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Jamie McBain to Philly

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Old
07-25-2012, 08:50 PM
  #26
Lethargic
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Originally Posted by ChuckW View Post
I guess I disagree with most (what else is new!) in saying I like McBain and I want to see him remain a Cane.

I think he is going to have a great season. If not, move him next offseason.
With sMurphy and the other PMD we have, McBain gives us the best trade value now. I say dump him while the value is higher, and let Murphy cut his teeth in the NHL.

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07-25-2012, 08:54 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by MadMardigan View Post
With sMurphy and the other PMD we have, McBain gives us the best trade value now. I say dump him while the value is higher, and let Murphy cut his teeth in the NHL.
I can see where Chuck is coming from though. Since he believes Eric will hit 100 points next season and Tlusty will hit 30 goals, I gotta believe his expectations for McBain are around 50 points. And in that case, we should keep McBain.

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07-25-2012, 08:55 PM
  #28
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I can see where Chuck is coming from though. Since he believes Eric will hit 100 points next season and Tlusty will hit 30 goals, I gotta believe his expectations for McBain are around 50 points. And in that case, we should keep McBain.
We like our group.

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07-25-2012, 09:13 PM
  #29
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I just think he's being trashed a bit too much because of a disappointing season. But the one before that he was annointed the chosen one.

Give the guy a break and another chance, that's all I'm saying. You want to be watching this guy play for another team for 10 years a la Pronger because we got impatient?

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07-25-2012, 10:10 PM
  #30
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I just don't like the idea of trading away a homegrown, top-4 defenseman for a player that is anything less than essential to our plans. Matt Read is great, but we can live without him. What compels us to trade away assets that took years to develop, just as they're coming into their really useful seasons?

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07-25-2012, 10:46 PM
  #31
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Don't like trade for Matt Read.

Like trade from Simmonds - he has some actual attitude and toughness, something we're a bit lacking in, and he's got some scoring touch too. Would be a good linemate for Skinner.

I might be willing to go as high as McBain + 2nd for Simmonds.

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07-25-2012, 11:00 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Troll Ward View Post
Don't like trade for Matt Read.

Like trade from Simmonds - he has some actual attitude and toughness, something we're a bit lacking in, and he's got some scoring touch too. Would be a good linemate for Skinner.

I might be willing to go as high as McBain + 2nd for Simmonds.
Wouldn't be enough for the Flyers. If they wanted to move Voracek or Simmonds they'd probably make them part of a package to go for Yandle or Enstrom. McBain, while good and still improving, isn't good enough to get Voracek or Simmonds.

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07-25-2012, 11:56 PM
  #33
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I want to be clear on where I value McBain. I think he's a hell of a player and have always been at the forefront defending him. He's very efficient and quiet and can move the puck well. Is he a top four defender right now? It's questionable. I think he may be top four like Joe Corvo is top four in the sense that you can play him there but ideally he's going to be getting 17 or 18 minutes a night relatively sheltered and powerplay time. Is he essential personnel for this team? Not in my opinion. I feel like if you can immediately upgrade our top six forwards or at minimum top nine forwards then you take a shot.

Matt Read put up 47 points as a rookie for the Flyers in limited capacity. That thrusts him directly to the forefront of our roster and supplants guys like Larose and Tlusty back to third line consideration where they would ideally belong. He would be a fantastic fit anywhere in our lineup and can play two positions. Any role you need from him you'll get it. The true definition of plug and play.

Plus, I don't see him as maxed out on potential either. I think every player has an adjustment period to the NHL and it wouldn't surprise me to see Read develop a bit further and perhaps challenge for 60-70 points in his prime. He has a load of natural talent.

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Old
07-26-2012, 12:11 AM
  #34
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I'm not sure there is a more fair trade that would help both teams in all the land than Read-for-McBain. So it obviously won't happen and we're wasting our time talking about it.

And again, this is nothing against Jamie, although some will see it that way anyhow. It's simply that we need the forward more. I like Jamie. I like Read. Nobody its saying there is anything wrong with Jamie McBain. There is no need to defend him. If he wasn't good with a chance to get better, we wouldn't be able to get Matt Read for him.

I hate that I have to type that disclaimer every time I endorse a fake trade on a message board. Is there any chance we can agree as a group that just because we offer up a player in a fake trade, that doesn't mean we don't like him, and nobody has to immediately run to his defense?


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07-26-2012, 05:55 AM
  #35
Boom Boom Anton
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I question why people feel we need a forward right now more than a defenseman? IMO, our defense is pretty atrocious and inexperienced. This team has given up more shots the last 2 seasons than any other team in the league and a swap of Allen for Corvo won't help that. I'm by no means saying don't trade McBain for the right deal, but going into the season with:

Pitkanen-Corvo
Gleason-Faulk
Harrison-Sanguinetti/Murphy

Yikes...especially since Pitkanen is bound to miss at least 10 games and the same goes for Harrison. I also think penciling Murphy into the lineup is very risky and I wouldn't want to count on it. I remember a few years ago people prematurely penciling McBain into a top pairing spot after his 14game debut.

I'm not disputing that Read for McBain seems like fair value, but personally, I'd rather do something to shore up the defense before making a trade like that.

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07-26-2012, 07:39 AM
  #36
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I agree with ^your overall premise^, but don't think that McBain does enough to make the *defense* better. The Canes really need a RHD who can cover for Pitkanen in the top pairing, and that person is not - and in my opinion, never will be - McBain nor Corvo. I'm *hoping* it will be Faulk, but that remains to be seen.

I'm just not of the opinion that losing McBain significantly hurts the Canes defensively.

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07-26-2012, 07:42 AM
  #37
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Yep, losing McBain does not nothing to hurt an already soft defense. He's the 7th or 8th man right now.

