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Old
07-25-2012, 03:19 PM
  #101
Beerz
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
I completely agree with your analogy

Vanek is the 10 yr old girl among a group of people that includes a boxer.

Hmmm who doesn't belong?

So basically you're saying Vanek is a p.u.s.s.y. which is much different from "not caring".

Gotcha.

We could of avoided all o this if you had stated that in the beginning.

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07-25-2012, 03:20 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Beerz View Post
So basically you're saying Vanek is a p.u.s.s.y. which is much different from "not caring".

Gotcha.

We could of avoided all o this if you had stated that in the beginning.
At which point we all point out that he gets the crap kicked out of him in front of the net on a nightly basis, and insisted on playing through multiple injuries at once for half of last season.

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07-25-2012, 03:22 PM
  #103
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Point at Gaustad then. That was part of his role AND he wore a letter. Again, each player needs to stick within his role, and show them that they can't be intimidated through their own Role. Scorers should have put up more points, run tim thomas out of net! Hitters shouldn't have let a single bruins player touch the puck without getting flattened. Fighters should have fought. I could understand being upset that the team took NO action, but expecting even the skilled players to fight is just stupid. Again, go ask the Pens board if they would expect that of Crosby. Youd get laughed out of there, maybe even get a Trolling infraction. Thats how insanely stupid the idea is.
I disagree. You're talking about roles under the regular circumstances of the game. Eg: Crosby shouldn't fight. Neither should Vanek. Neither should go into a game with their radar on, looking for a fight. In that case, we agree.

The Lucic situation was novel. It's not something that happens each game. The Neil hit was novel. These aren't actions that are expected. Under those circumstances, the players on the ice should act.

Teams don't run Miller like Lucic did a lot. When they do, the players on the ice should take exception to it and fight. If that means Vanek, Pominville, Stafford, etc. get into one or two fights a year, so be it. It's not like asking them to completely change their game.

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07-25-2012, 03:22 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
what a player should or shouldn't do in a unique scenario is an issue of "common sense"

oh

No.... looking at the players on the ice and determining what they are and are not realistically capable of is common sense.

Seeing that incident as a team wide failure instead of using it to push your dumb ass agenda is common sense.

Good day.

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07-25-2012, 03:22 PM
  #105
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Not sure how one can call Vanek a vagina in hockey context. He makes his living in the toughest area on the ice, and plays hurt.

Keep going with the "not caring" tirade... Way more validly invalid than "Vanek is a *****"

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07-25-2012, 03:22 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by HiddenInLight View Post
This is a "Jame won't be happy unless there is sombody for him to rag on even if there really isn't a reason for it in the first place" type thing.
This is "Jame wants a team full of character, a team that doesn't let each other off the hook in incidents like the Lucic" one.

I don't expect Vanek to drop the gloves with anyone.

I expect everyone to stand up in a moment like the Miller/Lucic one.

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07-25-2012, 03:25 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Beerz View Post
No.... looking at the players on the ice and determining what they are and are not realistically capable of is common sense.

Seeing that incident as a team wide failure instead of using it to push your dumb ass agenda is common sense.

Good day.
That's totally fair.

If a hockey player isn't capable of standing up for his teammate in that type of situation... then it is a reflection on him... and IMO he doesn't belong on a team trying to change it's identity

I completely agree that it was a team wide failure.

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07-25-2012, 03:26 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
This is "Jame wants a team full of character, a team that doesn't let each other off the hook in incidents like the Lucic" one.

I don't expect Vanek to drop the gloves with anyone.

I expect everyone to stand up in a moment like the Miller/Lucic one.

Yet you singled out Vanek.

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07-25-2012, 03:26 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
This is "Jame wants a team full of character, a team that doesn't let each other off the hook in incidents like the Lucic" one.

I don't expect Vanek to drop the gloves with anyone.

I expect everyone to stand up in a moment like the Miller/Lucic one.
Then take it up with Captain Pomminville, who's responsibility it is to provide leadership on the team. Your just looking for SOMETHING to support your agenda. Look elsewhere. Yes Vanek should have found SOME way to show Boston that this team wouldn't put up with that kind of hit. No he should NOT have even CONSIDERED fighting Lucic. He would have been lucky to come away with a broken nose, more likely to come away with a concussion.

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07-25-2012, 03:26 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Der Jaeger View Post
I disagree. You're talking about roles under the regular circumstances of the game. Eg: Crosby shouldn't fight. Neither should Vanek. Neither should go into a game with their radar on, looking for a fight. In that case, we agree.

