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Redemption? Players who need to bounce back.

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Old
07-26-2012, 06:45 AM
  #176
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Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
Pretty much all the guys on the ice failed. The ones there early were Vanek and Sekera. Then Pominville, Myers and finally Gaustad. All of them share in the shame and lack of response.
Vanek at least ran into lucic. More then our "tough guys" did.

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07-26-2012, 09:14 AM
  #177
Jame
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Proove it. Let's see a post of yours irrationally ******** on vanek before roy got traded.
here's a thread i started in january.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...587&highlight=




Go build a new straw man off that

here's another one discussing the need to blow up the rochester core

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...467&highlight=

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07-26-2012, 09:28 AM
  #178
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Vanek at least ran into lucic. More then our "tough guys" did.
The response was insufficient from all of them. Comparing the responses on the ice at that moment is still measuring varying degrees of failure.

That said, can y'all rein in your commentary directed at one another and bring it back to the actual thread topic? 'k? Thanks.

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07-26-2012, 09:44 AM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
The response was insufficient from all of them. Comparing the responses on the ice at that moment is still measuring varying degrees of failure.

That said, can y'all rein in your commentary directed at one another and bring it back to the actual thread topic? 'k? Thanks.
And that's the bottom line...

I'm desperate for a team of players who react the way I expect in that situation...

It doesn't mean I want 4 lines of Ray-May-Barnaby (although... i do want 1 line like that again )

It means I want a team of David Backes's and Ryan Gezlaf's on the 1st line instead of Roy's and Vanek's

It means Kesler's and Doan's, instead of Connolly's and Boyes's.

I'll take the Iginla's over Pommer's

I know we can't have the Canadian or American Olympic teams... but we can expect a certain level of character, leadership, etc. But I don't think it's too much to expect a certain type of behavior/character/etc in those Season Defining moments.

I don't forgive easily.

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07-26-2012, 10:10 AM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
And that's the bottom line...

I'm desperate for a team of players who react the way I expect in that situation...

It doesn't mean I want 4 lines of Ray-May-Barnaby (although... i do want 1 line like that again )

It means I want a team of David Backes's and Ryan Gezlaf's on the 1st line instead of Roy's and Vanek's

It means Kesler's and Doan's, instead of Connolly's and Boyes's.

I'll take the Iginla's over Pommer's

I know we can't have the Canadian or American Olympic teams... but we can expect a certain level of character, leadership, etc. But I don't think it's too much to expect a certain type of behavior/character/etc in those Season Defining moments.

I don't forgive easily.
I can agree with nearly all of this. I think player size is something that you're about, which isn't bad, but isn't necessarily required in all players. And I think you'd agree with that. Player size isn't something that's a core requirement for me. Here's what I want:

I want a team with an identity. Preferably, I'd like it to be a well-balanced, tough, puck-possession style team in the mold of the Penguins. Not every player needs to be a grinder, but all need to be mentally tough and almost all need to be physically tough (I think a team can get away with one or two soft players if they do something else really well).

The other attribute I want is team chemistry. I want 23 guys on the same sheet of music, working together, no lasting friction between players/coaches, and all the players unified by central themes. Those themes are winning, character, standing up for each other, working hard. The leaders of the team need to embody these themes.

And then, obviously, talent.

I could care less about how lines are built, styles of play, etc. The Sabres don't need to be the Bruins, Flyers, or the Kings. The Red Wings were a largely finesse team that dominated the dead puck era. Anaheim played very physically during the open ice period after the lockout. Any style with any line combinations can work if the team has talent, chemistry, and a good, solid identity.

That's what I want. I think Buffalo has taken steps in that direction since Pegula became owner.

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07-26-2012, 10:15 AM
  #181
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They don't all have to like one another, but at the end of the day, it's the crest on the sweater that matters, not the nameplate on the back.

