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Redemption? Players who need to bounce back.

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Old
07-25-2012, 02:21 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by CarlWinslow View Post
I still don't get why you want Vanek to respond. Its such an awful idea. What is the point of him getting obliterated by Lucic? It literally serves no purpose as he will just give the Bruin team more of a boost when he gets beat down too.

In that situation I would have loved to see someone chop Lucic in the back of the knee. Cheap or not, I don't care.

I suppose the proper response would be to send out a "heavyweight" shortly thereafter to beat down Lucic. The Sabres now have one where-as they didn't before.

The one good suggestion was perhaps to have all 5 guys mug Lucic. Even after that though a proper fight should occur later with a person who could handle Lucic.
I think sometimes fans get caught up with how things 'should' be done. The point is that anything, including a 'cheap' mugging of Lucic or a sacrificial beat down of one of our skilled guys would have been preferable to the lack of team-unity that was shown. I'd have much rather seen Vanek or Pommers or Stafford drop the gloves and get pounded. Yeah, they can't fight worth a damn, but that would show that they give a damn.

You can't expect it, but sometimes acting out of character is a necessity.

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07-25-2012, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Sekera can play physical? Is that a typo? I assume you mean he can't play physical.

I think Stafford is going to break out and have a career year, 35-40 goals.

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07-25-2012, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by CarlWinslow View Post
I still don't get why you want Vanek to respond. Its such an awful idea. What is the point of him getting obliterated by Lucic? It literally serves no purpose as he will just give the Bruin team more of a boost when he gets beat down too.

In that situation I would have loved to see someone chop Lucic in the back of the knee. Cheap or not, I don't care.

I suppose the proper response would be to send out a "heavyweight" shortly thereafter to beat down Lucic. The Sabres now have one where-as they didn't before.

The one good suggestion was perhaps to have all 5 guys mug Lucic. Even after that though a proper fight should occur later with a person who could handle Lucic.
Leaders have to respond in that situation. it's that simple

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07-25-2012, 02:25 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Der Jaeger View Post
I wrote it correctly. Define "physical" for you. That might explain the difference.
I define it in the traditional sense, as a guy who throws his weight around. You don't have to be big to play a physical brand of hockey, but Sekera plays a finese game, not a physical game.

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07-25-2012, 02:30 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Yea... im crazy for wanting the leaders on this team to stand up for their teammates, especially in an incident like the Lucic one...

yea... im crazy

Im not asking vanek to take 5 minute majors every 3-5 games... im talking about a specific incident. You don't get a free pass because of your skill set, or how much money you make. When your goalie gets obliterated... or any player for that matter gets run like that... then you step up. if that "lightbulb" doesn't go off immediately, then that's a guy you don;t need,.

so if the same incident happened tomorrow, and Vanek reacts the same way... again... you're ok with that?

im not



nope

So you would rather our star scorer first takes himself out of the game for 5 minutes, and risks himself being injured? That makes no sense. For a guy like Vanek, you should be expecting to make them pay on the scoreboard, not by dropping the gloves. You should be disappointed that Vanek and the other skilled players didn't stick it to boston by putting up points on them. Expecting him to get into a fight in this situation would be like expecting Sidney Crosby, or Steve Stamkos, or the Sedins to get into a fight. It's not going to happen. You expecting that type of player to get into a fight is both unreasonable and ignorant. Those players won't take themselves out of the game OR risk getting injured just to get their face bashed in by a goon. If you want proof, go on the Penguins board and ask if the Pens fans would expect the same from Crosby. They'd laugh you out of their boards. So yes it IS crazy to expect that out of a player like vanek. Sure you can expect it out of a Gaustad, Tropp, Weber, Regehr, Kaleta, or even Myers to an extent, but there is no reason to expect that out of Vanek or Pomminville.

