HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Bobby Ryan

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-26-2012, 08:45 AM
  #101
Pepper
Registered User
 
Pepper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,465
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Honestly if the Ducks doesnt want the Voracek offer id just say goodday and move on. No reason for the Flyera to overpay for him
I fully agree. Flyers have no reason to overpay, Ducks have no reason to give up Ryan for something that doesn't make the team better.

But to call Voracek + Meszaros + 1st spectacular overpayment for Ryan is just downright silly.

Pepper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-26-2012, 09:35 AM
  #102
Jack de la Hoya
Registered User
 
Jack de la Hoya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Texas
Country: United States
Posts: 14,073
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
I fully agree. Flyers have no reason to overpay, Ducks have no reason to give up Ryan for something that doesn't make the team better.

But to call Voracek + Meszaros + 1st spectacular overpayment for Ryan is just downright silly.
The difference between a 22 year-old, two-way, 50 point winger, and a 25 year-old, two-way, 70 point winger, is not a young top-4 defenseman and a first round pick.

It seems to me that as a matter of pure value, Voracek + Mez or Voracek + 1st is much closer than all three together.

Jack de la Hoya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-26-2012, 09:43 AM
  #103
Pepper
Registered User
 
Pepper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,465
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
The difference between a 22 year-old, two-way, 50 point winger, and a 25 year-old, two-way, 70 point winger, is not a young top-4 defenseman and a first round pick.

It seems to me that as a matter of pure value, Voracek + Mez or Voracek + 1st is much closer than all three together.
Meszaros turns 28 in few monts. Not old, not young. His contract is not exactly greatness either.

The difference between 20g, 50p winger and 35g,70p winger is pretty big, especially given that Ryan brings much more physicality.

That 1st rounder is pretty late one, it's not like you're trading a top10 pick.

Personally I think Voracek, Meszaros and Flyers 1st is not fair value for Ryan.

Pepper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-26-2012, 09:49 AM
  #104
Jack de la Hoya
Registered User
 
Jack de la Hoya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Texas
Country: United States
Posts: 14,073
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Meszaros turns 28 in few monts. Not old, not young. His contract is not exactly greatness either.

The difference between 20g, 50p winger and 35g,70p winger is pretty big, especially given that Ryan brings much more physicality.

That 1st rounder is pretty late one, it's not like you're trading a top10 pick.

Personally I think Voracek, Meszaros and Flyers 1st is not fair value for Ryan.
Mezsaros turns 27 in October. That draft pick won't likely be top-10, but it could be around 20 again.

Agree to disagree, I guess. I just don't see past precedents in which a player of Ryan's caliber returned two good, young NHL players as well as a 1st. (Voracek is a clear tier above Dubinsky / AA--who are closer to Mezsaros' level).

Jack de la Hoya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-26-2012, 09:59 AM
  #105
Protest
C`est La Vie
 
Protest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Deptford, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 4,565
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Meszaros turns 28 in few monts. Not old, not young. His contract is not exactly greatness either.

The difference between 20g, 50p winger and 35g,70p winger is pretty big, especially given that Ryan brings much more physicality.

That 1st rounder is pretty late one, it's not like you're trading a top10 pick.

Personally I think Voracek, Meszaros and Flyers 1st is not fair value for Ryan.
Who's the 35g 70p winger?

Protest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-26-2012, 10:10 AM
  #106
Pepper
Registered User
 
Pepper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,465
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
Mezsaros turns 27 in October. That draft pick won't likely be top-10, but it could be around 20 again.
You're right, he turns 27 in october. My bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
Agree to disagree, I guess. I just don't see past precedents in which a player of Ryan's caliber returned two good, young NHL players as well as a 1st. (Voracek is a clear tier above Dubinsky / AA--who are closer to Mezsaros' level).
Yes, we agree to disagree.

Also I'd argue that Voracek has POTENTIAL to be a tier above Dubinsky. Right now he's not above. Same goes for AA who's about the same age and has similar stats.

Pepper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-26-2012, 10:11 AM
  #107
Pepper
Registered User
 
Pepper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,465
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Protest View Post
Who's the 35g 70p winger?
Duh...

Pepper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-26-2012, 10:16 AM
  #108
Jack de la Hoya
Registered User
 
Jack de la Hoya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Texas
Country: United States
Posts: 14,073
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Also I'd argue that Voracek has POTENTIAL to be a tier above Dubinsky. Right now he's not above. Same goes for AA who's about the same age and has similar stats.
With the exception of one break-out season (which came at the age of 25), Dubinsky's production tracks pretty closely with Jake's--except the latter did it at age 18-21. Anisimov has only topped 40 points once--and, again, is 2 years older. If you look at their stats, Voracek is a step ahead of each player in terms of average production, etc.--and that's without taking into account the age difference.