The Lucic situation was novel. It's not something that happens each game. The Neil hit was novel. These aren't actions that are expected. Under those circumstances, the players on the ice should act.

Teams don't run Miller like Lucic did a lot. When they do, the players on the ice should take exception to it and fight. If that means Vanek, Pominville, Stafford, etc. get into one or two fights a year, so be it. It's not like asking them to completely change their game.
exactly... to me, that's REAL common sense in the game of hockey

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07-25-2012, 03:28 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
That's totally fair.

If a hockey player isn't capable of standing up for his teammate in that type of situation... then it is a reflection on him... and IMO he doesn't belong on a team trying to change it's identity

I completely agree that it was a team wide failure.

That's fine. I have no issue with that..... I probably more then you want a fearless team that can stand up for itself. You don't have to convince me of that.

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07-25-2012, 03:28 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Der Jaeger View Post
I disagree. You're talking about roles under the regular circumstances of the game. Eg: Crosby shouldn't fight. Neither should Vanek. Neither should go into a game with their radar on, looking for a fight. In that case, we agree.

The Lucic situation was novel. It's not something that happens each game. The Neil hit was novel. These aren't actions that are expected. Under those circumstances, the players on the ice should act.

Teams don't run Miller like Lucic did a lot. When they do, the players on the ice should take exception to it and fight. If that means Vanek, Pominville, Stafford, etc. get into one or two fights a year, so be it. It's not like asking them to completely change their game.
Yet if Gaustad (or lets call it Scott or McCormick for this year) is on the ice is it unreasonable to expect him to fight instead of Vanek or Pommer?

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07-25-2012, 03:29 PM
  #113
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Then take it up with Captain Pomminville, who's responsibility it is to provide leadership on the team. Your just looking for SOMETHING to support your agenda. Look elsewhere.
get over your stupid agenda line of attack... it's boring.

Quote:
Yes Vanek should have found SOME way to show Boston that this team wouldn't put up with that kind of hit. No he should NOT have even CONSIDERED fighting Lucic. He would have been lucky to come away with a broken nose, more likely to come away with a concussion.
Progress.

So now you admit that Vanek should have done something "in the physical department", but not actually fight...

ok... i'll simply declare victory on that. thanks for playing

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Old
07-25-2012, 03:30 PM
  #114
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In mid to late rounds of a fantasy draft I start eyeing both young players ready to break out and players that are due for a bounce back. For the later from this squad I would set my sights on Stafford, Gerbe, Myers, and Ehrhoff. I have to think that Leino has 30-40 points in him during 12/13 (but I'd have to be in a pretty deep league to consider picking him up).

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07-25-2012, 03:31 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
get over your stupid agenda line of attack... it's boring.



Progress.

So now you admit that Vanek should have done something "in the physical department", but not actually fight...

ok... i'll simply declare victory on that. thanks for playing


Your saying its boring because it's true.



Who said anything about Physical? I didn't. The way vanek should show that this team wont stand for that type of thing is to get back on the ice and score a hat trick. Or at least WIN. Don't put words in my mouth. If I were to let you do that, I'd sound as stupid and irrational as you do.

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07-25-2012, 03:31 PM
  #116
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Yet if Gaustad (or lets call it Scott or McCormick for this year) is on the ice is it unreasonable to expect him to fight instead of Vanek or Pommer?
The problem is... i don't expect Vanek to look over his shoulder, verify whether there is someone better qualified to take the responsibility.

This is about character. There are plenty of "non fighter" star players who don't think twice in that scenario... Crosby is an example. There are MANY others.

Vanek is supposed to see what happens, and react. How he reacts is a reflection on his character.

Nate Gerbe would've gone beserk and got his ass kicked... but he has character.

The outcome of the situation is meaningless to me. The story it tells about the character of the team is what bothers me.

We need to purge as much of that personality as possible from this team

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07-25-2012, 03:32 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
The problem is... i don't expect Vanek to look over his shoulder, verify whether there is someone better qualified to take the responsibility.

This is about character. There are plenty of "non fighter" star players who don't think twice in that scenario... Crosby is an example. There are MANY others.

Vanek is supposed to see what happens, and react. How he reacts is a reflection on his character.

Nate Gerbe would've gone beserk and got his ass kicked... but he has character.

The outcome of the situation is meaningless to me. The story it tells about the character of the team is what bothers me.

We need to purge as much of that personality as possible from this team
Vanek knows which of his team mates are on the ice at any given time. Don't try and say he doesn't because it's not hard to keep track of 4 other guys.

