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07-26-2012, 11:57 AM
  #1
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Question re Forwards Role in loss to NJ

One nagging issue bugs me. It is widely stated that we lost to NJ cuz our defense was crippled and possible goaltending issues (tho I argue Bryz played well enough in that series, he just got no help from rest of team).

I agree. Pronger was out, Timo is elderly and lost a step, Meszaros was hurt, even Grossman was injured... yeah our defense was (and probably still is) horrible.

BUT from my observations, everyone on the team was losing board battles and possession to the Devils.

Not just the defense corps, the forwards also, and in all zones (defense and offense).

On paper we had an awe inspiring offense, but did we really?

Why couldnt we make up for our defensive liabilities by outgunning and outscoring them?They only scored 2-4 goals per game max, if we put up a few goals we coulda won some of those.

Is our offense really that good? Or is it a paper tiger, effective only in a free wheeling run n gun joke series like Pittsburgh.
( which doesnt happen much in POs)

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07-26-2012, 12:06 PM
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A lot of forwards were injured.

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07-26-2012, 12:11 PM
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NJD's forecheck was too much for our D and most of our forwards couldnt adapt to help the D out more

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07-26-2012, 12:12 PM
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Forwards were hurt. The other forwards were young.

Plus we emotionally blew our load on the Penguins. If you've ever had your "championship bout" in round one when playing sports, you know what I mean.

The biggest factor though was the shredded paper that was our defense being held together by paperclips, glue, and Coburn.

They took advantage of a hurt defense and an inexperienced forward core. Given another opportunity and a healthy roster? I say we take them. I'm particularly unafraid of them now without Parise.

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07-26-2012, 12:24 PM
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Im glad this thread was brought up because it brings up some certain aspects about our team that are seriously flawed.

1. WE relied so heavily on the PP and from our first line all season long and including teh first series against pitt. I believe our PP was 50 percent against pitt.

1a. NJ just destroyed our PP and limited our PP chances. They played Jagr very physically and made that line extremly frustrated.


2. We were dominated physically that whole series.

2a. Wingers like clarkson, poni, and Zubrus are larger than any winger we could put out there and those guys dominated board play and possession.

3. I feel our system really takes advantages of other teams mistakes and tries to maximize as many odd man rushes as possible.

3a. NJ did a good job playing as a unit , and their defenders made sure to not get out of position and made us earn it in their end.




Overview:

all year our reliance on the PP and first line was clear as day. The previous year we were so strong even strength and this year we were complete opposite. Hopefully Couturier and Schenn can develop into guys who can solidify that 2nd line and give us the depth scoring we need to be competitive.

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07-26-2012, 12:36 PM
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I kind of agree with this. I've said many times before that I think people lay too much blame at the feet of our defense for the lack of coverage from our forwards. The board battles and play in the offensive zone can be more attributed to injuries and gameplanning by New Jersey though.

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07-26-2012, 12:47 PM
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The refereeing did not help at all in the NJ series... I am usually not one to moan about refereeing, but they were constantly holding, hooking and interfering, yet every time that a Flyer touched a Devil they went straight to the box.

We would have lost anyway though, we were outplayed in every game except the 1st, and we were even in the 3rd game.

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07-26-2012, 12:58 PM
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I think another thing not being mentioned is how much the Pitt series took out of us physically and emotionally especially for such a young team.

IM not going to lie when I say beating pitt, especially after the craziness of that series, put us all on an emotional high that was hard to match. That series brought out the best and worst in each team and it was hard to get pumped up for another team like we did for pitt.

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07-26-2012, 01:11 PM
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The second-round exit against the Devils was certainly a combination of the factors listed. Chris' point about how taxing the round vs Pittsburgh was is a key one for me. Coming out of that series was a Pyrrhic victory.

NJ played an excellent system that exposed the Flyers' weak board play at both ends of the rink, and they were the more physical team. While injuries certainly played a role, I don't like giving them too much importance as some of the Devils players were certainly injured, too, even though they had arguably a less physical series against Florida.

I agree, too, that the PP was a mess. I'm hopeful that Gervais could be a PP specialist to give a right-hand shot from the point.

It's not just pie in the sky to expect the Flyers team to be improved with another year of maturity and a full season (knock wood) of Grossmann. However, the coaching staff should be reviewing tapes of the games against NJ and other hard-forechecking teams and start planning to reduce vulnerability to it. This seems to be a particular Achilles' heel for L Schenn, so working as a unit to exit the defensive zone will be essential.