At this point, I would have to say this to your thinking that Vanek should fight ANYONE:



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07-25-2012, 02:32 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by HiddenInLight View Post
So you would rather our star scorer first takes himself out of the game for 5 minutes, and risks himself being injured? That makes no sense. For a guy like Vanek, you should be expecting to make them pay on the scoreboard, not by dropping the gloves. You should be disappointed that Vanek and the other skilled players didn't stick it to boston by putting up points on them. Expecting him to get into a fight in this situation would be like expecting Sidney Crosby, or Steve Stamkos, or the Sedins to get into a fight. It's not going to happen. You expecting that type of player to get into a fight is both unreasonable and ignorant. Those players won't take themselves out of the game OR risk getting injured just to get their face bashed in by a goon. If you want proof, go on the Penguins board and ask if the Pens fans would expect the same from Crosby. They'd laugh you out of their boards. So yes it IS crazy to expect that out of a player like vanek. Sure you can expect it out of a Gaustad, Tropp, Weber, Regehr, Kaleta, or even Myers to an extent, but there is no reason to expect that out of Vanek or Pomminville.

At this point, I would have to say this to your thinking that Vanek should fight ANYONE:


You're 100% right... provided there is someone else on our roster who would do it. The problem is that last year we didn't have anyone. And sometimes, when the biggest star on this team (hint: it's Miller) is cheap shotted, guys who have letters on their chest need to step up.

Jame doesn't want Vanek chucking his mitts every week; he wants him and others like him to respond once in a great while when it's clear the point that needs to be made supersedes the person making it. And he's absolutely right.

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07-25-2012, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by jamers View Post
I think sometimes fans get caught up with how things 'should' be done. The point is that anything, including a 'cheap' mugging of Lucic or a sacrificial beat down of one of our skilled guys would have been preferable to the lack of team-unity that was shown. I'd have much rather seen Vanek or Pommers or Stafford drop the gloves and get pounded. Yeah, they can't fight worth a damn, but that would show that they give a damn.

You can't expect it, but sometimes acting out of character is a necessity.
Remember the Drury incident (ottawa)... even Drew Stafford knew IMMEDIATELY that he had to go take a beating from Neil... He didn't even think twice about.

I'll never forget the way Vanek reacted

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07-25-2012, 02:38 PM
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Remember the Drury incident (ottawa)... even Drew Stafford knew IMMEDIATELY that he had to go take a beating from Neil... He didn't even think twice about.

I'll never forget the way Vanek reacted
Good call, Stafford is/was basically the only skill forward we have who will do that... which says so much about our team.

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07-25-2012, 02:38 PM
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You're 100% right... provided there is someone else on our roster who would do it. The problem is that last year we didn't have anyone. And sometimes, when the biggest star on this team (hint: it's Miller) is cheap shotted, guys who have letters on their chest need to step up.

Jame doesn't want Vanek chucking his mitts every week; he wants him and others like him to respond once in a great while when it's clear the point that needs to be made supersedes the person making it. And he's absolutely right.
There WAS guys on the roster who could do it though:

Regehr, Gaustad (WAS ON THE ICE), Myers. Cant remember if they were hurt at the time, but: McCormick and Kaleta.

Any of them could have fought Lucic. Those are the guys you should be disappointed in. NOT Vanek. If anything you should be disappointed in vanek for not going out there and scoring 2-3 goals on them to stick it to them that way. THAT I could understand, but expecting Vanek to fight is ludicrous!

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07-25-2012, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by HiddenInLight View Post
There WAS guys on the roster who could do it though:

Regehr, Gaustad (WAS ON THE ICE), Myers. Cant remember if they were hurt at the time, but: McCormick and Kaleta.

Any of them could have fought Lucic. Those are the guys you should be disappointed in. NOT Vanek. If anything you should be disappointed in vanek for not going out there and scoring 2-3 goals on them to stick it to them that way. THAT I could understand, but expecting Vanek to fight is ludicrous!
I'm not disappointed in Vanek above the rest -- obviously the guys who you'd expect to do that (and really, none of the players you mentioned are fighters to any real degree with the exception of McCormick) carry more of the burden. But when nobody (either on the ice or on the bench) does anything that game, everyone has some responsibility, particularly the ones with letters on their sweaters, because team inaction points right back at them.

