“@BroadStBull: Homer says he doesn't see a hole on G's RW, and he envisions Voracek playing on that line as RW.#Flyers”
This is what I and many others have said for a long time. If the defense and goaltending are even decent the Flyers have zero need for Ryan given that with the current line-up the Flyers are still a top 10 offense.
I still think Holmgren is going to do something. He usually plays his hand close to the vest. Hes been saying all summer he likes the team as constructed and he has every right to say it. That doesnt mean he isnt going to go out and try and make the team better. Which I still think He will.
I still think Holmgren is going to do something. He usually plays his hand close to the vest. Hes been saying all summer he likes the team as constructed and he has every right to say it. That doesnt mean he isnt going to go out and try and make the team better. Which I still think He will.
Agree. Holmgren says he likes the team every summer before he goes and shakes it up.
Who? Doughty? I'm still not convinced he's playing at the level of a #1. And after him, Greene, Scuderi, Drewiske, Martinez, Voynov, and Mitchell....Nothing to really write home about. Solid defensive guys who fit the system. Now we, the Flyers, have solid defensive guys...in an offensive system. That's the biggest hurdle.
Doughty certainly played like a number 1 through the playoffs on their way to a Cup. He was a rock for that team. There's a reason people were considering him as a dark horse candidate for Conn Smythe.
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Agree. Holmgren says he likes the team every summer before he goes and shakes it up.
As well he should.
There's nothing to be gained from stating "Boy, this defense is pretty rough, eh?". I think he says it accurately.... if the games started tomorrow, we'd be ok, but like most teams, there's room to improve.
You can say what you will, but Holmgren is a man possessed. He takes any risk he sees as having the potential to improve the team. He misses, but so far (imo), he's hit more than he's missed. He'll be forever tied to Bryzgalov, but I suspect that he probably had less to do with those moves than most others.
You realize that you just specifically stated that it has nothing to do with how good the package is but that Anaheim has specific needs that have to fill should a package be sent their way...right?
No, I said it has nothing to do with how you value the package. There's a difference. There are two sides to every trade, and both teams are looking to get what they want.
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News flash: That has nothing to do with what I said. Anaheim fans were mocking the package as if it had little to no value. Clearly it has significant value regardless of Anaheim's needs should Ryan be moved.
Right, because the 1 or 2 fans who mocked the package speaks for the entire fanbase, right? What did the rest say? Probably that the package just doesn't work for Anaheim.
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Just because we don't have the pieces you need despite the inherent value of the package offered, doesn't mean you can ask for better pieces from a different position as substitutes. "Hi, yeah. We need a center, not a wing. So I know Read is probably fair value, but we're going to need Giroux. Cool?" ... "Oh not Giroux? Then those pieces clearly suck and are nowhere near enough value!"
Now you're delving into hyperbole, and simple absurdity. The majority of fans have been very consistent with their requests, that being B. Schenn or Couturier. The majority of them have also said that, if Anaheim can't get one of those players, the Ducks won't be trading Ryan to Philly unless Murray changes his tune.
We're not making spare change here, Chris. Anaheim isn't looking to trade Ryan just because you put together a package that, on paper, might add up to Ryan's perceived value. That's the part that some Philly fans don't seem to understand. Anaheim has a specific goal in mind if they are going to move Ryan. A package can have the right value and not be the right one for Anaheim. Just because a few obnoxious posters say "That's crap." doesn't mean the majority feels that way. It can be a good package, and not be one Anaheim would be interested in.
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Also keep in mind that I think Read could very easily have a future as a #2 center on another team. He plays very well in the middle from what I've seen of him.
That may be the case, but given that he's 26 years old and has only played a single NHL season so far, it shouldn't be that difficult to see why Anaheim, and their fans, might hesitate to want him as the single most important piece coming back. If he doesn't hit your expectations, Anaheim could be worse off than they were when they had Ryan.
We're not making change here, Chris. Anaheim isn't looking to trade Ryan just because you put together a package that, on paper, might add up to Ryan's perceived value.
