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07-26-2012, 10:07 AM
  #251
Chileiceman
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Originally Posted by Sgarbossy View Post
A reported average of 18 US veterans commit suicide daily. Thats 150% the amount of people that were murdered in that theatre. Those are simply suicides, and that number has finally overtaken the amount of US military killed every year from hostile attacks during deployment.

If our rights as US citizens are even remotely inhibited because of this one guy killing 12 people with firearms, all of those military folks who have given (or taken) their lives will have had their sacrifices forever tarnished. For shame that we as a country can kowtow to fear based reaction and voluntarily strip ourselves of our freedoms as declared by the Constitution.
Yes, people go to war and die so that all the Billy Bob rednecks back home can have guns. Because that's freedom right there!!

Nevermind that many people who love each other can't marry each other, or the garbage minimum wage in many states or the millions that can't afford decent healthcare. Those things weren't mandated in a document written in freaking 1776. As we can obviously see, nothing has changed since then. Those Brits are still a menace and you should be well armed against them. Children are still dying of polio and the black slaves are lazy as ever. Oh, when will progress come.

If anything take away guns and it'll be harder for these people to commit suicide.

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07-26-2012, 10:11 AM
  #252
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situations like these are where I don't understand how defense lawyers sleep at night. Jesus, how could you possibly try and defend what he's totally, certainly, completely responsible for?
As a defense lawyer, your job isn't to "make" or "help" a guy go free, your simply giving him the defense he constitutionally deserves. It's not an endorsement. You can't change the facts of the case, your simply showing his side of it. I've never felt that the supposed moral hazard of being defense lawyer was really true.

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07-26-2012, 10:13 AM
  #253
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Our rights under the second amendment states that a well-regulated militia has the right to bear arms.
Depends on how you construe the constitution.

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07-26-2012, 10:27 AM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Chileiceman View Post
Yes, people go to war and die so that all the Billy Bob rednecks back home can have guns. Because that's freedom right there!!

Nevermind that many people who love each other can't marry each other, or the garbage minimum wage in many states or the millions that can't afford decent healthcare. Those things weren't mandated in a document written in freaking 1776. As we can obviously see, nothing has changed since then. Those Brits are still a menace and you should be well armed against them. Children are still dying of polio and the black slaves are lazy as ever. Oh, when will progress come.

If anything take away guns and it'll be harder for these people to commit suicide.
Yes, Chili. You may not understand the pride our veterans have in defending our constitution. That is freedom. Don't let that stop you from posting some sarcastic nonsense full of hyperboly though.

Go ahead and propose a scenario of how guns in the United States could be 'taken away'. Could you even imagine the logistics of such an operation to be sure that every firearm currently in my country is no longer in the ownership of a private citizen? Logistics aside, I guarantee that something like that would start another revolution. Moreover, history has shown that disarming a population is one of the first steps towards dictatorship.

But let's keep talking about the lazy slaves and polio children.

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07-26-2012, 10:46 AM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Sgarbossy View Post
Yes, Chili. You may not understand the pride our veterans have in defending our constitution. That is freedom. Don't let that stop you from posting some sarcastic nonsense full of hyperboly though.

Go ahead and propose a scenario of how guns in the United States could be 'taken away'. Could you even imagine the logistics of such an operation to be sure that every firearm currently in my country is no longer in the ownership of a private citizen? Logistics aside, I guarantee that something like that would start another revolution. Moreover, history has shown that disarming a population is one of the first steps towards dictatorship.

But let's keep talking about the lazy slaves and polio children.
A few points.

America does not fight for freedom, save from ostensibly. They fight for national interest. There may be some fashion in which some concept of freedom is draped around national interest, but veterans did not, have not, and never will fight for freedom.

Let me mention that America was never about freedom, thats our postmodern excuse making so that we can put America and it's founding on some type of moral high ground. Was freedom part of the equation for the founding of America? Most certainly, but was the goddamned idea or whatever the **** they try to narrate it as nowadays? No.

"defending the constution" usually means, "protecting what I think the constution means".