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07-25-2012, 02:41 PM
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I define it in the traditional sense, as a guy who throws his weight around. You don't have to be big to play a physical brand of hockey, but Sekera plays a finese game, not a physical game.
I don't think playing physical solely means throwing weight around. For me, physical means using one's own body, not stick, to move another player or absorb an attempt from another player to move him and not move yourself. I like this way of defining physical, because it accounts for holding position in front of the net, holding position on the boards, etc. Hitting is also in here.

I define finesse play as body positioning, movement, and stick usage to gain an advantage.

Sekera isn't a Chris Pronger-esque sledgehammer. But he plays physical.

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07-25-2012, 02:41 PM
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So you would rather our star scorer first takes himself out of the game for 5 minutes, and risks himself being injured? That makes no sense.
Yes, I would rather that happen.

Do you remember what happened instead? The team's lack of action, made them a mockery, and they mentally wilted, taking months to recover.

Yes. I would rather see our 30 goal scorer stand up for the supposed backbone of our team/face of the franchise.

But hey... this is why I've hated this team's make up for 5 years, and you've probably defended them


Quote:
For a guy like Vanek, you should be expecting to make them pay on the scoreboard, not by dropping the gloves. You should be disappointed that Vanek and the other skilled players didn't stick it to boston by putting up points on them. Expecting him to get into a fight in this situation would be like expecting Sidney Crosby, or Steve Stamkos, or the Sedins to get into a fight.
Crosby... good example. Crosby would have defended his teammate



You want me to post some more videos of star player/leaders who aren't gigantic ******* like Vanek?

Quote:
It's not going to happen. You expecting that type of player to get into a fight is both unreasonable and ignorant.


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Those players won't take themselves out of the game OR risk getting injured just to get their face bashed in by a goon. If you want proof, go on the Penguins board and ask if the Pens fans would expect the same from Crosby. They'd laugh you out of their boards. So yes it IS crazy to expect that out of a player like vanek. Sure you can expect it out of a Gaustad, Tropp, Weber, Regehr, Kaleta, or even Myers to an extent, but there is no reason to expect that out of Vanek or Pomminville.
You keep acting like one specific incident should be measured the same as any other moment in the game

No one is saying that Vanek should drop the gloves everytime someone gets crossed checked.

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07-25-2012, 02:41 PM
  #63
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Sekera can play physical? Is that a typo? I assume you mean he can't play physical.

I think Stafford is going to break out and have a career year, 35-40 goals.













Sekera can definitely play physical. He's more of a positional guy, but he knows how to separate bodies from pucks.

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07-25-2012, 02:43 PM
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You're 100% right... provided there is someone else on our roster who would do it. The problem is that last year we didn't have anyone. And sometimes, when the biggest star on this team (hint: it's Miller) is cheap shotted, guys who have letters on their chest need to step up.

Jame doesn't want Vanek chucking his mitts every week; he wants him and others like him to respond once in a great while when it's clear the point that needs to be made supersedes the person making it. And he's absolutely right.
exactly, there is no excuse for THAT incident. None. Anyone who makes one is a gigantic baby.

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07-25-2012, 02:44 PM
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I'm not disappointed in Vanek above the rest -- obviously the guys who you'd expect to do that (and really, none of the players you mentioned are fighters to any real degree with the exception of McCormick) carry more of the burden. But when nobody (either on the ice or on the bench) does anything that game, everyone has some responsibility, particularly the ones with letters on their sweaters, because team inaction points right back at them.
Point at Gaustad then. That was part of his role AND he wore a letter. Again, each player needs to stick within his role, and show them that they can't be intimidated through their own Role. Scorers should have put up more points, run tim thomas out of net! Hitters shouldn't have let a single bruins player touch the puck without getting flattened. Fighters should have fought. I could understand being upset that the team took NO action, but expecting even the skilled players to fight is just stupid. Again, go ask the Pens board if they would expect that of Crosby. Youd get laughed out of there, maybe even get a Trolling infraction. Thats how insanely stupid the idea is.