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07-26-2012, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
Im glad this thread was brought up because it brings up some certain aspects about our team that are seriously flawed.

1. WE relied so heavily on the PP and from our first line all season long and including teh first series against pitt. I believe our PP was 50 percent against pitt.

1a. NJ just destroyed our PP and limited our PP chances. They played Jagr very physically and made that line extremly frustrated.


2. We were dominated physically that whole series.

2a. Wingers like clarkson, poni, and Zubrus are larger than any winger we could put out there and those guys dominated board play and possession.

3. I feel our system really takes advantages of other teams mistakes and tries to maximize as many odd man rushes as possible.

3a. NJ did a good job playing as a unit , and their defenders made sure to not get out of position and made us earn it in their end.




Overview:

all year our reliance on the PP and first line was clear as day. The previous year we were so strong even strength and this year we were complete opposite. Hopefully Couturier and Schenn can develop into guys who can solidify that 2nd line and give us the depth scoring we need to be competitive.

post of the off season. completely agreed.

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07-26-2012, 02:43 PM
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So how many of those problems are likely to re surface next PO season? OK, exclude the defense for now and focus on forwards.

Dominated physically and out muscled by larger wingers like Poni and Zubrus alarms me in particular. Both those wingers and also Kovalchuk are known for being big guys who DO NOT use their size properly.

Do our forwards have a lack of size? Hartnell and Simmonds are comnsidered either power wingers or deevlioping power forwards.... but are the rest too small?

Clarkson is tough and big yes, but the otehrs listed? forgive me for being too Don Cherry ish, but how can Philly be out muscled by those lumbering Euro guys with no heart?

You know what? Call me crazy, but I wish a long time ago we had gone after Buff-lin (sic). Really. After that Chicago series we shouldve thrown money at him.

He can play defense and forward, so no Philly team would ever be 'outmuscled' again. Ever.

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07-26-2012, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BernieParent View Post

NJ played an excellent system that exposed the Flyers' weak board play at both ends of the rink, and they were the more physical team. While injuries certainly played a role, I don't like giving them too much importance as some of the Devils players were certainly injured, too, even though they had arguably a less physical series against Florida.

.
Big bad Flyers being the less physical team. This upsets me greatly. I love Philly cuz they're supposed to blend skill with toughness and physicality.

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07-26-2012, 02:50 PM
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Carle really sucked that series. Terrible passing out of the D-zone. Briere, Jagr, JVR were terrible defensively and the first 2 were just too slow for Devils.

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07-26-2012, 02:52 PM
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The sad reality is that we suck against teams that are boring. I don't know if Lavvy just can't adjust to the no pressure approach or left wing lock or trap or any of that garbage but we just can't beat the teams that make you want to turn your t.v off.

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07-26-2012, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
Overview:

all year our reliance on the PP and first line was clear as day. The previous year we were so strong even strength and this year we were complete opposite. Hopefully Couturier and Schenn can develop into guys who can solidify that 2nd line and give us the depth scoring we need to be competitive.
I also dont understand this. If any team did NOT depend too much on one forward line it shouldve been us.

In addition to first line we had:

Simmonds and Voracek
Couts and Schenn
Read and Talbot and JVR
Briere

Why did all those forwards turn into duds, all at the same time??

I just dont understand.

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07-26-2012, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rban View Post
I also dont understand this. If any team did NOT depend too much on one forward line it shouldve been us.

In addition to first line we had:

Simmonds and Voracek
Couts and Schenn
Read and Talbot and JVR
Briere

Why did all those forwards turn into duds, all at the same time??

I just dont understand.

The flyers put up some goudy stats against inferior opponents all year. Games against winnipeg, columbus, and carolina come to mind right off the bat.

However against good teams, Brier's line struggled mightily all season to the point where im not sure if he can be depended upon to be a center anymore.

There were too many times last year where we looked physically outmatched against teams unless giroux was on the ice. His play single handedly beat pittsburgh. Seriously re watch the series, its like nite and day when he is not on the ice.

As to your point about NJ's big europeans. Zubrus may not fight , same with poni, but when they are forechecking the hell out of you and beating you up on the boards its going to catch up with a smaller team eventually. Citing Simmonds as a big player is not doing you any good either. While pound for pound simmonds may be the best fighter in the game doesnt change the fact that he is barely 180 lbs with a 6 2 frame.