That's well and good.
I was mocking those mocking the package. There is clearly a difference.
I was mocking those mocking the package. There is clearly a difference.
I think there's a few reasons Ducks fans mock that package. For one, it doesn't include the one thing the Ducks want back, despite Philly having two guys who are exactly that. It's understandable for Ducks fans to mock such a package. This isn't a team like the Leafs, who don't have the center depth to make a perfect offer, where it's understandable that they're just making the best offer they can(well, some of the time, anyway). But with Philly, I think it just floors Ducks fans that they have not one, but two pieces the Ducks would certainly covet, yet there's zero attempt to even try and include them in any proposals. It would be like, if the Flyers desperately needed a top line winger(not saying they do, this is hypothetical), and wanted to trade a package headlined by Schenn for one, and Ducks fans offered Peter Holland, Toni Lydman and a first for just Schenn.
Second is the inclusion of Meszaros, despite the Ducks having no room for him, no need for a defenseman of his type even if they did, and would definitely have issue paying him that much for the next couple years. If Meszaros was on waivers, I highly doubt the Ducks would put a claim in for him. He's just a terrible fit all around. His inclusion in any proposal is even more baffling than leaving out one of the pieces the Ducks actually want. We know why he's always included, but that doesn't mean the Ducks have to like it.
Basically, it's a proposal that not only leaves out one of the pieces the Ducks would actually want in return for Ryan, but also includes a player they probably want nothing to do with. That's why it gets mocked, but mainly the first one.
I think there's a few reasons Ducks fans mock that package. For one, it doesn't include the one thing the Ducks want back, despite Philly having two guys who are exactly that. It's understandable for Ducks fans to mock such a package. This isn't a team like the Leafs, who don't have the center depth to make a perfect offer, where it's understandable that they're just making the best offer they can(well, some of the time, anyway). But with Philly, I think it just floors Ducks fans that they have not one, but two pieces the Ducks would certainly covet, yet there's zero attempt to even try and include them in any proposals. It would be like, if the Flyers desperately needed a top line winger(not saying they do, this is hypothetical), and wanted to trade a package headlined by Schenn for one, and Ducks fans offered Peter Holland, Toni Lydman and a first for just Schenn.
I understand your frustration, but honestly, regardless of how anyone else feels about the situation, Holmgren is not trading either Couturier or BSchenn; Couturier because he's...excuse my French...****ing Couturier for god's sake (and no people here are not overrating his potential) and BSchenn is now trapped here after the Flyers traded the former would-be franchise savior, James vanRiemsdyk, for his brother Luke.
While it would be feasible to trade BSchenn in a package for Ryan before JVR was shipped off for his brother, that is now pretty much an impossibility.
It's pointless to blame the Flyers fans offering the package that doesn't fit your needs despite its value when, for all intents and purposes, Couturier and BSchenn are non-existent entities to you.
So, no, we really don't have the assets you need. They might as well not exist. What you're left with is the cars we have on the lot. Though they're good cars, you may need a pickup truck. That's fine and understandable.
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf
Second is the inclusion of Meszaros, despite the Ducks having no room for him, no need for a defenseman of his type even if they did, and would definitely have issue paying him that much for the next couple years. If Meszaros was on waivers, I highly doubt the Ducks would put a claim in for him. He's just a terrible fit all around. His inclusion in any proposal is even more baffling than leaving out one of the pieces the Ducks actually want. We know why he's always included, but that doesn't mean the Ducks have to like it.
That's more than fine. Most of that was Flyers fans expecting Weber to be here in which case Meszaros was not really necessary for a 6th defenseman. Right now though, he's very necessary so I have far less interest in moving him.
He also emphasized the Flyers' fans willingness to overpay to get Ryan. Let's be serious for a second; Voracek + Meszaros + 1st/Laughton is a pretty spectacular overpayment to the tune of a Meszaros.
Voracek + 1st/Laughton + C level asset is more realistic.