I don't think it is a stretch to suggest that he's a more valuable asset.

Jack de la Hoya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-26-2012, 10:19 AM
  #109
Protest
C`est La Vie
 
Protest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Deptford, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 4,565
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Duh...
Oh the guy that hit 35 goals and 70 points once...sorry I forgot.

Protest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-26-2012, 10:20 AM
  #110
Jack de la Hoya
Registered User
 
Jack de la Hoya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Texas
Country: United States
Posts: 14,073
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Protest View Post
Oh the guy that hit 35 goals and 70 points once...sorry I forgot.
To be fair, Jake has never scored 20 goals...but he referred to him as a 20 goal, 50 point player, and you didn't object to that.


Last edited by Jack de la Hoya: 07-26-2012 at 11:19 AM.
Jack de la Hoya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-26-2012, 10:24 AM
  #111
Pepper
Registered User
 
Pepper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,465
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
With the exception of one break-out season (which came at the age of 25), Dubinsky's production tracks pretty closely with Jake's--except the latter did it at age 18-21. Anisimov has only topped 40 points once--and, again, is 2 years older. If you look at their stats, Voracek is a step ahead of each player in terms of average production, etc.--and that's without taking into account the age difference.

I don't think it is a stretch to suggest that he's a more valuable asset.
Of course he's more valuable because he still has time to up his game and reach his potential. What's somewhat worrying is the fact that Voracek hasn't been able to crack 50p since his second NHL season. Last season he got more PP time per game than all other Flyers forwards except Giroux.

Next season will tell a lot (assuming there's a CBA in place...)

Pepper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-26-2012, 10:26 AM
  #112
Pepper
Registered User
 
Pepper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,465
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Protest View Post
Oh the guy that hit 35 goals and 70 points once...sorry I forgot.
Well, I did call Voracek a 20g, 50p player even though he has managed to hit 50p once and 20g well, never.

EDIT: ah Jeh82 already mentioned it.

Pepper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-26-2012, 10:26 AM
  #113
Damaged Goods
Registered User
 
Damaged Goods's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 2,027
vCash: 500
He was a puck-handler on a PP unit where the puck-handling was rightfully hogged by Giroux. Voracek spent a lot of those PP minutes as a spectator.

Damaged Goods is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-26-2012, 10:32 AM
  #114
Protest
C`est La Vie
 
Protest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Deptford, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 4,565
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
To be fair, Jake has never broke 20 goals...but he referred to him as a 20 goal, 50 point player, and you didn't object to that.
I object to that as well then.

Moral of the story: I'm tired of people acting like Bobby Ryan is Ilya Kovalchuk.

Protest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-26-2012, 10:32 AM
  #115
ORYX
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,477
vCash: 500
Its more fair calling Voracek a 50 pt player as he has been within that total 3 times. 50 pts once, 49 Once, 46 once, the past 3 seasons.

Ryan has had 71 pts once, and every other year his highest is 64, having only broke 60 points twice in his career. the other good years are with totals of 57 points each.

Thats hardly a 70 point player when we are looking at avg here. where as Voracek can be referred to as a 50 pt player because his average is much much closer to that title, even though they have each only his there designations once.

Ryan is not a 70 point player, but a 70 point threat, and a 60 point player. Voracek is a 50 point player, at current for both.

Solved, moving on.

ORYX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-26-2012, 10:36 AM
  #116
Damaged Goods
Registered User
 
Damaged Goods's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 2,027
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
To be fair, Jake has never broke 20 goals...but he referred to him as a 20 goal, 50 point player, and you didn't object to that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque



Most people probably don't realize when they do this.

Damaged Goods is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-26-2012, 11:00 AM
  #117
Jack de la Hoya
Registered User
 
Jack de la Hoya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Texas
Country: United States
Posts: 14,073
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque



Most people probably don't realize when they do this.
Hardly.

The way I read his comment, the poster was characterizing the production he felt reasonably could be expected next year--and not describing past accomplishments. If he was doing the former, then he might be low-balling Jake a bit, but he isn't being inconsistent. If he's doing the latter, then both are incorrect, or at least partially incorrect. You chose to treat the two aspects of the post with different standards. Pointing out that inconsistency is not an "ad hominem" attack--particularly because I was not using it to dispute your claim, but rather raising the point to get you to clarify your position.

While Ryan has never had a 35 goal-70 point season, he's had a 34 goal, 71 point season. Jake has never broken 20 goals, so characterizing him as a 20 goal, 50 point player can't be considered a fair characterization of his past accomplishments, can it?