I won't argue the point that guns cannot be taken away in the absolute sense, but it's a bit nonsensical (read= false choice) to state that doing nothing is the other answer.

And many, many, many countries have been fine without guns.

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07-26-2012, 11:04 AM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Sgarbossy View Post
Yes, Chili. You may not understand the pride our veterans have in defending our constitution. That is freedom. Don't let that stop you from posting some sarcastic nonsense full of hyperboly though.

Go ahead and propose a scenario of how guns in the United States could be 'taken away'. Could you even imagine the logistics of such an operation to be sure that every firearm currently in my country is no longer in the ownership of a private citizen? Logistics aside, I guarantee that something like that would start another revolution. Moreover, history has shown that disarming a population is one of the first steps towards dictatorship.

But let's keep talking about the lazy slaves and polio children.
The constitution is not the United States of America. You mean to tell me they were in Iraq and Afghanistan because they had to defend the constitution? I agree 100% with everything Alex Jones says in the post above me. This idea of the sacred constitution has been blown way out of proportion. Was it a revolutionary document at the time? Of course. But flash forward almost 240 years later and now every free democracy has a constitution. It's not really a unique concept.

The US sends soldiers where it's convenient to them, just like every other country would. They do nothing about Syria because the UN security council won't let them, but that didn't seem to matter in 2003. Are the soldiers unbelievably brave? Of course they are, and they should be honoured and respected for that. Are they always actually defending the best interest of every day Americans? No. Just following orders.

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07-26-2012, 11:07 AM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Alex Jones View Post
A few points.

America does not fight for freedom, save from ostensibly. They fight for national interest. There may be some fashion in which some concept of freedom is draped around national interest, but veterans did not, have not, and never will fight for freedom.

Let me mention that America was never about freedom, thats our postmodern excuse making so that we can put America and it's founding on some type of moral high ground. Was freedom part of the equation for the founding of America? Most certainly, but was the goddamned idea or whatever the **** they try to narrate it as nowadays? No.

"defending the constution" usually means, "protecting what I think the constution means".

I won't argue the point that guns cannot be taken away in the absolute sense, but it's a bit nonsensical (read= false choice) to state that doing nothing is the other answer.

And many, many, many countries have been fine without guns.
I see what you are saying, but disagree. What, if anything, was America about if not freedom from the monarchy of England? Technically, it was a Declaration of Independence to be sure. There is truth in your statement about defending the constitution and the subjective shadow cast over its meaning. In my eyes, this is due to the politicization of the Supreme Court, but that is an entirely different conversation. I would even go so far as to say the idea of America in the eyes of the founding fathers is far different from where we are today. Yet it remains that 'freedom' and 'rights' in the eyes of those forefathers did in fact include the right to bear arms. Again, the implied meaning of militias et al is somewhat subjective it seems.

At any rate, elimination of firearms in this country is a false choice indeed. Maybe it boils my blood to read all the gun control expert opinions riddled with inflammatory rubbish.

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07-26-2012, 11:42 AM
  #258
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yeah, yeah... America bad... everywhere else good. We get it. Shut the **** up and move on.

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07-26-2012, 11:46 AM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Sgarbossy View Post
I see what you are saying, but disagree. What, if anything, was America about if not freedom from the monarchy of England? Technically, it was a Declaration of Independence to be sure. There is truth in your statement about defending the constitution and the subjective shadow cast over its meaning. In my eyes, this is due to the politicization of the Supreme Court, but that is an entirely different conversation. I would even go so far as to say the idea of America in the eyes of the founding fathers is far different from where we are today. Yet it remains that 'freedom' and 'rights' in the eyes of those forefathers did in fact include the right to bear arms. Again, the implied meaning of militias et al is somewhat subjective it seems.

At any rate, elimination of firearms in this country is a false choice indeed. Maybe it boils my blood to read all the gun control expert opinions riddled with inflammatory rubbish.
What do you mean, "what was America about"?

I mean, if you're going to make the argument that America was about freedom simply because they wanted freedom from england, well then every revolution is about freedom, and most certainly this is not true.

But what was America about?