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07-25-2012, 02:45 PM
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Point at Gaustad then. That was part of his role AND he wore a letter. Again, each player needs to stick within his role, and show them that they can't be intimidated through their own Role. Scorers should have put up more points, run tim thomas out of net! Hitters shouldn't have let a single bruins player touch the puck without getting flattened. Fighters should have fought. I could understand being upset that the team took NO action, but expecting even the skilled players to fight is just stupid. Again, go ask the Pens board if they would expect that of Crosby. Youd get laughed out of there, maybe even get a Trolling infraction. Thats how insanely stupid the idea is.
Except Crosby has fought. See the video above of Crosby sticking up for Malkin. Yes, every player has his role, but sometimes players need to step outside of their comfort zone -- which clearly our team was not prepared or willing to do when it happened.

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07-25-2012, 02:46 PM
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There WAS guys on the roster who could do it though:

Regehr, Gaustad (WAS ON THE ICE), Myers. Cant remember if they were hurt at the time, but: McCormick and Kaleta.

Any of them could have fought Lucic. Those are the guys you should be disappointed in. NOT Vanek. If anything you should be disappointed in vanek for not going out there and scoring 2-3 goals on them to stick it to them that way. THAT I could understand, but expecting Vanek to fight is ludicrous!
Vanek was the first one there... he basically said, "oh hey, you just laid out our goaltender... but, you know... im paid to score... so... see ya later"

**** that
**** players like that
gimme mike richards or jerome iginla... those guys would NEVER allow that **** to happen and just walk away

i hate that our fan base accepts this kind of **** from a 50 million dollar player.

i expect ANY/EVERY player on the ice during that incident to respond.

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07-25-2012, 02:47 PM
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Remember the Drury incident (ottawa)... even Drew Stafford knew IMMEDIATELY that he had to go take a beating from Neil... He didn't even think twice about.

I'll never forget the way Vanek reacted
While Stafford did the right thing, the situation was a bit different. Stafford was an unestablished rookie, and if he had not responded he would have found himself in a bad position career wise. Vanek on the other hand is established and knows his role. Not defending him, or demeaning Stafford, but you can see a difference in motives and mindset.

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07-25-2012, 02:49 PM
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Point at Gaustad then. That was part of his role AND he wore a letter. Again, each player needs to stick within his role, and show them that they can't be intimidated through their own Role. Scorers should have put up more points, run tim thomas out of net! Hitters shouldn't have let a single bruins player touch the puck without getting flattened. Fighters should have fought. I could understand being upset that the team took NO action, but expecting even the skilled players to fight is just stupid. Again, go ask the Pens board if they would expect that of Crosby. Youd get laughed out of there, maybe even get a Trolling infraction. Thats how insanely stupid the idea is.
that's some inspiring ****... i bet Lindy Ruff tells them that.

"Stick to your role! If you're paid more then 3 million dollars, do not defend your goaltender! That's not what you are here to do"



Crsoby fighting Ballard standing up for a teammate after Ballard went low on him. get a clue.

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07-25-2012, 02:49 PM
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While Stafford did the right thing, the situation was a bit different. Stafford was an unestablished rookie, and if he had not responded he would have found himself in a bad position career wise. Vanek on the other hand is established and knows his role. Not defending him, or demeaning Stafford, but you can see a difference in motives and mindset.
You make a good point, but Stafford still has a bit of fire in his belly. Remember that incident early last season where Stafford skated hard up ice in response to a cheap play? He ended up getting a penalty out of it and fans lambasted him -- I forget what team it was or what the situation was, but he was the farthest skater from the play and the only one to do anything about it.


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07-25-2012, 02:50 PM
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Except Crosby has fought. See the video above of Crosby sticking up for Malkin. Yes, every player has his role, but sometimes players need to step outside of their comfort zone -- which clearly our team was not prepared or willing to do when it happened.
Crosby fighting isn't stepping out of his character or comfort zone though. Role? Yes. But he's also always been a guy who initiates physical play. The Sedins, Stamkos, Kane, etc. are guys that you won't see fighting.
Really, the guy on the ice who should be taking the bulk of the heat for not responding is Gaustad. He wore an A. That was part of his role. Should Vanek have done more? Maybe, but that's not his job -- Goose was right there, and that was his job, and he didn't do it.