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07-26-2012, 03:08 PM
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We were constantly in our own zone because the devils kept the puck on the right side of the ice. Considering that every single defenseman was left handed on the players we couldn't get the puck out of the zone. When we did, our forwards were too tired from defending the entire time to chase it down. We must of played every single game in our own zone.

If was so retardedly simple, but Lavy did nothing to stop it, he still kept the left wing lock which failed utterly against them.

I love lavy as a coach but he's not x's and o's guy. It's two years in a row he has been badly outcoached. Allthough, i'm not exactly sure how you beat what the devils did to us.

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07-26-2012, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
The flyers put up some goudy stats against inferior opponents all year. Games against winnipeg, columbus, and carolina come to mind right off the bat.

However against good teams, Brier's line struggled mightily all season to the point where im not sure if he can be depended upon to be a center anymore.

There were too many times last year where we looked physically outmatched against teams unless giroux was on the ice. His play single handedly beat pittsburgh. Seriously re watch the series, its like nite and day when he is not on the ice.

As to your point about NJ's big europeans. Zubrus may not fight , same with poni, but when they are forechecking the hell out of you and beating you up on the boards its going to catch up with a smaller team eventually. Citing Simmonds as a big player is not doing you any good either. While pound for pound simmonds may be the best fighter in the game doesnt change the fact that he is barely 180 lbs with a 6 2 frame.
OK.. I'll point out that Poni is not a good checker or hitter at all, but maybe Zubrus is.

So can we make an itemized list of which forwards on our team will not turn into pumpkins or turkeys next PO?

Cuz the Rags are boring, NJ is boring, everyone in the POs is boring. We have to beat boring teams.

Let's assume Harts-Gir-Voracek will do well.

Who else will?

Couts and Schenn will still be young and inexperienced so they wont. Briere probakly wont

Other than the first line, Couts and Schenn,and Briere, which forwards will play well against a Devil clone next PO season?


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07-26-2012, 03:36 PM
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OK.. I'll point out that Poni is not a good checker or hitter at all, but maybe Zubrus is.

So can we make an itemized list of which forwards on our team will not turn into pumpkins or turkeys next PO?

Cuz the Rags are boring, NJ is boring, everyone in the POs is boring. We have to beat boring teams.

Let's assume Harts-Gir-Voracek will do well.

Who else will?

Couts and Schenn will still be young and inexperienced so they wont. Briere probakly wont

Other than the first line, Couts and Schenn,and Briere, which forwards will play well against a Devil clone next PO season?


Youth, experience, and an incredibly emotional series against the pens , as well as a team that was a bad matchup for us.

The talent on the roster is not as great as last year, but talent was never our concern. What we need is for one or both of Schenn and Couturier to be a second line center that is responsible on both sides of the ice and able to lead a line. Last year that was not their role, this year it may be a different story.

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07-26-2012, 05:06 PM
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07-26-2012, 05:31 PM
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do you really believe the flyers would have won that series if that didnt happen? the devils were killing us the whole series it would have made no difference. get a clue will you? you expect a goalie to score goals for you too?

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07-26-2012, 05:40 PM
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do you really believe the flyers would have won that series if that didnt happen? the devils were killing us the whole series it would have made no difference. get a clue will you? you expect a goalie to score goals for you too?
No I don't. But the least he could have done was given us a chance to regain our footing.

We should have walked out of NJ with at least one win.

Then we come home, go up a goal and he immediately proceeds to let in back to back horrendous goals which become the final nail in the coffin.

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07-26-2012, 05:54 PM
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No I don't. But the least he could have done was given us a chance to regain our footing.

We should have walked out of NJ with at least one win.

Then we come home, go up a goal and he immediately proceeds to let in back to back horrendous goals which become the final nail in the coffin.
if you hate the goalie then why are rooting for them? if bryz wins a cup you'll still hate him so why are you even a flyers fan?

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07-26-2012, 05:59 PM
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if you hate the goalie then why are rooting for them? if bryz wins a cup you'll still hate him so why are you even a flyers fan?
lulz

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07-26-2012, 06:02 PM
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Bernie Parent 1974
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Carle really sucked that series. Terrible passing out of the D-zone. Briere, Jagr, JVR were terrible defensively and the first 2 were just too slow for Devils.
Danny is always brutal defensively. especially so in that series. terrible decision making [not pressuring Kovi in OT, going to the bench instead & allowing him to make the open pass for the game winner]


the ONLY Flyer who did his job vs NJ was Bryz.
Period.

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