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All Purpose Trades/UFA/Roster Discussion Thread (Happy DVM?) Part III

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07-25-2012, 06:12 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Duckstudd269 View Post
According to some guy named Carchidi (don't know how reliable he is), Murray was asking for Schenn and Courts. Lol sweet.
Good to see him aiming high, maybe we can get another Pronger-esque deal out of Philly.

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07-25-2012, 06:17 PM
  #77
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Holmgren also hinted that the Bobby Ryan talks are not dead.

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/inqflyersreport/

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07-25-2012, 06:22 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Duckstudd269 View Post
According to some guy named Carchidi (don't know how reliable he is), Murray was asking for Schenn and Courts. Lol sweet.
I couldn't find it, but that's the exact offer I would've made after Nashville announced they were matching. Not that serious, but to send a message: the price just went up big time.

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07-25-2012, 06:27 PM
  #79
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The pattern of offers always includes soft skill and undersized prospect, useless D and a late first its very rare that you see an opposing team include anyone with size
Philly fans are on a whole new level worse than TO

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07-25-2012, 06:27 PM
  #80
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The problem for Philadelphia is that when Holmgren gets it in his head that he wants a player, he tends to go all out. He seems to like to go big, and shake things up. That's good for Anaheim, because his own stubborn nature might just lead to Anaheim getting what they want. If Murray doesn't fold on what he wants, I'll have greater respect for him, because he absolutely should not move Ryan unless it works to Anaheim's benefit.

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07-25-2012, 06:29 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Dirk316 View Post
The pattern of offers always includes soft skill and undersized prospect, useless D and a late first its very rare that you see an opposing team include anyone with size
Philly fans are on a whole new level worse than TO
Your definition of soft is very different than mine. Read is not soft. And Meszaros is not useless.

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07-25-2012, 06:29 PM
  #82
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one of "Couts" or Schenn and Simmonds or Hartnell + Rinaldo or pick for Ryan and Cogs is the most i would do

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07-25-2012, 06:31 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Dirk316 View Post
one of "Couts" or Schenn and Simmonds or Hartnell + Rinaldo or pick for Ryan and Cogs is the most i would do
Anaheim is not going to get Schenn/Couturier and Simmonds or Hartnell and Rinaldo. That is a ridiculous package for Philadelphia to give up for Ryan. I'm not convinced Getzlaf or Perry would be worth that, let alone Ryan.

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07-25-2012, 06:31 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
Your definition of soft is very different than mine. Read is not soft. And Meszaros is not useless.
Read what i said again "or undersized prospect" and Meszaros is useless to us ive seen you go out of your way to try to be rational on the trade forum for some reason. Who knows why

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07-25-2012, 06:32 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
Anaheim is not going to get Schenn/Couturier and Simmonds or Hartnell and Rinaldo. That is a ridiculous package for Philadelphia to give up for Ryan. I'm not convinced Getzlaf or Perry would be worth that, let alone Ryan.

AKA no point in doing the trade

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07-25-2012, 06:32 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
Your definition of soft is very different than mine. Read is not soft. And Meszaros is not useless.
Trying way too hard to not be bias

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07-25-2012, 06:34 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Dirk316 View Post
Read what i said again "or undersized prospect" and Meszaros is useless to us ive seen you go out of your way to try to be rational on the trade forum for some reason. Who knows why
I get what you're saying, but he'd be an upgrade over some of our guys on D, so I think "useless" is taking it a couple steps too far. He's a good defenseman. Our need just isn't there to value him enough to be an impact asset in a trade for a guy like Ryan.

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07-25-2012, 06:34 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Dirk316 View Post
Read what i said again "or undersized prospect" and Meszaros is useless to us ive seen you go out of your way to try to be rational on the trade forum for some reason. Who knows why
It's only a few posts up. It's hard to miss it...

