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The case for a 1-year surgical tank for the Habs

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Old
07-26-2012, 12:13 PM
  #26
Takashi
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All your points (except the tanking) can be made even if we finish 8th ..

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07-26-2012, 12:15 PM
  #27
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I reject the OP's analysis, which could not be more one-sided. The team is a lot better tan their record indicates (ther OP grudgingly admits that the goal differential was better than that of several teams that finished ashead of them). They were beset with injuries, the coaching situation was chaotic, Cammalleri was a distraction (aside from his lousy season), and there was anarchy in the front office (which has been stabilized). I look for improvement in Emelin, Markov, Diaz, and Eller. Plekanec can look forward to better support. The addition of Prust, Armstrong, and (ugh) Bouillon, should stiffen the spine. The only loss I bemoan was Kostitsyn but there's time to find a suitable replacement (including Kostitsyn himself). The preseason could very well produce a new regular or two. Finally, a drastic attempt at rebuilding, based on finding gems in the 2013 draft, could be an embarrassing failure. If I seem too optimistic, Bergevin simply will not do what the OP wants, so I guess we can look forward to months and months of the OP's gloom and doom. I predict a MUCH better start in October.

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07-26-2012, 12:16 PM
  #28
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The tank = win thing is overblown. Just cuz a few teams did (Chicago, Pens) doesn't mean everyone does (Oilers, Panthers).

Look at a team like the Bruins who won just by solidly building up a team by trading, UFAs and drafing well outside the top 5, same for the LA kings and Detroit red wings.

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07-26-2012, 12:25 PM
  #29
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I hate the connotations of the word "tank" when it comes to sports. I find the whole idea offensive.

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07-26-2012, 12:32 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HCH View Post
I hate the connotations of the word "tank" when it comes to sports. I find the whole idea offensive.
tank/development/transition/evaluation/rebuilding.

Pick your euphemism and go with what we feels good.

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07-26-2012, 12:33 PM
  #31
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season hasn't even started and we are throwing the towel already

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFZaR...ure=plpp_video


GO HABS GO!!!!!!!!!!

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Old
07-26-2012, 12:36 PM
  #32
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Reactions to the OP (as mentioned by Teufelsdreck: the OP = a one-sided analysis)...

Gill is one of the worst 5/5 players in the league; when he is on the ice you can almost be sure that the action will take place in your zone. His outlet passes are non existant and when he takes control of the puck, he immediately gives it back (clear it through the boards) to the opponents.

Cammalleri is an extremely high maintenance player who will always put himself ahead of the team. Also keep in mind: when he was playing his worst hockey in recent years, he went public with "I am currently playing my best hockey".

Injuries played a major role last season; we ranked top5 in terms of games lost due to injuries.

Prust is a great addition: he directly answers one of our most obvious needs. Not sure why you are adding his name in the "negatives".

Regarding "... if you had told the average fan a year ago we'd benefit from these 4 "random" effects, which were not expected at the start of the year..."... our PK has been steadily good in the last seasons, Cole is a good player so are Pacioretty and Price, I still expect wins against Buf, Tor and Ott... what do you mean by "not expected"?

--------


=> I hate our current D squad (Markov's knee) but chatting about tanking in July? Yeah... whatever you are doing... don't keep doing it: you are doing it wrong.


Edit: And thanks to Gauthier, we already have 3 picks in the first 2 rounds of 2013.


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Old
07-26-2012, 12:36 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burke the Legend View Post
The tank = win thing is overblown. Just cuz a few teams did (Chicago, Pens) doesn't mean everyone does (Oilers, Panthers).

Look at a team like the Bruins who won just by solidly building up a team by trading, UFAs and drafing well outside the top 5, same for the LA kings and Detroit red wings.
The Kings won through tanking. Drew Doughty was a 2nd overall. Anze Kopitar was 11th overall. They got Mike Richards by trading 5th overall Brayden Schenn. They got Jeff Carter by trading 3rd overall Jack Johnson.

