHLers. I usually reserve those claims for the first-second round guys who can do something that makes them standout above all the other best players in their age groups.

If you read through my posting(s) I am very careful for the most part to use phrases like "NHL Player" or "NHL Caliber". The reason for this is that I typically am only willing to debate each prospects ability to take their game to the NHL level. I have gone more in depth with regards to these players for the sake of this debate/discussion so I will go on but, the fact that these are NHL ready kids who have the skills and ability to play in the NHL I am not really willing to debate only for the reason that I am allowed to spend a significant amount of time following our prospects and a successful track record of determining who will matriculate and who will remain in the AHL (or other minor league's).

To your point above, we are at the same stage that Detroit and other successful teams reach where our prospects are concerned. The next two seasons will prove me out on this.

As for comparing Rome Rullier Piskula etc etc etc to any of the kids we have today isn't actually a fair comparison. Muzzing Hickey and co are part of our org today and have made it through our system the way that DL and co (including Futa) have determined the best possibe way to bring a prospect along.

That doesn't ensure that all of our prospects will make the NHL or have success there if they do but it does mean that there is an org. difference between the players you have mentioned and what is happening with our kids today and the philosophy used to obtain and develop them.


If that were the case and there are other league execs out there who believe that to be true, I would think that Lombardi would have received some offers, or at the very least do them a favor and move them in order for them to pursue other opportunities. With all three players being eligible for waivers, two out of the three that you listed will have to pass through waivers.

I don't foresee the Kings having all three players on the roster next season. There may be an opportunity for them to get claimed, but I think it's also likely that teams pass on them as they'd have the same dilemma of having to sneak them by waivers. That is unless there is a team out there that plans on keeping Muzzin, Hickey or Drewiske on their pro roster.

Who's is to say that we (DL) haven't received several offers for our kids? In fact, there are always rumors about one prospect or another being part of one deal or another. That doesn't mean that it is happening but it surely doesn't mean that it isn't.

I agree with you on your opinion regarding rather or not any or all 3 of these kids make the NHL this next season but again, that hasn't been my position from the word go on this. My position is that these kids are NHL ready and that means ready to start taking their games to the NHL level.

In the case of Muzzin he is NHL ready today to step in and be a bottom pairing regular and then work his way up from there in the same manner that A Mart was a couple of seasons ago. The same goes with Hickey. It doesn't mean that they are capable today from shift #1 to step in and replace anyone, only that they are ready to start making the transition today. I expect ups and downs as it goes on but that they are ready I believe is true.

I don't think Muzzin can replace Greene, at all. Greene is the most physical defenseman on the Kings (and arguably on the roster). He's big, he's mean, he clears the crease, and he's a leader. Muzzin certainly does have the potential to bring more to the table in terms of puck play, but Matt Greene is one of the go-to-guys on the team when the Kings are protecting a lead in the dying moments of a game. Muzzin doesn't have that same presence on the blueline and doesn't play with the same intensity or voracity as Greene does.

If you re-read my post you will see that I specifically used the phrase "on the ice" when discussing Muzzin's ability to replace Greene if he had to do so. As far as leadership and or locker room presence goes Greene is almost irreplaceable in my opinion.

Muzzin is a better skater with a better set of hands and a similar decision making process when compared to Greene's. They are equally capable of breaking up plays, that sort of thing (though it will take time for Muzzin to bring his ability to do so up to the NHL level) but as far as the physical aspect goes Greene is a few years ahead of Muzzin in that department.

Muzzin can and does play a physical game but not at the same level as MG but MG doesn't skate or move the puck as well as Muzzin so they do both have their strengths and weaknesses.

The reason I brought up Muzzin and Greene though was in response to your position that if these kids were NHL ready then the Kings would make room for them, something I disagree with in that it isn't that simple. My comparison shows why it wouldn't be smart to move Greene and replace him with Muzzin at this point but it also proves that if we had to do so that we could due to the fact that Muzzin in my opinion is ready to step in and begin his NHL career.

I think he could fill in with spot duty here and there for the time being, like you suggested, if there is an injury. Someone from the current top six would really have to fall off the map if any of the aforementioned trio crack the Kings' rotation next season.

