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All Purpose Trades/UFA/Roster Discussion Thread (Happy DVM?) Part III

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Old
07-25-2012, 07:56 PM
  #101
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Oh, were you arguing about Getzlaf/Perry part? That was a bit of an exaggeration on my part, obviously. It was more to point out that it makes no sense from Philadelphia's perspective, to give that much up for Bobby Ryan. Sure, it would benefit Anaheim greatly, but what's the appeal to Philly?

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07-25-2012, 07:58 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
No, the outrageous part isn't strictly Schenn and Simmonds. That's a very tough swallow for Philadelphia, and I wouldn't do it, but the outrageous part is including Hartnell, and acting like him and Simmonds are the same. Couturier and Schenn might be interchangable for Philadelphia, but I doubt it. Hartnell and Simmonds are absolutely not.

Even selling lower on Schenn(as a prospect vs. an nhl player), the way they did, that trade by the Kings for Richard was a pretty hefty package.
I disagree with the last line, they absolutely hosed them. Schenn will probably never be a Mike Richards and Simmonds is a pretty decent second liner, but he's replaceable. Whenever you get the best player in the deal, you're probably winning at some level, and anytime you trade two lesser forwards for a high-end one, yeah, I'd say you're winning big time.

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07-25-2012, 08:02 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
I'm not saying it was fair value(LA hosed Philly in that deal, anyway), but calling it ridiculous is a huge overstatement. It's also not right to say "Schenn was an unproven prospect", because he still is pretty unproven. He played to a 30 point pace and was sent down to the minors at one point. He had a decent playoff, but almost all of his value is predicated on his potential. He has proven next to nothing at this point. Simmonds, yeah, he stepped it up, but he also damn near doubled his career high in goals. I don't think you'll see him score that much in the future, that was just a great year helped out by the Flyers great PP.

And I wouldn't call neither Schenn nor Simmonds "key". Maybe Simmonds, definitely not Schenn, but still probably neither.
He's a young and inexperienced player, not an unproven prospect. The difference between Schenn then, and Schenn now, is that he's made it clear he is going to be a good NHL player. It's like the difference between Vatanen now vs. what he'll be 1 or 2 years from now. If he steps into the NHL and shows that his size won't be an issue, and that he can be a great NHL player, you're going to be willing to wait for him to reach that point. Schenn has done that. You can see tangible results of his skill at the NHL level. It's a pretty big difference, in my opinion.

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07-25-2012, 08:03 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
Oh, were you arguing about Getzlaf/Perry part? That was a bit of an exaggeration on my part, obviously. It was more to point out that it makes no sense from Philadelphia's perspective, to give that much up for Bobby Ryan. Sure, it would benefit Anaheim greatly, but what's the appeal to Philly?
Mainly the "ridiculous" part. I don't think Philly does it, but I definitely think they ponder on it. It certainly isn't a ridiculous proposal, it's a win value-wise but there's a sense to it. That's also assuming Hartnell isn't in it, as he has a NTC/NMC. Even if he is, not sure it's a "ridiculous" proposal. Most Leaf proposals are ridiculous, this is just a little uneven.

To spitball on the idea, perhaps they look at Schenn+Simmonds+Rinaldo for Ryan+Holland. Holland replaces Couts(Couts bumps up) on the third line, and he's pretty unneeded her anyway. Thought about putting Couts in there instead, but despite what I said, Schenn's probably the better target. Flyers clearly value him less, but to me they're pretty close, so it's a value play from Anaheim's end.

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07-25-2012, 08:06 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
I disagree with the last line, they absolutely hosed them. Schenn will probably never be a Mike Richards and Simmonds is a pretty decent second liner, but he's replaceable. Whenever you get the best player in the deal, you're probably winning at some level, and anytime you trade two lesser forwards for a high-end one, yeah, I'd say you're winning big time.
Then I guess we disagree on that count. I don't really buy into the concept of winning or losing a trade, most of the time anyway. In my opinion, Philadelphia is ahead of where they were, and that trade was a big part of it. The issues they have on their team are in a completely different area, namely goaltending and their blue line.

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07-25-2012, 08:08 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
He's a young and inexperienced player, not an unproven prospect. The difference between Schenn then, and Schenn now, is that he's made it clear he is going to be a good NHL player. It's like the difference between Vatanen now vs. what he'll be 1 or 2 years from now. If he steps into the NHL and shows that his size won't be an issue, and that he can be a great NHL player, you're going to be willing to wait for him to reach that point. Schenn has done that. You can see tangible results of his skill at the NHL level. It's a pretty big difference, in my opinion.
Obviously not completely unproven, but you can almost argue his value was higher a year ago. Last year he was the best junior player in the world, dominated the WJCs, just outstanding in every regard. Then he came in this year and had definite struggles, and aside from a good playoff, showed a little doubt about his very bright future. If Peter Holland comes in next year and puts up 30 points, despite them being close in age, I don't think too many on here would be impressed.