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07-25-2012, 03:34 PM
  #118
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Your saying its boring because it's true.

im saying it's boring because nobody gives a ****... it's the internet. Your going to reply anyways.


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Who said anything about Physical? I didn't. The way vanek should show that this team wont stand for that type of thing is to get back on the ice and score a hat trick. Or at least WIN. Don't put words in my mouth. If I were to let you do that, I'd sound as stupid and irrational as you do
oh... sorry, i take it back then.

How is scoring a hat trick and winning, a response to your goaltender getting run? Isn't that what Vanek should be trying to do anyways?

You don't think that scenario is stupid?

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07-25-2012, 03:36 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
The problem is... i don't expect Vanek to look over his shoulder, verify whether there is someone better qualified to take the responsibility.

This is about character. There are plenty of "non fighter" star players who don't think twice in that scenario... Crosby is an example. There are MANY others.

Vanek is supposed to see what happens, and react. How he reacts is a reflection on his character.

Nate Gerbe would've gone beserk and got his ass kicked... but he has character.

The outcome of the situation is meaningless to me. The story it tells about the character of the team is what bothers me.

We need to purge as much of that personality as possible from this team
So Pomminville doesn't care? Doesn't have character?

Your problem is you think character can only be shown in one way.

You can not honestly sit there and say that playing hurt or playing in front of the net does not show character..

You're being an absolutist and it will be the downfall of your argument.

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07-25-2012, 03:37 PM
  #120
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Vanek knows which of his team mates are on the ice at any given time. Don't try and say he doesn't because it's not hard to keep track of 4 other guys.
ok... you'rer right...

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07-25-2012, 03:38 PM
  #121
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im saying it's boring because nobody gives a ****... it's the internet. Your going to reply anyways.




oh... sorry, i take it back then.

How is scoring a hat trick and winning, a response to your goaltender getting run? Isn't that what Vanek should be trying to do anyways?

You don't think that scenario is stupid?


Because by running the score up against a team that is playing cheap, and running goaltenders, you show that you are above them. Show them that no matter what they do your team is STILL going to put up 6 goals, and run their goalie in a legal way. They can goon it up, but why bother if it doesn't help them win the game? What did the sabres do? They shut down. It showed Boston that the hit on Miller was OK and that they could bully the Sabres out of a game.

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07-25-2012, 03:39 PM
  #122
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So Pomminville doesn't care? Doesn't have character?

Your problem is you think character can only be shown in one way.

You can not honestly sit there and say that playing hurt or playing in front of the net does not show character..

You're being an absolutist and it will be the downfall of your argument.
In that scenario?

Yes... there is only one way to respond.

By the time Pommer and Goose and even Myers got there... there wasn't much that could be done.

Vanek had the opportunity to do something and decided that bumping shoulders was enough

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07-25-2012, 03:40 PM
  #123
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Yet if Gaustad (or lets call it Scott or McCormick for this year) is on the ice is it unreasonable to expect him to fight instead of Vanek or Pommer?
If me, you, and Jame are walking down the street, and we see a woman being assaulted by a guy, is it reasonable for you both to look at me and say "you're in the Army, you go stop it" and pass responsibility to me?

Or should all three of us go kick his ass?

Gaustad AND Vanek AND Myers AND Sekera AND Pominville should have been clawing there way to get at Lucic. They are all equally guilty in my mind.

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07-25-2012, 03:42 PM
  #124
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Because by running the score up against a team that is playing cheap, and running goaltenders, you show that you are above them. Show them that no matter what they do your team is STILL going to put up 6 goals, and run their goalie in a legal way. They can goon it up, but why bother if it doesn't help them win the game? What did the sabres do? They shut down. It showed Boston that the hit on Miller was OK and that they could bully the Sabres out of a game.
I thought we were talking about the NHL...

At what point was "running the score up" on the Stanley Cup Champs a logical response to them annihilating your franchise player?

You can choose to be physical... you can't choose to run up the score.

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07-25-2012, 03:42 PM
  #125
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Vanek knows which of his team mates are on the ice at any given time. Don't try and say he doesn't because it's not hard to keep track of 4 other guys.
I have to agree with Jame on this. If you put Gerbe's heart in Vanek's body you have the best power forward in the NHL. Instead he plays like he's the size of Gerbe and glides through the natural zone most night's, especially when he's back checking. Yes he stands in front of the net but he's usually on his knees and can't make a play except on a PP because they don't have enough guys to cover him. He's not a hard worker, and doesn't play like he has any heart most nights. If he did he would have a "C" on his sweater.

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