This is what I mean by starting his NHL career. I don't think it would be smart to have Muzz replace anyone on the roster full time from the start of the season. He is NHL ready and that means that it is up to our coaching staff as to how when and where they chose to do so. If a deal came up where a team wants to go after A Mart or Greene that we just couldn't pass up and it happened early in the year then I think that by the end of the season that Muzzin would prove an adequate replacement. Nothing more or less. I hope that doesn't happen because it would change the dynamic's of our D completely but as a player Muzzin would do fine.



Based on his play from the playoffs and over the course of the season, I think Martinez can and should be considered as a good candidate to move up the rankings on the blueline. I'd like to see him get more minutes next season, especially on the 2nd PP unit.

I agree but, he had to be brought along to make this point in his career. I am A-Mart's #1 backer here and have been in his corner since his Miami days and I believe that Muzzin though a different type of player is as ready to play in the NHL as A Mart was when he came up including the need to be brought along over the course of a season and given time to establish himself in the same manner that A Mart and VV were.


That would be great. In particular, I would be interested to see how you rank the defensive prospects now that Voynov has graduated and is no longer considered a prospect. I agree with what you said above concerning Gravel, I think his stock went up with his play at the WJC. I've been pleasantly surprised with his development.
Sorry, I am still learning how to use the multi quote thing correctly. The majority of my responses are in the body of your original post. I just figured out how to use the function correctly.

Thanks. Gravel is just such a smart D man who is like DD44 but just a bit better at everything he does at this point in his development. I really like watching the kid skate. He takes big long strides with ease, hits like a train and then regains his momentum more quickly then allot of NHL d-men.

That isn't to say that KG is merely a smooth skating checking machine, I see him as one of those players who just works really hard to be good enough to do whatever you ask him to whenever he is asked. If you need him to be your #1 PP option he isn't going to be the best in the league or close to it but nobody will work harder at trying to be the best then KG and that is a great thing to have in a your defencive player.

I will try and make some time later to do a ranking thing with a little write up on our D kids.

You and I aren't really that far apart on what we are saying. We are a little but if this conversation was in person I think we wouldn't be that far apart on our positions. Fun debate though.

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07-26-2012, 12:09 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
Sorry, I am still learning how to use the multi quote thing correctly. The majority of my responses are in the body of your original post. I just figured out how to use the function correctly.

Thanks. Gravel is just such a smart D man who is like DD44 but just a bit better at everything he does at this point in his development. I really like watching the kid skate. He takes big long strides with ease, hits like a train and then regains his momentum more quickly then allot of NHL d-men.

That isn't to say that KG is merely a smooth skating checking machine, I see him as one of those players who just works really hard to be good enough to do whatever you ask him to whenever he is asked. If you need him to be your #1 PP option he isn't going to be the best in the league or close to it but nobody will work harder at trying to be the best then KG and that is a great thing to have in a your defencive player.

I will try and make some time later to do a ranking thing with a little write up on our D kids.

You and I aren't really that far apart on what we are saying. We are a little but if this conversation was in person I think we wouldn't be that far apart on our positions. Fun debate though.
I think we are going to very happy with Gravel for a long time (assuming we keep him). Like 15 years happy. He's that steady type of defenseman that will never be flashy, but will be extremely dependable and will wear a letter (possible captain). Mark Hardy-type perhaps (not as much offensive upside as what mark had early in his career though). To me, he's arguably the most underrated of all Kings prospects, and defeinately the most underrated d-man.

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07-26-2012, 06:46 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
I think we are going to very happy with Gravel for a long time (assuming we keep him). Like 15 years happy. He's that steady type of defenseman that will never be flashy, but will be extremely dependable and will wear a letter (possible captain). Mark Hardy-type perhaps (not as much offensive upside as what mark had early in his career though). To me, he's arguably the most underrated of all Kings prospects, and defeinately the most underrated d-man.
You make an excellent point in comparing his game to Harpo's. I remember Mark's rookie season and while I hadn't considered KG's game to be similar to his before you mentioned it the two really are very close in style and ability (or were at the same points in their careers).

I would go with Harpo being an excellent comparison.

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08-08-2012, 10:37 PM
  #113
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In the event of a lockout what does the roster look like???

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