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Old
07-25-2012, 10:57 AM
  #176
BrindamoursNose
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Originally Posted by kevindank View Post
I like Shane Doan. I get the fact that he's a great leader, plays the game right, would be a good influence on our young forward crop, I wouldn't complain if we got him, however signing Shane Doan should not be our focus. I would not handicap our ability to get a defense upgrade just to sign him.

The Rangers are going to steamroll us again this year unless we address our biggest problem, Defense. We lost a great deal of our offense from our defensemen when Tampa signed Carle. Yandle would be a nice addition. However i still think we then need another defensive defensemen that can lead the team in hits and shut down other teams D.
I think it's the problem of a system rather than actual defensively capable personnel. I like all of our defensemen, actually...I don't think Laviolette plays a system that helps them though.

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07-25-2012, 11:11 AM
  #177
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Originally Posted by kevindank View Post
I like Shane Doan. I get the fact that he's a great leader, plays the game right, would be a good influence on our young forward crop, I wouldn't complain if we got him, however signing Shane Doan should not be our focus. I would not handicap our ability to get a defense upgrade just to sign him.

The Rangers are going to steamroll us again this year unless we address our biggest problem, Defense. We lost a great deal of our offense from our defensemen when Tampa signed Carle. Yandle would be a nice addition. However i still think we then need another defensive defensemen that can lead the team in hits and shut down other teams D.
The need for defense is being severely overblown. We need execution of the system, or an overhaul of the system itself. The personnel is still amongst tops in the league. Timonen, Mez, and Coburn aren't offensive d-men, but they're no slouches offensively.

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07-25-2012, 11:23 AM
  #178
Kevin Danko
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Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
The need for defense is being severely overblown. We need execution of the system, or an overhaul of the system itself.
I don't believe it's being overblown at all, i don't think it's time to ring the bell and sound the alarm either. We lost 30 assists and a guy who plays 20+ minutes a game, Our Defense struggled in the playoffs and for a good part of the regular season. We always seemed to be looking for an answer on D.
  • Coburn is our most steady defensemen, never seems to get hurt, but his offense has dropped off as well.
  • Mez's back is a concern.
  • Schenn needs to have a huge comeback year after having a bad year in Toronto. Although he did put up 275 hits.
  • Lilja sucks.
  • Gus gets hit hard almost every single game, needs playing time could potentially be a 3/4 pairing guy in a few years, not an immediate help though.
  • Full year with Grossman is going to be a huge plus. However he's not a puck moving guy, don't expect him to pick up the offense.

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07-25-2012, 11:33 AM
  #179
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I think the best thing they can do is look to acquire somebody who needs a change of scenery for fairly cheap. Bouwmeester or Chris Stewart to name a few examples. They're a far cry from Weber or Parise but it may be worth the risk if you can acquire them cheap.

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07-25-2012, 11:36 AM
  #180
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Originally Posted by kevindank View Post
This entire situation and offer sheets in general the past few years have been completely frustrating.

1. Why don't the flyers finally make an effort to draft Defensemen and Goalies in the first round of the Draft, and actually build a core rather then via trade/offer sheet.

2. Believe it or not, the hate most of you have for Matt Carle blinds you to the fact that he was an offensive defensemen which we are going to miss on the back end...we need outlet passes, Matt Carle's offense will be missed on D.

3. We do not need forward offense. No need for Shane Doan, Bobby Ryan, Rick Nash, Whoever else is the hot commodity this week. It's nice to have during the regular season and if someone can chip in goals during the playoffs then im for it, however come playoff time no one is scoring 6 goals a game...we need someone who can shut down Gaborik, Nash, Richards...Malkin, Crosby, Neal...someone who can clear the crease, keep guys to the outside and move the puck. We need a bigger puck moving defensemen that averages about 30 assists a year as well as a certified Shut down defensemen ( hard to find but easier if your looking for a 3-4 then a #1.) It may not be Shea Weber but it will be someone who can play 20+ minutes a game and preserve Timmonen for the playoffs.)

4. What the hell happened to everyone all crazy about Matt Read going into camp last year, i mean the guy was great for us and put up better then average numbers for a rookie last year and suddenly he's the big trading chip. The guy plays all positions including the point on the powerplay. The only way i'd move matt read is for a bonafied offensive defensemen under 35.

5. Why all the hate for Mez, he was hurt a lot last year but had some shining moments, i would keep Mez, he's an offensive mind larger body defensemen much like I described what we need...if his offensive numbers increase and he can stay healthy for us then thats a tremendous upgrade over last year.
1- Couldn't agree less. Flyers drafting has been as good as anyone in the league. Why would they change their method?