The Los Angeles model is the same as the Pittsburgh/Chicago model.

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Old
07-26-2012, 12:40 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Bergevin simply will not do what the OP wants, so I guess we can look forward to months and months of the OP's gloom and doom. I predict a MUCH better start in October.
Thus far, Bergevin is doing exactly what I want him to do.

He didn't go for Semin, Parise, or Suter. He didn't go for talent and performance.

He went for Bouillon, Prust, and Armstrong. Those are perfect rebuilding/development moves.

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07-26-2012, 12:46 PM
  #35
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The Habs are an elite injury team year in and year out. Last year wasn't so bad. We were only missing one top-4 dman and one top-6 forward. We didn't need to trade for Mara and Sopel, nor did we have the entire 2nd line on the injury reserve at any one time.

Every single summar, Habs fans say "if we assume that there are no injuries next year then we'll do better in the standings", and then at the end of the season they say "we only did bad because of the injuries". It's an old, worn out excuse. There are injuries every year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
Regarding "... if you had told the average fan a year ago we'd benefit from these 4 "random" effects, which were not expected at the start of the year..."... our PK has been steadily good in the last seasons, Cole is a good player so are Pacioretty and Price, I still expect wins against Buf, Tor and Ott... what do you mean by "not expected"?

--------
Did anybody expect Cole to have the best season of his career? I think people were predicting 25 goals, not 35. That's what his career stats show.

Our PK has been steadily good, but this was exceptional. And we did this without Roman Hamrlik. Hamrlik-Spacek was our shutdown pair, so it would have been expected that our PK drops.

The division was very weak this year. Toronto was 5th worst in the league, they did worse than last year in spite of being a young team. Ryan Miller had a concussion. Normally if your division rivals regress you expect to rise in the standings.

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Old
07-26-2012, 12:49 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
I reject the OP's analysis, which could not be more one-sided. The team is a lot better tan their record indicates (ther OP grudgingly admits that the goal differential was better than that of several teams that finished ashead of them). They were beset with injuries, the coaching situation was chaotic, Cammalleri was a distraction (aside from his lousy season), and there was anarchy in the front office (which has been stabilized). I look for improvement in Emelin, Markov, Diaz, and Eller. Plekanec can look forward to better support. The addition of Prust, Armstrong, and (ugh) Bouillon, should stiffen the spine. The only loss I bemoan was Kostitsyn but there's time to find a suitable replacement (including Kostitsyn himself). The preseason could very well produce a new regular or two. Finally, a drastic attempt at rebuilding, based on finding gems in the 2013 draft, could be an embarrassing failure. If I seem too optimistic, Bergevin simply will not do what the OP wants, so I guess we can look forward to months and months of the OP's gloom and doom. I predict a MUCH better start in October.
I agree with you that the team will be better than last year, if only because the team was, in a morbid way, lucky to translate what should have been a season in which they narrowly missed the playoffs into a 3rd overall pick. Another top-5 pick is unlikely. That said, this team is in no way a contender to do anything other than barely squeak into the playoffs. If that happens, great, but as one of the previous posters wrote, the worst possible thing that Marc Bergevin could do is spend money on more quick fixes just to increase the chances of a low playoff seed. Signing Shane Doan, who is going to cost a team way too much money for too many years considering his age and production, would be just about the worst possible thing the Habs could do at the moment. Cap space in 2014 or 2015 should be saved for when the team is a contender, to push them over the top.

As for this year, it should be used to burn another year off the albatross contracts left over by the previous regime so that buyouts next summer are less expensive, parking Gomez in Hamilton if need be (unless a penalty-free buyout amnesty becomes an option as part of the new CBA, in which case he should be fired into the centre of the sun ASAP). Leave Galchenyuk in junior and Leblanc in Hamilton, and just do as well as possible with what you have. If Price has a good year, Markov looks like anything like his past self, Cole doesn't regress too much, and the younger players progress, we may well see playoff hockey next spring.