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Old
07-26-2012, 08:06 AM
  #38
Boom Boom Anton
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I don't think losing McBain drastically impacts the defense per se, but he is better and more of a known than Sanguinetti and Murphy and Gragnani. Without McBain, when an injury occurs, those guys will be relied upon too much and it will be a disaster IMO.

Anyhow, my point was more general....that I think we need defensive help more than offensive help. If a defenseman was to be traded, then I'd prefer it be to help on the defensive end first. Or at least make a move to shore up the defense before making a trade for offensive help.

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07-26-2012, 08:17 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Boom Boom Anton View Post
Without McBain, when an injury occurs, those guys will be relied upon too much and it will be a disaster IMO.
I just don't see a "disastrous" difference between McBain and those two (Sanguinetti and Gragnani). I'm not even sure I'd use the words "very significant" in place of it.

EDIT: *defensively*, that is.

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Old
07-26-2012, 08:33 AM
  #40
Boom Boom Anton
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Originally Posted by geehaad View Post
I just don't see a "disastrous" difference between McBain and those two (Sanguinetti and Gragnani). I'm not even sure I'd use the words "very significant" in place of it.

EDIT: *defensively*, that is.
Well, disaster was probably too strong a word, but IMO, they are both much bigger risks and haven't shown anything that indicates they are even marginally capable NHL defenders. McBain is at least serviceable IMO.

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07-26-2012, 11:05 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Boom Boom Anton View Post
I question why people feel we need a forward right now more than a defenseman? IMO, our defense is pretty atrocious and inexperienced. This team has given up more shots the last 2 seasons than any other team in the league and a swap of Allen for Corvo won't help that. I'm by no means saying don't trade McBain for the right deal, but going into the season with:

Pitkanen-Corvo
Gleason-Faulk
Harrison-Sanguinetti/Murphy

Yikes...especially since Pitkanen is bound to miss at least 10 games and the same goes for Harrison. I also think penciling Murphy into the lineup is very risky and I wouldn't want to count on it. I remember a few years ago people prematurely penciling McBain into a top pairing spot after his 14game debut.

I'm not disputing that Read for McBain seems like fair value, but personally, I'd rather do something to shore up the defense before making a trade like that.
Both our forwards and defense need an upgrade at the top, no doubt. We're very deep with marginal guys at both positions. My point in thinking Read helps more than McBain, is that Read can help our top six forwards, whereas McBain is a bottom pairing defenseman. In my opinion, we need to start bumping guys like LaRose, Tlusty and even Jokinen and (to a lesser extent) Ruutu down the depth chart to have any kind of real chance.

A top six of Staal, Staal, Skinner, Semin, Read, Ruutu goes a long way in accomplishing that. Keep in mind that I'm not "down" on Tlusty, LaRose, Jokinen and Ruutu, I just think that when you have a top six full of guys like that, you kinda suck. Even Tlusty's "breakout" year last year was underwhelming. He's a third-liner.

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07-26-2012, 11:14 AM
  #42
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From Tlusty to Read, and consequently, from Nodl to Tlusty is a big jump.

From McBain to Murphy might happen even if McBain stays.

That being said, I don't see Philly trading their 20+ goal rookie (albeit an older one) for our borderline #6 dman, so it's sort of moot.

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Old
07-26-2012, 11:16 AM
  #43
Boom Boom Anton
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Originally Posted by totalkev View Post
Both our forwards and defense need an upgrade at the top, no doubt. We're very deep with marginal guys at both positions. My point in thinking Read helps more than McBain, is that Read can help our top six forwards, whereas McBain is a bottom pairing defenseman. In my opinion, we need to start bumping guys like LaRose, Tlusty and even Jokinen and (to a lesser extent) Ruutu down the depth chart to have any kind of real chance.

A top six of Staal, Staal, Skinner, Semin, Read, Ruutu goes a long way in accomplishing that. Keep in mind that I'm not "down" on Tlusty, LaRose, Jokinen and Ruutu, I just think that when you have a top six full of guys like that, you kinda suck. Even Tlusty's "breakout" year last year was underwhelming. He's a third-liner.
that's fair. I'd just think our defense is the weakest part of the team and needs an upgrade more than offense. I guess it's almost 6 in one, half dozen in another.

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Old
07-26-2012, 12:11 PM
  #44
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that's fair. I'd just think our defense is the weakest part of the team and needs an upgrade more than offense. I guess it's almost 6 in one, half dozen in another.
I agree, looking at ADVANCED HOCKEY STATS, like goals scored and shots against. Since 07-08 the Canes were top five in scoring once, and other than that have bounced around between 12th-17th since. Pretty much what you'd call average. Shots against are interesting too. From the same year until now it goes 16th, 14th, 22nd, 30th, 30th.

So while an upgrade on offense would be nice, an upgrade on defense is more necessary, IMO.

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Old
07-26-2012, 12:58 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by totalkev View Post
A top six of Staal, Staal, Skinner, Semin, Read, Ruutu goes a long way in accomplishing that. Keep in mind that I'm not "down" on Tlusty, LaRose, Jokinen and Ruutu, I just think that when you have a top six full of guys like that, you kinda suck. Even Tlusty's "breakout" year last year was underwhelming. He's a third-liner.
This is a team on a budget in a salary cap league. You're not going to have a bunch of superstars so the smart move is to build around strong centers. Which, to JR's credit, is exactly what he's been doing for a while now.

The Penguins have had great success plugging in marginally talented wingers around Crosby and Malkin. Now granted, the Staals are not Crosby and Malkin, but they are more than capable of raising the level of the guys around them.

If we can get Semin or somebody like him, the pieces are there to have a great offense.

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