2- A whole bunch of secondary assists.

3- I agree we don't need any more offensive forwards. They tried to get Suter and then Weber. They got Schenn, who is year's removed from what point 1 would have gotten and you have to live with the growing pains. D take long to develop and goalies even longer.

4- Couldn't agree more.

5- Couldn't agree more.

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07-25-2012, 11:40 AM
  #181
Kevin Danko
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Originally Posted by BillDineen View Post
1- Couldn't agree less. Flyers drafting has been as good as anyone in the league. Why would they change their method?
I think there forward drafting has been great, But what Flyers Goalie or Defensemen that was drafted by the club has worked out since the lockout.


Flyers Goalies and Defensemen Draftpicks from 2004-2010.


2004 8rd 253 Travis Gawryletz Canada D
2005 3rd 91 Oskars Bartulis* Latvia D
2005 4 119 Jeremy Duchesne* Canada G
2005 6 174 John Flatters Canada D
2006 2 42 Mike Ratchuk United States D
2006 2 55 Denis Bodrov Russia D
2006 4 101 Joonas Lehtivuori Finland D
2006 4 109 Jakub Kovar Czech Republic G
2006 6 175 Michael Dupont Switzerland G
2007 2 41 Kevin Marshall* Canada D
2007 7 182 Brad Phillips United States G
2008 1 19 Luca Sbisa Switzerland D
2008 3 67 Marc-Andre Bourdon* Canada D
2008 3 84 Jacob DeSerres Canada G
2008 7 196 Joacim Eriksson Sweden G
2009 3 81 Adam Morrison Canada G
2009 3 87 Simon Bertilsson Sweden D
2009 5 142 Nicola Riopel Canada G
2009 7 196 Oliver Lauridsen Denmark D
2010 5 179 Nicholas Luukko United States D
2010 7 206 Ricard Blidstrand Sweden D


Last edited by Kevin Danko: 07-25-2012 at 11:50 AM.
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07-25-2012, 11:51 AM
  #182
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Originally Posted by kevindank View Post
I think there forward drafting has been great, But what Flyers Goalie or Defensemen that was drafted by the club has worked out since the lockout.
What picks have we had!!

Seriously...the trading for players for high picks HAS to stop. It's one thing if we were stacked in the farm...

We could (and I'm aware we would need to pick them) have carlson, sbisa, percy in the system now...instead we have nothing.

Sign UFAs....or wait it out...

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07-25-2012, 11:57 AM
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevindank View Post
I think there forward drafting has been great, But what Flyers Goalie or Defensemen that was drafted by the club has worked out since the lockout.
Bobrovsky was signed. Any drafted goalie would take too long to develop. Hovinen was drafted by the ducks and did not develop quickly enough to be signed by them and the Flyers chose to sign him over Sunshine. Goalies take too long to develop.

Outside of drafting Sbisa (traded) and Bourdon the Flyers D as a whole is young and they were top draft picks acquired after:

Coburn age 27 drafted 8/2003 Atlanta
Grossmann age 27 drafted 2nd Round 2004 Dallas
Meszaros age 26 drafted 23/2004 Ottawa
Schenn age 22 drafted 5/2008 Toronto

If the Flyers draft forwards well, they can use those assets to acquire young D. Gustafsson was a good signing. Have a look at all the first round defensemen selected in the last decade. Most are busts or average D men. Weber was a second rounder and Yandle at 4th rounder. Those were diamonds in the ruff.

Flyers don't need any young more young defensemen in general, they want a younger 1 d to replace Timonen. They are not going to get that through the draft picking in the 20s every year.

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07-25-2012, 12:03 PM
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevindank View Post
I think there forward drafting has been great, But what Flyers Goalie or Defensemen that was drafted by the club has worked out since the lockout.


Flyers Goalies and Defensemen Draftpicks from 2004-2010.


2004 8rd 253 Travis Gawryletz Canada D
2005 3rd 91 Oskars Bartulis* Latvia D
2005 4 119 Jeremy Duchesne* Canada G
2005 6 174 John Flatters Canada D
2006 2 42 Mike Ratchuk United States D
2006 2 55 Denis Bodrov Russia D
2006 4 101 Joonas Lehtivuori Finland D
2006 4 109 Jakub Kovar Czech Republic G
2006 6 175 Michael Dupont Switzerland G
2007 2 41 Kevin Marshall* Canada D
2007 7 182 Brad Phillips United States G
2008 1 19 Luca Sbisa Switzerland D
2008 3 67 Marc-Andre Bourdon* Canada D
2008 3 84 Jacob DeSerres Canada G
2008 7 196 Joacim Eriksson Sweden G
2009 3 81 Adam Morrison Canada G
2009 3 87 Simon Bertilsson Sweden D
2009 5 142 Nicola Riopel Canada G
2009 7 196 Oliver Lauridsen Denmark D
2010 5 179 Nicholas Luukko United States D
2010 7 206 Ricard Blidstrand Sweden D
If you go to hockeydb you can look at drafts by team and they all will look like that. Also, if you look at draft by year, you can sort by D and see it is a crap shoot outside of the top picks.