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07-25-2012, 02:51 PM
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Except Crosby has fought. See the video above of Crosby sticking up for Malkin. Yes, every player has his role, but sometimes players need to step outside of their comfort zone -- which clearly our team was not prepared or willing to do when it happened.
While Crosby HAS fought in the past, it isnt EXPECTED of him. People wouldn't point the finger and say crosby should be removed from the team because he didn't fight sombody. They would say its a good thing he didn't fight. He is more useful to the team scoring goals then injured or in the box. It's not his JOB to fight anybody. While you can say hes the captain he should stick up for his team, then why don't you mention Pomminville? He certainly didn't fight Lucic. But keep pushing your agenda. Whos your next scapegoat after Vanek? Note how many people suddenly hate Vanek now that Roy is gone.

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07-25-2012, 02:51 PM
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While Stafford did the right thing, the situation was a bit different. Stafford was an unestablished rookie, and if he had not responded he would have found himself in a bad position career wise. Vanek on the other hand is established and knows his role. Not defending him, or demeaning Stafford, but you can see a difference in motives and mindset.
That's the most awesomely horrible excuse I have ever heard.

i actually agree with you. I think you are exactly right about Vanek's motives/mindset. I think he believes it his not his role. And he got paid 50 million after his 2nd year, and has had limited motivation since then.

if Your goaltender getting annihilated isn't enough motivation to drop the gloves, then you don't have a place on my buffalo sabres. i dont care how many goals you can score. players like that are the guys who wear letters on non playoff teams

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07-25-2012, 02:52 PM
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Crosby fighting isn't stepping out of his character or comfort zone though. Role? Yes. But he's also always been a guy who initiates physical play. The Sedins, Stamkos, Kane, etc. are guys that you won't see fighting.
Really, the guy on the ice who should be taking the bulk of the heat for not responding is Gaustad. He wore an A. That was part of his role. Should Vanek have done more? Maybe, but that's not his job -- Goose was right there, and that was his job, and he didn't do it.
This is getting to be an aside, but Crosby has fought 6 times in his career.

I doubt that makes fighting part of his comfort zone. As much as I hate to admit it, Crosby steps up when his team needs him, period. We haven't had too much of that.

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While Crosby HAS fought in the past, it isnt EXPECTED of him.
That's exactly our point! Nobody expects Vanek to fight; I certainly don't.

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People wouldn't point the finger and say crosby should be removed from the team because he didn't fight sombody. They would say its a good thing he didn't fight. He is more useful to the team scoring goals then injured or in the box. It's not his JOB to fight anybody. While you can say hes the captain he should stick up for his team, then why don't you mention Pomminville? He certainly didn't fight Lucic.
If their team did nothing in a similar situation, then everyone on the team deserves blame, just like on ours.

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But keep pushing your agenda. Whos your next scapegoat after Vanek? Note how many people suddenly hate Vanek now that Roy is gone.
I don't hate Vanek. I don't have any scapegoats. The entire team showed its colors that day, and the point I'm making is that from the toughest guy we have to the most skilled guy we have, none of them did anything to show the team (forget the fans) that they cared.

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07-25-2012, 02:54 PM
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While Crosby HAS fought in the past, it isnt EXPECTED of him. People wouldn't point the finger and say crosby should be removed from the team because he didn't fight sombody. They would say its a good thing he didn't fight. He is more useful to the team scoring goals then injured or in the box. It's not his JOB to fight anybody. While you can say hes the captain he should stick up for his team, then why don't you mention Pomminville? He certainly didn't fight Lucic. But keep pushing your agenda. Whos your next scapegoat after Vanek? Note how many people suddenly hate Vanek now that Roy is gone.
It's not about expectations
It's about character

If that game was Boston vs Pittsburgh
And Fluery got run
And Crosby was the first "on the scene"

There is NO DOUBT in my mind, he would've reacted differently then Vanek. NOT because of expectations, because of character/leadership

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