A level + B level + C level
Unfortunately though we're back to the part where it doesn't fill your needs unless that A level asset is a center we don't currently have on the market.
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf
Basically, it's a proposal that not only leaves out one of the pieces the Ducks would actually want in return for Ryan, but also includes a player they probably want nothing to do with. That's why it gets mocked, but mainly the first one.
You can want Couturier and BSchenn all you want, but they don't exist for you...or anyone for that matter.
I don't think that non-Flyer fans realize that Sean's performance this year, at times, was quietly some of the most beautiful shutdown hockey I've ever seen.
If he can replicate that and improve upon it-- Mother Of God.
If that were going to happen, it would've been for Weber. Couturier and the Schenns are here to stay.
I'd package Schenn + Schenn + 1st/Laughton + 1st + ??? for a package similar to something along the lines of Ryan + Fowler or Kane + Enstrom.
Short of that? No, I don't see the Schenns moving.
Couturier though is unavailable. Reminds me a lot of when people around the NHL got their first glimpse of Giroux and were like, "****! We gotta con those chumps on the Flyers' board for this kid before they realize just what they've found."
Then of course we said, "Go away." and thus started the "Giroux Is Overrated" wars on HF.
I don't think that non-Flyer fans realize that Sean's performance this year, at times, was quietly some of the most beautiful shutdown hockey I've ever seen.
If he can replicate that and improve upon it-- Mother Of God.
Yeah. And he did that at times with Rinaldo/Shelley/Sestito. While showing flashes of offensive talent.
Yeah. And he did that at times with Rinaldo/Shelley/Sestito. While showing flashes of offensive talent.
The other thing that people outside Philadelphia don't realize that he scored 27 points... in 14 minutes per game ice time.... with 2:41 of that time being PK time and only 26 seconds a game of PP time.
Let's assume 0 improvement, but 17 minutes a game and 1.5 minutes per game power play time. None of those are remotely high totals. Couturier is probably in the area of 40-45 points right there. Add some weight. Add the normal improvement. Add a little less requirement that he play on the PK.... 50+ points this season are definitely possible.
The other thing that people outside Philadelphia don't realize that he scored 27 points... in 14 minutes per game ice time.... with 2:41 of that time being PK time and only 26 seconds a game of PP time.
Let's assume 0 improvement, but 17 minutes a game and 1.5 minutes per game power play time. None of those are remotely high totals. Couturier is probably in the area of 40-45 points right there. Add some weight. Add the normal improvement. Add a little less requirement that he play on the PK.... 50+ points this season are definitely possible.
And give him linemates who aren't meatweights on skates.
And give him linemates who aren't meatweights on skates.
Exactly why I think that Arnott or Moore centering the 4th line makes a lot more sense. Reduce PK time, keep Couturier on a more potent 3rd line, win some faceoffs in key defensive zone situations.
Adding Doan and Moore makes us a potentially devastating team to play. Imagine:
FORWARDS
Scott Hartnell ($4.200m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m) / Jakub Voracek ($4.250m)
Shane Doan ($5.250m) / Danny Briere ($6.500m) / Brayden Schenn ($3.110m)
Wayne Simmonds ($1.750m) / Sean Couturier ($1.375m) / Matt Read ($0.900m)
Ruslan Fedotenko ($1.750m) / Dominic Moore ($1.600m) / Maxime Talbot ($1.750m)
Eric Wellwood ($0.580m) / Zac Rinaldo ($0.544m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Braydon Coburn ($4.500m) / Nicklas Grossmann ($3.500m)
Kimmo Timonen ($6.333m) / Luke Schenn ($3.600m)
Andrej Meszaros ($4.000m) / Erik Gustafsson ($0.900m)
Andreas Lilja ($0.738m) / Bruno Gervais ($0.825m)
GOALTENDERS
Ilya Bryzgalov ($5.667m)
Michael Leighton ($0.900m)
BUYOUTS
Oskars Bartulis ($0.100m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $70,200,000; CAP PAYROLL: $68,371,944; BONUSES: $2,705,000
CAP SPACE (24-man roster): $1,828,056
Yeah. And he did that at times with Rinaldo/Shelley/Sestito. While showing flashes of offensive talent.