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Old
07-26-2012, 12:51 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ Breadman View Post
Why do people keep saying we need to tank, we have a young stud goalie(price), 1 young stud d(pk) and one up front(patches). That is the rebuild, no need to tank any further
Like I said, The Buffalo Sabres model doesn't work.

Miller, Myers, Vanek (approximately equal to) Price, Subban, Pacioretty.

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07-26-2012, 12:51 PM
  #38
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Every draft is one of the deepest drafts ever (until it happens, of course).

We had a great draft this year, let's gain some respect back for this franchise and at least try to get better.

I should mention that our draft was so good this year, I'm not sure we could feasibly top it no matter how deep the draft is next year, unless we end up with the first overall, which is unlikely. We got two first rounders for the price of a first and a second. Getting Collberg was a gift from Odin and Thor. My prayer pleased them.


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Old
07-26-2012, 12:53 PM
  #39
Kjell Dahlin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
The Habs are an elite injury team year in and year out. Last year wasn't so bad. We were only missing one top-4 dman and one top-6 forward. We didn't need to trade for Mara and Sopel, nor did we have the entire 2nd line on the injury reserve at any one time.


Did anybody expect Cole to have the best season of his career? I think people were predicting 25 goals, not 35. That's what his career stats show.

Our PK has been steadily good, but this was exceptional. And we did this without Roman Hamrlik. Hamrlik-Spacek was our shutdown pair, so it would have been expected that our PK drops.

The division was very weak this year. Toronto was 5th worst in the league, they did worse than last year in spite of being a young team. Ryan Miller had a concussion. Normally if your division rivals regress you expect to rise in the standings.
A healthy Cole will give you speed and 50-60 points; nothing unexpected about it imo. Regarding the PK... totally in sync with what we witnessed in the last seasons. Our PKers (we only lost Darche) Plekanec, Moen, Gorges, Subban, Gionta.. are still onboard.

What about your other "key" (in bold) points:

Gill has been replaced by Bouillon, and is thus a step down.

"... Gill is one of the worst 5/5 players in the league; when he is on the ice you can almost be sure that the action will take place in your zone. His outlet passes are non existant and when he takes control of the puck, he immediately gives it back (clear it through the boards) to the opponents..."

Cammalleri has been replaced by the inferior Bourque.

"... Cammalleri is an extremely high maintenance player who will always put himself ahead of the team. Also keep in mind: when he was playing his worst hockey in recent years, he went public with "I am currently playing my best hockey"...."

Nothing about the injuries

"... Injuries played a major role last season; we ranked top5 in terms of games lost due to injuries..."

AK46 has been replaced by Brandon Prust, gving us more physicality but less goal scoring.

"... Prust is a great addition: he directly answers one of our most obvious needs. Not sure why you are adding his name in the "negatives"..."

2013 is one of the deepest drafts in NHL history.

"... And thanks to Gauthier, we already have 3 picks in the first 2 rounds of 2013"

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Old
07-26-2012, 12:58 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
The Kings won through tanking. Drew Doughty was a 2nd overall. Anze Kopitar was 11th overall. They got Mike Richards by trading 5th overall Brayden Schenn. They got Jeff Carter by trading 3rd overall Jack Johnson.

The Los Angeles model is the same as the Pittsburgh/Chicago model.
Except that Jack Johnson was drafted by Carolina, and traded to LA (with Oleg Tverdovsky) for Tim Gleason and Eric Belanger. The Kings' run of very bad seasons was 2007-2009, when they drafted Schenn and Doughty, but also whiffed on Thomas Hickey (4th overall in 2007) and Colton Teubert (their second first-rounder, 13th overall, in 2008). Their first round picks from the drafts before that all fell outside the top ten, hardly a tank.

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07-26-2012, 12:59 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
A healthy Cole will give you speed and 50-60 points; nothing unexpected about it imo. Regarding the PK... totally in sync with what we witnessed in the last seasons. Plekanec, Moen, Gorges, Subban, Gionta.. are still onboard.

What about your other "key" (in bold) points:

Gill has been replaced by Bouillon, and is thus a step down.