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07-25-2012, 12:06 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by BillDineen View Post
If you go to hockeydb you can look at drafts by team and they all will look like that. Also, if you look at draft by year, you can sort by D and see it is a crap shoot outside of the top picks.
I know, I understand that drafting D or G is risky and getting a winner is tough, but with scouts focusing on a goalie or defenseman, your going to do better then drafting Nick Luukko.

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07-25-2012, 12:08 PM
  #186
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Take Detroit for example:


2010 Entry 141 5 Petr Mrazek G
2010 Entry 201 7 Ben Marshall D
2009 Entry 90 3 Gleason Fournier D
2009 Entry 150 5 Nick Jensen D
2009 Entry 210 7 Adam Almquist D
2008 Entry 30 1 Thomas McCollum G
2008 Entry 91 3 Max Nicastro D
2007 Entry 27 1 Brendan Smith D
2007 Entry 208 7 Bryan Rufenach D
2006 Entry 92 3 Daniel Larsson G
2006 Entry 212 7 Logan Pyett D
2005 Entry 19 1 Jakub Kindl D
2005 Entry 151 5 Jeff May D
2005 Entry 175 6 Juho Mielonen D
2005 Entry 214 7 Bretton Stamler D
2004 Entry 151 5 Sergei Kolosov D
2004 Entry 290 9 Nils Backstrom D
2003 Entry 64 2 Jim Howard G
2003 Entry 132 4 Kyle Quincey D

I added 2003 because they got Howard, but their supposed great scouting staff has not done better than the Flyers.

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07-25-2012, 12:11 PM
  #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevindank View Post
I know, I understand that drafting D or G is risky and getting a winner is tough, but with scouts focusing on a goalie or defenseman, your going to do better then drafting Nick Luukko.
I like picks like Shayne Gostisbehere that have higher upside. I believe taking gambles with later picks on D or F are better than picking players with limited upside like Luuko, Klotz, Matthers etc.

I would actually prefer the Flyers never draft a goalie again, but I am likely in the minority on that one.

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07-25-2012, 12:19 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by BillDineen View Post
Take Detroit for example:


2010 Entry 141 5 Petr Mrazek G
2010 Entry 201 7 Ben Marshall D
2009 Entry 90 3 Gleason Fournier D
2009 Entry 150 5 Nick Jensen D
2009 Entry 210 7 Adam Almquist D
2008 Entry 30 1 Thomas McCollum G
2008 Entry 91 3 Max Nicastro D
2007 Entry 27 1 Brendan Smith D
2007 Entry 208 7 Bryan Rufenach D
2006 Entry 92 3 Daniel Larsson G
2006 Entry 212 7 Logan Pyett D
2005 Entry 19 1 Jakub Kindl D
2005 Entry 151 5 Jeff May D
2005 Entry 175 6 Juho Mielonen D
2005 Entry 214 7 Bretton Stamler D
2004 Entry 151 5 Sergei Kolosov D
2004 Entry 290 9 Nils Backstrom D
2003 Entry 64 2 Jim Howard G
2003 Entry 132 4 Kyle Quincey D

I added 2003 because they got Howard, but their supposed great scouting staff has not done better than the Flyers.
Your right, and you can probably look around the league and your not going to find a team that has a stockpile/hidden cache of D and Goalies just waiting in the minors, but our problem is we have nothing in the cupboard but Gus, MAB, and maybe Manning. If you go by what the majority of people are saying they'd like to trade Gus+ to Anaheim for Ryan.

We go for a big trade for a Defensemen and end up giving up big pieces of the team or potentially losing Coots or Schenn. My point is I'd like the flyers to be aggressive in the draft in the couple years, and pick a defensemen in the 1st or 2nd round, and develop the guy. Our forwards are absolutely great right now, but you trade Gus for Ryan and your left with Manning and MAB.

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07-25-2012, 12:28 PM
  #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevindank View Post
Your right, and you can probably look around the league and your not going to find a team that has a stockpile/hidden cache of D and Goalies just waiting in the minors, but our problem is we have nothing in the cupboard but Gus, MAB, and maybe Manning. If you go by what the majority of people are saying they'd like to trade Gus+ to Anaheim for Ryan.