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07-25-2012, 08:12 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
Then I guess we disagree on that count. I don't really buy into the concept of winning or losing a trade, most of the time anyway. In my opinion, Philadelphia is ahead of where they were, and that trade was a big part of it. The issues they have on their team are in a completely different area, namely goaltending and their blue line.
I don't either, and I think they were happy with what they could get considering the circumstances. And I thought they took a step back, with the standings agreeing with me. They should improve going forward, but I think if the circumstances were different, they'd take the Mike Richards trade back in a heartbeat.

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07-25-2012, 08:22 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
Mainly the "ridiculous" part. I don't think Philly does it, but I definitely think they ponder on it. It certainly isn't a ridiculous proposal, it's a win value-wise but there's a sense to it. That's also assuming Hartnell isn't in it, as he has a NTC/NMC. Even if he is, not sure it's a "ridiculous" proposal. Most Leaf proposals are ridiculous, this is just a little uneven.

To spitball on the idea, perhaps they look at Schenn+Simmonds+Rinaldo for Ryan+Holland. Holland replaces Couts(Couts bumps up) on the third line, and he's pretty unneeded her anyway. Thought about putting Couts in there instead, but despite what I said, Schenn's probably the better target. Flyers clearly value him less, but to me they're pretty close, so it's a value play from Anaheim's end.
Ryan + Holland isn't Ryan + Cogliano. Cogliano is a throw-in by Dirk that does very little for the value Anaheim is sending, while Holland is a high quality prospect nearly ready to crack his way into the NHL.

I stand by my opinion that asking for Schenn/Couturier + Simmonds/Hartnell + Rinaldo is just ripping off Philly, because first of all the value can vary greatly depending on which one you pick, and second of all, I don't see why Philadelphia does it. Centers are worth a premium in the NHL, and unlike the Richards trade, a quality center(Cogliano doesn't count) isn't going the other way.

If Philly felt Ryan was worth that much, why in the world wouldn't they be willing to move one of Couturier or Schenn for him?

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07-25-2012, 08:30 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
Ryan + Holland isn't Ryan + Cogliano. Cogliano is a throw-in by Dirk that does very little for the value Anaheim is sending, while Holland is a high quality prospect nearly ready to crack his way into the NHL.

I stand by my opinion that asking for Schenn/Couturier + Simmonds/Hartnell + Rinaldo is just ripping off Philly, because first of all the value can vary greatly depending on which one you pick, and second of all, I don't see why Philadelphia does it. Centers are worth a premium in the NHL, and unlike the Richards trade, a quality center(Cogliano doesn't count) isn't going the other way.

If Philly felt Ryan was worth that much, why in the world wouldn't they be willing to move one of Couturier or Schenn for him?
I agree, Philly doesn't do the original deal, but I don't think it's "ridiculous". That was my main issue, calling it a ridiculous offer, when it's simply lopsided. To me, anyway, ridiculous implies that it's basically an insult, like asking for both Couts and Schenn. At the same time, it doesn't hurt to make that offer either, that's part of negotiations.

As for the last part, again, it's negotiations, and Homer can be pretty weird when it comes to them. He apparently didn't want to give up Couts for Weber either, which is ridiculous, but probably would've in the end if he didn't think he could get him for just the four 1sts. With Ryan, they might try and get the perfect deal at first, but eventually, they have to come to that level. IMO they will, and it'll be up to Murray to pull the trigger or not.

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07-25-2012, 08:33 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
I don't either, and I think they were happy with what they could get considering the circumstances. And I thought they took a step back, with the standings agreeing with me. They should improve going forward, but I think if the circumstances were different, they'd take the Mike Richards trade back in a heartbeat.
I don't. Richards was a bit of a problem in Philly, and I don't think they are missing him. On top of that, I think Anaheim is a good example of why trading Richards was the right move. They got two talented players for him, to spread the wealth, which, as we've seen in Anaheim, can be important. They were only three points behind where they were the previous season. They were an offensive powerhouse, and that with Schenn and Couturier taking their first steps. Their struggles were between the pipes and in the defensive zone.

Honestly, I don't even understand why Holmgren gives a crap about Ryan. Scoring goals is not a problem for that team. It shouldn't be a problem for that team for a while. What they need to do is improve their blue line, and keep Bryzgalov's confidence up.

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07-25-2012, 08:34 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
I'm not saying it was fair value(LA hosed Philly in that deal, anyway), but calling it ridiculous is a huge overstatement..
LA definitely didn't hose them. The Flyers got Simmonds who outproduced Richards by 10 goals and 5 points last year by the way and Schenn who projects to be at worst a 2nd line centre and has already shown flashes of brilliance.

The Flyers definitely had a better offense last season with Simmonds/Schenn than they would have with Richards who seems to have already peaked offensively and due to his size and style of play will probably start declining earlier than most players.

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07-25-2012, 08:40 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
I agree, Philly doesn't do the original deal, but I don't think it's "ridiculous". That was my main issue, calling it a ridiculous offer, when it's simply lopsided. To me, anyway, ridiculous implies that it's basically an insult, like asking for both Couts and Schenn. At the same time, it doesn't hurt to make that offer either, that's part of negotiations.