Truth is, America is "about" what almost everything is about, opportunism and self-want. I generally don't belive in historical narration.

What happens is that people try to place vast philosophic or ideological undertones to historical events that were almost always far more nuanced, far more complex, and far less intellectually pure.

People try to state, "America was about freedom" in the modern day because that's what we want it to be about. America has always been a nation obsessed with it's own moral superiority and we keep bending the story of our nation to fit whatever the popular ideological undertow is.

Was there some sort of notion of freedom in the founding of America? Sure, I guess. but is that really why people joined the revolution? No, it was generally because they didn't want to pay the taxes, or because they wanted representation in Parliament, or because they didn't like the intrusions of the british army, not because they wanted to expand freedom per se.

The idea of America wasn't a singular concept upon founding, it was many things to many people. Ever since that founding we've made it about stuff. That's how historical narration happens. Usually things happen not because of the singularity of intrest, but the confluence of opportunity.

The american revolution and the founding of America happened because a lot of people found a similar way (revolution) in which they could capitalize on whatever their issue was with the British, not because of "freedom", that was only part of the story.

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07-26-2012, 12:05 PM
  #260
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What do you mean, "what was America about"?

I mean, if you're going to make the argument that America was about freedom simply because they wanted freedom from england, well then every revolution is about freedom, and most certainly this is not true.

But what was America about?

Truth is, America is "about" what almost everything is about, opportunism and self-want. I generally don't belive in historical narration.

What happens is that people try to place vast philosophic or ideological undertones to historical events that were almost always far more nuanced, far more complex, and far less intellectually pure.

People try to state, "America was about freedom" in the modern day because that's what we want it to be about. America has always been a nation obsessed with it's own moral superiority and we keep bending the story of our nation to fit whatever the popular ideological undertow is.

Was there some sort of notion of freedom in the founding of America? Sure, I guess. but is that really why people joined the revolution? No, it was generally because they didn't want to pay the taxes, or because they wanted representation in Parliament, or because they didn't like the intrusions of the british army, not because they wanted to expand freedom per se.

The idea of America wasn't a singular concept upon founding, it was many things to many people. Ever since that founding we've made it about stuff. That's how historical narration happens. Usually things happen not because of the singularity of intrest, but the confluence of opportunity.

The american revolution and the founding of America happened because a lot of people found a similar way (revolution) in which they could capitalize on whatever their issue was with the British, not because of "freedom", that was only part of the story.
Listen, I am not going to address any of this because it had nothing to do with my original point. I do appreciate your thoughtful response though. My point was that this is not a gun control issue. It should not become a gun control issue, nor would changes in gun control policy have prevented this nutjob from doing something equally terrifying or destructive. While I admit we cannot truly know what this guy would have done in the absence of firearms, many people agree that the opportunity would have been there for Holmes to act upon. I think that is a fair and reasonable speculation. Maybe the appeal to emotion about soldiers defending the constitution threw this off track.

This incident should highlight, if anything, the fundamental flaws in not only the state of mental health care in our nation, but also of our health care system overall. Don't bother to ask me what the solution is, because I haven't the foggiest idea.
Perhaps even with ideal mental health care the shooting would have happened anyways. We have no idea.

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07-26-2012, 06:40 PM
  #261
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Carolina Panthers WR Steve Smith pledged $100,000 to the shooting victims today. Classy, classy move.

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07-28-2012, 07:36 AM
  #262
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Mods, can you please sticky this thread. I think it should be sticked for the whole season as a show of respect.

I read on Twitter that a news outlet says he might be autistic, can any no confirm that with a link? I work with children that have autism & don't want other people to think badly of all people with autism, if that is in fact true.

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07-28-2012, 07:39 AM
  #263
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I haven't read that he's autistic.

But I did read that he's now claiming to have amnesia; that he doesn't remember massacring those people, that he has no clue why he's in jail.

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07-28-2012, 10:18 AM
  #264
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I haven't read that he's autistic.

But I did read that he's now claiming to have amnesia; that he doesn't remember massacring those people, that he has no clue why he's in jail.
Jury better not buy his ******** and let him off the hook with the mental illness defense.