It's hard not turning into an offensive juggernaut playing besides Shelley and his offensive skills. Hell, I may even turn into a 10g-3a player beside him.
The other thing that people outside Philadelphia don't realize that he scored 27 points... in 14 minutes per game ice time.... with 2:41 of that time being PK time and only 26 seconds a game of PP time.
Let's assume 0 improvement, but 17 minutes a game and 1.5 minutes per game power play time. None of those are remotely high totals. Couturier is probably in the area of 40-45 points right there. Add some weight. Add the normal improvement. Add a little less requirement that he play on the PK.... 50+ points this season are definitely possible.
The weight part really excites me. If Sean manages (And likely will) to add some nice muscle mass this Summer, look out.
He gets compared to Jordan Staal enough, but imagine if he was built like him...
i know its from ek but he usually is good with flyers info
"The Flyers are going to not let this go. If I was asked to name the one player I have heard the team has wanted since the day he was drafted it would be Bobby Ryan. And with the departures of Jagr and JvR the stage is set to make a deal. The Ducks want a second line center for Ryan, but I keep hearing a rumor that the Flyers made offers considered "close enough to get this done" as recently as a few days prior to Shea Weber offer sheet. I would say the chances Bobby Ryan is moved to Philly grows by the day right now. "
I understand your frustration, but honestly, regardless of how anyone else feels about the situation, Holmgren is not trading either Couturier or BSchenn;
Hey Chris, remember what you said when there were rumors of Flyers trading for Pronger? Didn't you say something like there's no chance of Flyers trading Sbisa?
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer
It's pointless to blame the Flyers fans offering the package that doesn't fit your needs despite its value when, for all intents and purposes, Couturier and BSchenn are non-existent entities to you.
You sound like you're the GM of the Flyers the way you keep presenting these "facts".
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer
He also emphasized the Flyers' fans willingness to overpay to get Ryan. Let's be serious for a second; Voracek + Meszaros + 1st/Laughton is a pretty spectacular overpayment to the tune of a Meszaros.
I'm willing to be that most non-Flyers wouldn't call that a "spectacular overpayment", in fact I don't think many think that's even near fair value for Ryan. Meszaros has a bad contract, that 1st would be in 20th-30th range and while Voracek has some potential, he really hasn't done anything special yet.
I'd be horrified if Ducks took that deal, regardless of team needs.
Couturier though is unavailable. Reminds me a lot of when people around the NHL got their first glimpse of Giroux and were like, "****! We gotta con those chumps on the Flyers' board for this kid before they realize just what they've found."
Then of course we said, "Go away." and thus started the "Giroux Is Overrated" wars on HF.
Beautiful post here. Did the "Giroux is overrated" debate really exist here?
More evidence that 95% of the posters here live in a fantasty GM world. LOL.
Couturier and Schenn are not available, end of story. I would even venture to guess that in their respective degrees of unavailability that Couturier is even LESS available than Schenn.
Hey Chris, remember what you said when there were rumors of Flyers trading for Pronger? Didn't you say something like there's no chance of Flyers trading Sbisa?
You sound like you're the GM of the Flyers the way you keep presenting these "facts".
I'm willing to be that most non-Flyers wouldn't call that a "spectacular overpayment", in fact I don't think many think that's even near fair value for Ryan. Meszaros has a bad contract, that 1st would be in 20th-30th range and while Voracek has some potential, he really hasn't done anything special yet.
I'd be horrified if Ducks took that deal, regardless of team needs.
Well Homer would need to go thrpugh Snider to trade Couturier. Snider loves Couturier and raved about him in a Flyers uniform for years to come. I doubt even Bobby Ryan would make Snider trade him.
Honestly if the Ducks doesnt want the Voracek offer id just say goodday and move on. No reason for the Flyera to overpay for him