This is all a bit silly anyway. I think most of us can agree that Ryan is a better player--and that Jake will not likely ever develop to match Ryan's offensive production--particularly his goal-scoring. The disagreement seems to come in sizing up the difference between Ryan's peak and Jake's potential, on the one hand, and ascertaining the value of that difference, on the other.

Jack de la Hoya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-26-2012, 11:20 AM
  #118
Jack de la Hoya
Registered User
 
Jack de la Hoya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Texas
Country: United States
Posts: 14,073
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damaged Goods View Post
He was a puck-handler on a PP unit where the puck-handling was rightfully hogged by Giroux. Voracek spent a lot of those PP minutes as a spectator.
It would be nice if he could develop his one-time a bit from that side, though--particularly given our lack of big shot from the point.

Jack de la Hoya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-26-2012, 11:21 AM
  #119
healthyscratch
Registered User
 
healthyscratch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Philly
Posts: 5,462
vCash: 633
Bobby Ryan on G's wing would be devastating. I'm for him in OnB. Jake, Mesz, 2nd for Ryan, Beauchemin.

healthyscratch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-26-2012, 11:22 AM
  #120
Jack de la Hoya
Registered User
 
Jack de la Hoya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Texas
Country: United States
Posts: 14,073
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by healthyscratch View Post
Jake, Mesz, 2nd for Ryan, Beauchemin.
That's not a very good deal for Anaheim, is it? Beauchemin's a pretty valuable piece of that team--and I believe he has a NTC anyway.

Jack de la Hoya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-26-2012, 12:33 PM
  #121
Chelle
Registered User
 
Chelle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Sweden
Country: Sweden
Posts: 453
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by healthyscratch View Post
Bobby Ryan on G's wing would be devastating. I'm for him in OnB. Jake, Mesz, 2nd for Ryan, Beauchemin.
Ryan > Voracek
Beauchemin >> Meszaros

So yeah, a 2nd rounder seems enough to even it out....

Chelle is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-26-2012, 12:35 PM
  #122
healthyscratch
Registered User
 
healthyscratch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Philly
Posts: 5,462
vCash: 633
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chelle View Post
Ryan > Voracek
Beauchemin >> Meszaros

So yeah, a 2nd rounder seems enough to even it out....
Cool, where do I sign?

healthyscratch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-26-2012, 12:48 PM
  #123
Jtown
Registered User
 
Jtown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Fairfax, Virginia
Posts: 12,366
vCash: 500
Good to see im not the only one with a crush on Beauchemin.


The Ducks could be in serious trouble next year. Getzlaf and Perry as UFA's to go along with koivu and selanne.

It could be a disaster over there real soon.

Jtown is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-26-2012, 04:18 PM
  #124
Prongo
Beer
 
Prongo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 14,410
vCash: 500
Im going to say it, Anaheim Duck fans are delusional. I don't think they are a playoff team next year. Perry and Getzlaf are very nice pieces to have, but beyond that(Ryan and Selanne) they really have nothing. Koivu is old as dirt and slowed terribly by injuries. DSP is still very young, and they are expecting a lot from a player who hasn't played a full season in the NHL. Their depth is horrible, besides their four star players.

Defense is also a struggle for them. Yes they did sign Souray(slower and old) and Bryan Allen(not much offense), but they will not dramatically improve that team. Fowler took a step back last year from all I heard, and Sbisa is still developing into a top 4 defender. I believe it would be their teams best interest to maybe start a mini rebuild, and I am not just saying trading Ryan to us. They are still some ways off I feel from being a Stanley Cup contender.

Prongo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-26-2012, 04:21 PM
  #125
jax00
DangleSnipe&Celly
 
jax00's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Anaslime
Country: United States
Posts: 8,568
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyersfan9180 View Post
Im going to say it, Anaheim Duck fans are delusional. I don't think they are a playoff team next year. Perry and Getzlaf are very nice pieces to have, but beyond that(Ryan and Selanne) they really have nothing. Koivu is old as dirt and slowed terribly by injuries. DSP is still very young, and they are expecting a lot from a player who hasn't played a full season in the NHL. Their depth is horrible, besides their four star players.

Defense is also a struggle for them. Yes they did sign Souray(slower and old) and Bryan Allen(not much offense), but they will not dramatically improve that team. Fowler took a step back last year from all I heard, and Sbisa is still developing into a top 4 defender. I believe it would be their teams best interest to maybe start a mini rebuild, and I am not just saying trading Ryan to us. They are still some ways off I feel from being a Stanley Cup contender.
And I thought I was pessimistic about this upcoming season...

jax00 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:51 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.