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07-28-2012, 11:34 AM
  #265
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Jury better not buy his ******** and let him off the hook with the mental illness defense.
To do what he did he has to have some form of mental illness. But he still should and will be locked away in one form or another for the rest of his life.

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07-28-2012, 11:40 AM
  #266
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I know nothing about the incident, and never heard of the guy. Put me on the jury. I'll be fair and impartial.

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07-28-2012, 12:09 PM
  #267
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To do what he did he has to have some form of mental illness. But he still should and will be locked away in one form or another for the rest of his life.
Yeah, not sure why people ever care what type of facility someone is locked away in as long as he is locked away. If he is legit crazy, then yeah he definitely needs to be in some sort of mental health facility. If he isn't, well, he's gonna become legit crazy if he gets locked away in a mental health facility. Mental health facilities aren't some sort of happy funtime blow-up castle sort of thing. Yeah he won't be getting the crap beat out of him by inmates (even that isn't guaranteed), but it's not like he gets to sit around and play videogames and have the time of his life all day.

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07-28-2012, 04:08 PM
  #268
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I haven't read that he's autistic.

But I did read that he's now claiming to have amnesia; that he doesn't remember massacring those people, that he has no clue why he's in jail.
eh, I know his lawyer wants to clam that he has a mental illness. pifft, amnesia my a$*, he knew exactly what he was doing.

Good, I'm glad about him not being autistic... I mean the last thing I want is for people to think badly about people with autism.

I stick up for people with autism, seeing as I work with children with autism, in an unrelated incident, when 50 Cent bashed them on Twitter.

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07-28-2012, 05:39 PM
  #269
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I stick up for people with autism, seeing as I work with children with autism, in an unrelated incident, when 50 Cent bashed them on Twitter.
well consider the source on that one. I mean 50 cent is such an upstanding citizen and all.

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07-28-2012, 08:20 PM
  #270
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Yeah, not sure why people ever care what type of facility someone is locked away in as long as he is locked away. If he is legit crazy, then yeah he definitely needs to be in some sort of mental health facility. If he isn't, well, he's gonna become legit crazy if he gets locked away in a mental health facility. Mental health facilities aren't some sort of happy funtime blow-up castle sort of thing. Yeah he won't be getting the crap beat out of him by inmates (even that isn't guaranteed), but it's not like he gets to sit around and play videogames and have the time of his life all day.
I want him to have the highest possible chance to die on the end of a sharpened tooth brush as possible.

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07-28-2012, 11:12 PM
  #271
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Good column by Adrian Dater- Jessica (Redfield) Ghawi: her light will burn bright forever

http://blogs.denverpost.com/avs/2012...-bright/11231/

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07-29-2012, 09:43 AM
  #272
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Yes, people go to war and die so that all the Billy Bob rednecks back home can have guns. Because that's freedom right there!!

Nevermind that many people who love each other can't marry each other, or the garbage minimum wage in many states or the millions that can't afford decent healthcare. Those things weren't mandated in a document written in freaking 1776. As we can obviously see, nothing has changed since then. Those Brits are still a menace and you should be well armed against them. Children are still dying of polio and the black slaves are lazy as ever. Oh, when will progress come.

If anything take away guns and it'll be harder for these people to commit suicide.
Not sure why you care whether billy bob redneck has a gun or not. He's never going to hurt anyone with it. The only thing gun stricter gun laws will accomplish is to disarm law abiding gun owners that posed no danger to society to begin with. Criminals aren't going to suddenly start following the law and turn over their black market guns.

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07-30-2012, 09:08 AM
  #273
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Court today for that clown. Hundred of counts?Life in jail.

That guy isn't too smart.

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08-01-2012, 09:56 PM
  #274
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Is the court case still going on?

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08-02-2012, 08:41 AM
  #275
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James Holmes has been charged with 24 counts of first-degree murder and 116 counts of attempted murder.

The district attorney in charge of the case supports the death penalty but is yet to determine if she will pursue it for Holmes.

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