We go for a big trade for a Defensemen and end up giving up big pieces of the team or potentially losing Coots or Schenn. My point is I'd like the flyers to be aggressive in the draft in the couple years, and pick a defensemen in the 1st or 2nd round, and develop the guy. Our forwards are absolutely great right now, but you trade Gus for Ryan and your left with Manning and MAB.
The Islanders only drafted D men this year, we'll have to see how many NHL regulars they get out of it.

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07-25-2012, 12:32 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
The Islanders only drafted D men this year, we'll have to see how many NHL regulars they get out of it.
Im not saying draft only D. Im saying how about drafting A defenseman. You know it's an organizational need, why not address it.

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07-25-2012, 12:44 PM
  #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevindank View Post
I don't believe it's being overblown at all, i don't think it's time to ring the bell and sound the alarm either. We lost 30 assists and a guy who plays 20+ minutes a game, Our Defense struggled in the playoffs and for a good part of the regular season. We always seemed to be looking for an answer on D.
  • Coburn is our most steady defensemen, never seems to get hurt, but his offense has dropped off as well.
  • Mez's back is a concern.
  • Schenn needs to have a huge comeback year after having a bad year in Toronto. Although he did put up 275 hits.
  • Lilja sucks.
  • Gus gets hit hard almost every single game, needs playing time could potentially be a 3/4 pairing guy in a few years, not an immediate help though.
  • Full year with Grossman is going to be a huge plus. However he's not a puck moving guy, don't expect him to pick up the offense.
I think the offense we lost in Carle is offset by the physicality and defense we added in Schenn, and he's no bum offensively. We'll be fine with what we have as long as they stay healthy. Lilja doesn't suck, he's fine as a 6-7 dman. Gus, MAB, Manning, and now likely Lauridsen will get ample opportunity to prove themselves this year IF there are injuries. Like I said, it's the system. They need to execute and play great hockey, like NYR did, like NJ did, like LA did, all strong defensive systems without great talent. We played sloppy.

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07-25-2012, 01:33 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
like NYR did, like NJ did, like LA did, all strong defensive systems without great talent. We played sloppy.
I understand your point and suspect that we'll be in for a coaching change if we need a system change.

That said, NYR some of the best defensive talent in the league. We're definitely not in the same category as them when comparing blue line talent.... not even close. They've got a more talented top 4 than us by a decent amount. Ryan McDonaugh looks like a legitimate young number 1.

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07-25-2012, 02:00 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
The Islanders only drafted D men this year, we'll have to see how many NHL regulars they get out of it.
We'll be lucky to have more than 1 with our piss poor player development.

You guys will be fine on defense with a full season of Grossman and addition of Schenn and that's despite losing Carle.
I think you're a better team and Holmgren isn't done yet.

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07-25-2012, 02:14 PM
  #194
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I understand your point and suspect that we'll be in for a coaching change if we need a system change.

That said, NYR some of the best defensive talent in the league. We're definitely not in the same category as them when comparing blue line talent.... not even close. They've got a more talented top 4 than us by a decent amount. Ryan McDonaugh looks like a legitimate young number 1.
I agree that McD and Staal are both blossoming into top tier defensemen, and Del Zotto to an extent, though I still have reservations about his defensive play. Girardi is an absolute horse and perfect for Torts' system. Better than our top 4 by a decent amount? I really don't agree. Perhaps it's confidence for NY knowing that all their forwards will be backchecking heavily and blocking shots, and they have the best goalie in the league behind them.

Our defense is really getting the short end of the stick here. They had a bad season after getting an inconsistent headcase put behind them last season, their captain and defensive leader/legend getting knocked out for the season with a freak injury, as well as several of the better backchecking forwards being traded from the team in return for several very young players unfamiliar with the system. I think they'll be much better this season, as will Bryz, as will our forwards. Team defense will improve dramatically, which will make the actual defense look much better. The personnel is fine.

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07-25-2012, 02:37 PM
  #195
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I'm hoping and trusting that the coaching staff has the foresight to consider the personnel we have on defense and change the defensive scheme for this season rather then the join the rush-run and gun style. I think this would help our younger D develop, our unit as a whole be able to withstand increased minutes from Carle's departure, and most importantly help Bryz with a more defensively responsible scheme.

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07-25-2012, 03:16 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
The need for defense is being severely overblown. We need execution of the system, or an overhaul of the system itself. The personnel is still amongst tops in the league. Timonen, Mez, and Coburn aren't offensive d-men, but they're no slouches offensively.
^ this. Honestly, all this doom and gloom is completely over blown. As well, Laviolette is pretty damned good coach, so I'm pretty sure that he is going to change the game plan with regards to the D. The biggest issue will be getting the forwards to play a little tighter defensively, which I don't see as being a problem either. If they played like they did during the 2010 Stanley Cup run, they're going to be perfectly fine.