"... Gill is one of the worst 5/5 players in the league; when he is on the ice you can almost be sure that the action will take place in your zone. His outlet passes are non existant and when he takes control of the puck, he immediately gives it back (clear it through the boards) to the opponents.

Cammalleri has been replaced by the inferior Bourque.

Cammalleri is an extremely high maintenance player who will always put himself ahead of the team. Also keep in mind: when he was playing his worst hockey in recent years, he went public with "I am currently playing my best hockey".

Nothing about the injuries

Injuries played a major role last season; we ranked top5 in terms of games lost due to injuries.

AK46 has been replaced by Brandon Prust, gving us more physicality but less goal scoring.

Prust is a great addition: he directly answers one of our most obvious needs. Not sure why you are adding his name in the "negatives"...

2013 is one of the deepest drafts in NHL history.

And thanks to Gauthier, we already have 3 picks in the first 2 rounds of 2013..."
a) Goals are worth more than assists. Nobody was expecting 35 goals from Cole.
b) Gill was excellent on the PK and gave some size.
c) Cammalleri > Bourque, why are you arguing? Was he selfish when he scored 26 goals? He's averaged 22 goals in the past three seasons. Burque will probably never reach 20 goals again. There's a reason why Calgary added a 2nd rounder and Patrick Holland. There's a reason why the consensus of fans on this board thought we should have gotten more.
d) Prust is a good rebuilding move, I don't consider him a negative. In the same way that Eller benefited from playing with Moen, some other youngster will benefit from playing with Prust.

However, he won't replace Kostitsyn's goal scoring.

e) I've responded to your point about injuries. Habs are an elite injury team year in and year out. It's a constant.
f) I want more 1st rounders in 2013.

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07-26-2012, 01:02 PM
  #42
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Honestly I don't expect this team to be very good this year, I'm anti-tank on principle but if there was a year to consider selling early, it's this one.

There's a few questions that can only be answered by intending to compete at first though. For one thing - what is it we have with Eller and Desharnais? Both could end up role players, stars, or trade bait, we need to figure out what. Also, how much does Markov have left, and how much work does the defense need exactly?

Not to mention, even if the plan is to tank, it would be a good idea to get guys values up for the deadline. Right now nobody in the league respects anyone on this team enough to trade anything of value for them.

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07-26-2012, 01:02 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
a) Goals are worth more than assists. Nobody was expecting 35 goals from Cole.
b) Gill was excellent on the PK and gave some size.
c) Cammalleri > Bourque, why are you arguing? Was he selfish when he scored 26 goals? He's averaged 22 goals in the past three seasons. Burque will probably never reach 20 goals again. There's a reason why Calgary added a 2nd rounder and Patrick Holland. There's a reason why the consensus of fans on this board thought we should have gotten more.
d) Prust is a good rebuilding move, I don't consider him a negative. In the same way that Eller benefited from playing with Moen, some other youngster will benefit from playing with Prust.

However, he won't replace Kostitsyn's goal scoring.

e) I've responded to your point about injuries. Habs are an elite injury team year in and year out. It's a constant.
f) I want more 1st rounders in 2013.
The reason Calgary added a pick and a prospect is because Feaster lost his mind, not because Cammalleri is worth 6 mil/year. This is the same GM that gave away Reghr and signed Wideman for over 5 mil/year and doesn't believe in a rebuild when his only 2 stars are over 35 and his farm system is bottom 2 or 3 in the NHL.

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07-26-2012, 01:03 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by sakiaba View Post
Except that Jack Johnson was drafted by Carolina, and traded to LA (with Oleg Tverdovsky) for Tim Gleason and Eric Belanger. The Kings' run of very bad seasons was 2007-2009, when they drafted Schenn and Doughty, but also whiffed on Thomas Hickey (4th overall in 2007) and Colton Teubert (their second first-rounder, 13th overall, in 2008). Their first round picks from the drafts before that all fell outside the top ten, hardly a tank.
The Kings are a lot more like Chicago than Pittsburgh then.