As for the last part, again, it's negotiations, and Homer can be pretty weird when it comes to them. He apparently didn't want to give up Couts for Weber either, which is ridiculous, but probably would've in the end if he didn't think he could get him for just the four 1sts. With Ryan, they might try and get the perfect deal at first, but eventually, they have to come to that level. IMO they will, and it'll be up to Murray to pull the trigger or not.
Alright, fair enough. I can respect that.

I don't disagree with you here. Though, I'm not entirely sure Holmgren's reluctance to give up Couturier or Schenn for Weber wasn't because he didn't think he could bully them with an offer sheet. Obviously, I can't prove that, but I think he might have been more willing to part with one of them if the offer sheet hadn't been an option. If he feels like the offer sheet was an ace up his sleeve, there is no need for him to put Couturier on the table.

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07-25-2012, 09:00 PM
  #113
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Alright, fair enough. I can respect that.

I don't disagree with you here. Though, I'm not entirely sure Holmgren's reluctance to give up Couturier or Schenn for Weber wasn't because he didn't think he could bully them with an offer sheet. Obviously, I can't prove that, but I think he might have been more willing to part with one of them if the offer sheet hadn't been an option. If he feels like the offer sheet was an ace up his sleeve, there is no need for him to put Couturier on the table.
I fully agree with that last part. He had the option, and if Nashville didn't want to take his deal, that was his trump card, not caving to their trade demands. And he screwed himself because of it.

With Ryan, obviously, there isn't a trump card, unlike what Philly fans suggest(waiting till he's UFA, not a realistic option). Guess it just depends on who plays the game of chicken better.

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07-26-2012, 12:46 AM
  #114
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I'm an idiot. I thought i was posting in here and was on the trade board. Anyways, wasn't sure if i should dig up an avatar thread or post it here.

Quote:
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I'm totally fine with keeping Ryan. No ryan for you
This gave me an idea for avatars. Picture of the soup nazi. The top of the pic is one of the crappy proposals for Ryan, and at the bottom "No Ryan for you!"

Exit Dose (Sevenfold right?) Hook me up buddy. Pleeeease.

Ill see if i can figure out how to make one myself, it seems pretty easy but im lazy.

Although, we will look pretty dumb when barstool trades Bobby to the Leafs.

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07-26-2012, 12:54 AM
  #115
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According to some guy named Carchidi (don't know how reliable he is), Murray was asking for Schenn and Courts. Lol sweet.
That's definitely way too much. I'm not sure I believe it because LeBrun said at the draft that Murray wanted Schenn as the main piece - along with another piece as well, but it wasn't Couturier iirc.

edit: just too much, not way too much. These guys haven't proven to be anything more than 3rd liners at this point.


Last edited by Gibson Les Palms: 07-26-2012 at 03:01 AM.
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07-26-2012, 01:51 AM
  #116
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Exit Dose (Sevenfold right?) Hook me up buddy. Pleeeease.
Wrong guy. I've never posted under another name. DuckTech made the last round of avs, could it be him?

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07-26-2012, 01:55 AM
  #117
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Wrong guy. I've never posted under another name. DuckTech made the last round of avs, could it be him?
Oh sorry.

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07-26-2012, 01:56 AM
  #118
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Unholy is Sevenfold

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07-26-2012, 02:39 AM
  #119
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Do you guys/girls really think the Ducks have a team that can be a contender next year?

Thoughts please....
I say it this way:

- I expect Cam and Luca making the next step
- I think Kyle will put up 20+ goals while Bonino will make 40+ (Bobby-Bonino-Kyle line)
- We will have top 5 goalie tandem in the league (Fasth will surprise a lof of people)
- Getzlaf and Perry will bounce back
- Bruce will light the fire on this team
- I think we will be stable defensivly next year

all of those will lead us to the playoffs - we will see how far we will go!

I'm really liking the team how it looks like and I'm thrilled to see see our prospects breaking in. We have a great pool and they will show it sooner than later.

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07-26-2012, 02:47 AM
  #120
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Ryan+Fowler for Schenn brothers and picks/prospects, or Ryan+Beauchemin for Couturier++. I don't know quite how they managed it, but Flyers fans have succesfuly topped Leafs fans.

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07-26-2012, 03:29 AM
  #121
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The Couturier+ for Ryan and Fowler is just downright insulting.

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07-26-2012, 03:35 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Zapp Brannigan View Post
Ryan+Fowler for Schenn brothers and picks/prospects, or Ryan+Beauchemin for Couturier++. I don't know quite how they managed it, but Flyers fans have succesfuly topped Leafs fans.
No kidding. Did everyone forget that Couturier is just a promising rookie? If he's unavailable, then he's unavailable. We're not going to overpay to change their minds.

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07-26-2012, 10:24 AM
  #123
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Voracek has signed with Flyers, so he can't be traded.

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07-26-2012, 10:38 AM
  #124
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Voracek has signed with Flyers, so he can't be traded.
Why can't he be traded?

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07-26-2012, 10:40 AM
  #125
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Why can't he be traded?
Perhaps I got biased by the Weber thing, but isn't the rules that RFA's can't be traded for 1 year? Or maybe this is just for the ones that gets offer sheet (which are matched).

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