Quote:
The pattern of offers always includes soft skill and undersized prospect, useless D and a late first
Meszaros wouldn't be useless to us either. He just isn't what Anaheim would want in moving Ryan. He would definitely improve our blue line.

Claims like this is the type of thing that makes Anaheim fans look unreasonable. You're dismissing a pretty decent package as completely worthless, when it's not at all. It just isn't what Anaheim would want for Ryan.

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07-25-2012, 06:35 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
Your definition of soft is very different than mine. Read is not soft. And Meszaros is not useless.
Meszaros isn't useless, but he might be the worst fit on that entire team to come back here. No need for a defenseman, especially no need for an inconsistent offensive defenseman, and no way the Ducks pay him nearly $10 million over 2 years. Like I said on the Flyers board, if Meszaros was on waivers, I highly doubt the Ducks would put a claim in.

And, about Homer going all out, yes he does. With Weber he had the offer sheet option, and like an idiot he took it. Doesn't have that option with Ryan, and there probably is sort of timeframe he would have to get a deal done in.

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07-25-2012, 06:37 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
It's only a few posts up. It's hard to miss it...



Meszaros wouldn't be useless to us either. He just isn't what Anaheim would want in moving Ryan. He would definitely improve our blue line.

Claims like this is the type of thing that makes Anaheim fans look unreasonable. You're dismissing a pretty decent package as completely worthless, when it's not at all. It just isn't what Anaheim would want for Ryan.

Who would he replace? You will say Allen but that makes us super soft on the back again so Lydman? Not really any improvement

The package is nothing decent you must be joking, its in fact offensive

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07-25-2012, 06:37 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Dirk316 View Post
AKA no point in doing the trade
Ryan isn't worth that much, Dirk. If Anaheim trades for Couturier, or Schenn, they aren't going to get much more on top of that. You're seriously overvaluing Ryan if you think he commands Couturier/Schenn and a player like Hartnell/Simmonds.

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07-25-2012, 06:38 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Dirk316 View Post
Who would he replace? You will say Allen but that makes us super soft on the back again so Lydman? Not really any improvement

The package is nothing decent you must be joking, its in fact offensive
There you go again with the soft crap again.

If you think that package is offensive, you don't know how to value players properly.

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07-25-2012, 06:39 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
Anaheim is not going to get Schenn/Couturier and Simmonds or Hartnell and Rinaldo. That is a ridiculous package for Philadelphia to give up for Ryan. I'm not convinced Getzlaf or Perry would be worth that, let alone Ryan.
How is that ridiculous? That's essentially what Mike Richards brought back last year. Obviously Getzlaf isn't signed, but that is in no way ridiculous. That's just you drinking the kool-aid on Schenn/Couturier.

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07-25-2012, 06:41 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
Meszaros isn't useless, but he might be the worst fit on that entire team to come back here. No need for a defenseman, especially no need for an inconsistent offensive defenseman, and no way the Ducks pay him nearly $10 million over 2 years. Like I said on the Flyers board, if Meszaros was on waivers, I highly doubt the Ducks would put a claim in.

And, about Homer going all out, yes he does. With Weber he had the offer sheet option, and like an idiot he took it. Doesn't have that option with Ryan, and there probably is sort of timeframe he would have to get a deal done in.
Hey, I've already said Meszaros doesn't fit with Anaheim's needs. They clearly aren't looking for a defenseman right now, and that package doesn't work for Anaheim... but it's a pretty decent package. There is absolutely decent value there. The reason Murray says no(and he should) is that it just doesn't address our immediate needs.

But anyone saying that there isn't value in that package is talking out of the wrong orifice.

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07-25-2012, 06:42 PM
  #95
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Meszaros has been playing no. 4/5 D for a while now, add back surgery on top of that and he soon becomes pretty useless from our perspective.

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07-25-2012, 06:44 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
Hey, I've already said Meszaros doesn't fit with Anaheim's needs. They clearly aren't looking for a defenseman right now, and that package doesn't work for Anaheim... but it's a pretty decent package. There is absolutely decent value there. The reason Murray says no(and he should) is that it just doesn't address our immediate needs.