All three teams needed their tanks to win the cup. However, Pittsburgh basically won off the tank alone, the rest of their team were scraps. Chicago and LA actually surrounded their tank players with a legitimate supporting and even primary cast, from Hossa through Quick.

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07-26-2012, 01:04 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
a) Goals are worth more than assists. Nobody was expecting 35 goals from Cole.
b) Gill was excellent on the PK and gave some size.
c) Cammalleri > Bourque, why are you arguing? Was he selfish when he scored 26 goals? He's averaged 22 goals in the past three seasons. Burque will probably never reach 20 goals again. There's a reason why Calgary added a 2nd rounder and Patrick Holland. There's a reason why the consensus of fans on this board thought we should have gotten more.
d) Prust is a good rebuilding move, I don't consider him a negative. In the same way that Eller benefited from playing with Moen, some other youngster will benefit from playing with Prust.

However, he won't replace Kostitsyn's goal scoring.
Kostitsyn's secondary goals scoring will be replaced by Bourque and/or Leblanc. Prust will replace Darche/Palushaj/Weber bottom lines input...

"... There's a reason why the consensus of fans on this board thought we should have gotten more..."

Oh really? Based on what?

Btw... regarding "... He's averaged 22 goals in the past three seasons..."... what's Bourque's average in the last 3 seasons?


Edit: for the records, I hate our current D squad (Markov's knee in mind) so I do not consider our Habs as a force in the East. Far from it to tell the truth! However I do think that your OP was a one sided analysis.


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07-26-2012, 01:04 PM
  #46
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I honestly don't really mind going for the playoffs this season. We were supposed to be a playoff team last season, and I still believe ending 15th in the east was a fluke.

The good thing about the upcoming draft is that even if we end up picking 16th or 17th, guys like Jonathan Drouin and Anthony Duclair might still be on the table...

I really wish we get Drouin!

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07-26-2012, 01:05 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
The reason Calgary added a pick and a prospect is because Feaster lost his mind, not because Cammalleri is worth 6 mil/year. This is the same GM that gave away Reghr and signed Wideman for over 5 mil/year and doesn't believe in a rebuild when his only 2 stars are over 35 and his farm system is bottom 2 or 3 in the NHL.
I agree with you that Montreal won the trade but ours is a minority view. Either way, Cammalleri for Bourque alone would not have happened.

I'm very stoked for Calgary's tank. We have their 2nd rounder. We should jump at the opportunity to trade for their 1st rounder if they have any injuries needing replacements in the early season.

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07-26-2012, 01:06 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I agree with you that Montreal won the trade but ours is a minority view. Either way, Cammalleri for Bourque alone would not have happened.

I'm very stoked for Calgary's tank. We have their 2nd rounder. We should jump at the opportunity to trade for their 1st rounder if they have any injuries needing replacements in the early season.
Of all of Gauthier's insane moves, the Cammalleri one made the most sense.

We weren't getting rid of Cammy without taking salary back. We might have been able to get a better player than Bourque, but at the cost of significantly more money. And that 2nd from Calgary is very nice; the possibility of another Collberg like pick is very exciting.


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07-26-2012, 01:11 PM
  #49
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No one has every provided an explanation of how to implement tanking as a strategy or game tactic. The way I understand it is that you field a team, you coach them as best you can, and the results are pretty much out of your hands. I guess you can trade players or not sign free agents, but there's still a salary cap floor.

If you want to tank, explain precisely what this entails from the general manager on down.

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07-26-2012, 01:17 PM
  #50
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No one has every provided an explanation of how to implement tanking as a strategy or game tactic. The way I understand it is that you field a team, you coach them as best you can, and the results are pretty much out of your hands. I guess you can trade players or not sign free agents, but there's still a salary cap floor.

If you want to tank, explain precisely what this entails from the general manager on down.
If you field the current roster and you tell the coach to do the best he can, and you tell the players to do the best they can, they'll finish between 12th and 15th.

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