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07-25-2012, 03:20 PM
  #197
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Okay so Bill Meltzer just started tweeting about how the Flyers should take a stab at Zach Bogosian. That is something I would have never thought of. He made a lot of great points about how him and L. Schenn were both rushed into the league at 18 for their respective teams. He talked about how at 22 Shea Weber only had 28 GP in the NHL and Bogosian has 264 (trying to remember the exact number). How Chris Prongers first few years in the NHL he was called a bust and it takes time to develop.

My Questions are:

1) Do the Jets even think about trading Bogosian? I haven't heard rumors, but I know he hasn't worked out the way they wish he would.

2) What do you think about the possibility and what would we have to give up?

After looking into it.. I think it would be awesome. Having him and Schenn both have a new place to play and a fresh start. One of them is bound to become the Dman they were originally slated to become. It gives the D core more competition within to become better and younger. Bogosian was a #3 overall pick by the Thrashers and was looked at as their answer on D at the age of 18. Schenn was the #5 pick for Toronto and was thrown right on the team with the crazy pressure of Toronto. Fresh starts for both of these guys could prove to be HUGE in their development.

What say ye?

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07-25-2012, 03:24 PM
  #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevindank View Post
I think there forward drafting has been great, But what Flyers Goalie or Defensemen that was drafted by the club has worked out since the lockout.


Flyers Goalies and Defensemen Draftpicks from 2004-2010.


2004 8rd 253 Travis Gawryletz Canada D
2005 3rd 91 Oskars Bartulis* Latvia D
2005 4 119 Jeremy Duchesne* Canada G
2005 6 174 John Flatters Canada D
2006 2 42 Mike Ratchuk United States D
2006 2 55 Denis Bodrov Russia D
2006 4 101 Joonas Lehtivuori Finland D
2006 4 109 Jakub Kovar Czech Republic G
2006 6 175 Michael Dupont Switzerland G
2007 2 41 Kevin Marshall* Canada D
2007 7 182 Brad Phillips United States G
2008 1 19 Luca Sbisa Switzerland D
2008 3 67 Marc-Andre Bourdon* Canada D
2008 3 84 Jacob DeSerres Canada G
2008 7 196 Joacim Eriksson Sweden G
2009 3 81 Adam Morrison Canada G
2009 3 87 Simon Bertilsson Sweden D
2009 5 142 Nicola Riopel Canada G
2009 7 196 Oliver Lauridsen Denmark D
2010 5 179 Nicholas Luukko United States D
2010 7 206 Ricard Blidstrand Sweden D
This guy signed a pretty big contract this year. He also happens to be the only 1st rounder of the bunch.

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07-25-2012, 03:39 PM
  #199
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Jesus christ why does everyone want to get rid of Voracek???

Don't you realize how valuable someone like that is?? I hope we keep him for a long time even if he doesn't develop into a 75 pt getter. This guy screams devotion and hard work and raw talent.

As Cartman from South Park would say..... "F you guys, I'm going home..."

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07-25-2012, 04:06 PM
  #200
achdumeingute
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brozgalov View Post
Okay so Bill Meltzer just started tweeting about how the Flyers should take a stab at Zach Bogosian. That is something I would have never thought of. He made a lot of great points about how him and L. Schenn were both rushed into the league at 18 for their respective teams. He talked about how at 22 Shea Weber only had 28 GP in the NHL and Bogosian has 264 (trying to remember the exact number). How Chris Prongers first few years in the NHL he was called a bust and it takes time to develop.

My Questions are:

1) Do the Jets even think about trading Bogosian? I haven't heard rumors, but I know he hasn't worked out the way they wish he would.

2) What do you think about the possibility and what would we have to give up?

After looking into it.. I think it would be awesome. Having him and Schenn both have a new place to play and a fresh start. One of them is bound to become the Dman they were originally slated to become. It gives the D core more competition within to become better and younger. Bogosian was a #3 overall pick by the Thrashers and was looked at as their answer on D at the age of 18. Schenn was the #5 pick for Toronto and was thrown right on the team with the crazy pressure of Toronto. Fresh starts for both of these guys could prove to be HUGE in their development.

What say ye?
They love bogo now. Either bogo or gubrandson would be perfect awesome targets...but now we are back in the Schenn couts leaving area again. Both teams need a 2nd line C.

Forget it, it's fantasyland.

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