But anyone saying that there isn't value in that package is talking out of the wrong orifice.
I agree completely. There's a bit of value, just not for us. I also have a pretty low opinion of Meszaros in general, so I honestly wouldn't want him included in any package whatsoever.

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07-25-2012, 06:44 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
How is that ridiculous? That's essentially what Mike Richards brought back last year. Obviously Getzlaf isn't signed, but that is in no way ridiculous. That's just you drinking the kool-aid on Schenn/Couturier.
Well, that was a year ago. Simmonds certainly has improved his value to his organisation a lot since then. Hartnell is on another level entirely, and given his chemistry with Giroux, he would not be involved anyway, even if we were to ignore his NTC. But I agree that Hartnell+Couturier/Schenn would be insta-overpayment from the Flyers. Couturier also has done more than enough in his one year since being drafted to up his value significantly from being just that 9th overall pick back then.

I don't think Schenn+Simmonds would be completely outrageous, but going from that formula, I think it's the only remotely fair possibility.

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07-25-2012, 06:45 PM
  #98
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How is that ridiculous? That's essentially what Mike Richards brought back last year. Obviously Getzlaf isn't signed, but that is in no way ridiculous. That's just you drinking the kool-aid on Schenn/Couturier.
Schenn was an unproven prospect, and Simmonds is now another year into his career. Values change, and when players step into the NHL and prove themselves, the way Schenn did, they change pretty quickly. Both of those players are worth more than they were prior to the trade.

Furthermore, both of those players are key players in Philadelphia now, where that wasn't the case in Los Angeles. Would you give up two key roster players for Bobby Ryan? I sure wouldn't.

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07-25-2012, 06:49 PM
  #99
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Well, that was a year ago. Simmonds certainly has improved his value to his organisation a lot since then. Hartnell is on another level entirely, and given his chemistry with Giroux, he would not be involved anyway, even if we were to ignore his NTC. But I agree that Hartnell+Couturier/Schenn would be insta-overpayment from the Flyers. Couturier also has done more than enough in his one year since being drafted to up his value significantly from being just that 9th overall pick back then.

I don't think Schenn+Simmonds would be outrageous, but going from that formula, I think it's the only remotely fair possibility.
No, the outrageous part isn't strictly Schenn and Simmonds. That's a very tough swallow for Philadelphia, and I wouldn't do it, but the outrageous part is including Hartnell, and acting like him and Simmonds are the same. Couturier and Schenn might be interchangable for Philadelphia, but I doubt it. Hartnell and Simmonds are absolutely not.

Even selling lower on Schenn(as a prospect vs. an nhl player), the way they did, that trade by the Kings for Richard was a pretty hefty package.

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07-25-2012, 06:55 PM
  #100
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Schenn was an unproven prospect, and Simmonds is now another year into his career. Values change, and when players step into the NHL and prove themselves, the way Schenn did, they change pretty quickly. Both of those players are worth more than they were prior to the trade.

Furthermore, both of those players are key players in Philadelphia now, where that wasn't the case in Los Angeles. Would you give up two key roster players for Bobby Ryan? I sure wouldn't.
I'm not saying it was fair value(LA hosed Philly in that deal, anyway), but calling it ridiculous is a huge overstatement. It's also not right to say "Schenn was an unproven prospect", because he still is pretty unproven. He played to a 30 point pace and was sent down to the minors at one point. He had a decent playoff, but almost all of his value is predicated on his potential. He has proven next to nothing at this point. Simmonds, yeah, he stepped it up, but he also damn near doubled his career high in goals. I don't think you'll see him score that much in the future, that was just a great year helped out by the Flyers great PP.

And I wouldn't call neither Schenn nor Simmonds "key". Maybe Simmonds, definitely not Schenn, but still probably neither.

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