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07-26-2012, 10:32 AM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Der Jaeger View Post
I can agree with nearly all of this. I think player size is something that you're about, which isn't bad, but isn't necessarily required in all players. And I think you'd agree with that. Player size isn't something that's a core requirement for me. Here's what I want:

I want a team with an identity. Preferably, I'd like it to be a well-balanced, tough, puck-possession style team in the mold of the Penguins. Not every player needs to be a grinder, but all need to be mentally tough and almost all need to be physically tough (I think a team can get away with one or two soft players if they do something else really well).

The other attribute I want is team chemistry. I want 23 guys on the same sheet of music, working together, no lasting friction between players/coaches, and all the players unified by central themes. Those themes are winning, character, standing up for each other, working hard. The leaders of the team need to embody these themes.

And then, obviously, talent.

I could care less about how lines are built, styles of play, etc. The Sabres don't need to be the Bruins, Flyers, or the Kings. The Red Wings were a largely finesse team that dominated the dead puck era. Anaheim played very physically during the open ice period after the lockout. Any style with any line combinations can work if the team has talent, chemistry, and a good, solid identity.

That's what I want. I think Buffalo has taken steps in that direction since Pegula became owner.
we're on the same page

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They don't all have to like one another, but at the end of the day, it's the crest on the sweater that matters, not the nameplate on the back.
exactly

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07-26-2012, 10:35 AM
  #183
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Lucic hits Miller.

Vanek is first man in. Pominville sees this and appears to try to keep Chara out of the scrum. Understandable. Sekera is second man in.

Vanek and Sekera both fail at doing anything to Lucic, in part because his arms are long enough that he punches them before they get close. By the time Gaustad gets there, the scrum is so big he can't get to Lucic. Honestly, I think if Gaustad is the first man there it's all different, but the response was still weak.

I'm more upset nothing happened the rest of the game. I'm not even saying someone should've fought Lucic, losing a fight sends no message. Someone should've mugged Krejci, someone should've run Thomas, send a message somehow.

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07-26-2012, 11:53 AM
  #184
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Can all this Vanek discussion be moved to another thread? What does any of this have to do with the original topic?

Why do both sides have to be so black and white on this OT issue anyway??
Vanek was more culpable then most in that incident. It was a team wide failure but Vanek should have stepped up.

And yet, he is at fault but isn't a wimp! (OMG opposing ideas!!!) He takes a beating in front of the net all the time he plays through injuries.

I agree his character isn't like that of Ellis or Ray. But, I don't feel comfortable of questioning any NHL players passion for the game. The discipline and drive required to get that far necessitates passion. I think in Vanek's case, moving away from his home country at 14 years old where he doesn't speak the language - perhaps his personality (easy going; not as emotionally demonstrative) is necessary to survive in this situation.
Who knows? Everyone is different. These aren't hockey playing robots.

And with the Roy trade, I predict the new Jame whipping boy pecking order is 1) Vanek 2) Miller 3) Ennis (Ruff above all else) (Leino not even worthy of mention)

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07-26-2012, 11:58 AM
  #185
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Anyway on topic

I think the most likely prepped for a rebound/in need of a rebound are
1) Miller - would like to see how he does without a concussion
2) Stafford - I don't expect a return to 2 years ago but a slight improvement with a year of Ennis
3) Myers - I hope he can avoid a disappointing first half AGAIN
4) Leino - I think he will still be a disappointing signing, but I think he will put forward more consistent effort and his numbers will reflect that (at times he looked really good last season)

I don't expect improvements (in stats) from Gerbe - I think he is a 100% heart player but I don't see him as big goal scorer

I don't see Adam as top 9 NHLer but I hope I am wrong.

I think Hoff's role is different on Buff than it was in Van and his numbers last year may be what we get from him - I am fine with that he is still a great player for us.

I will be watching Hodgson and Foligno with interest.

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07-26-2012, 12:10 PM
  #186
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I hope Ruff doesn't experiment with stupid lineup dynamics early in the season again. Gerbe-Roy-Stafford/Ennis-Leino-Boyes did nobody any favors, and neither did gifting Gragnani all the zone starts and time with Vanek-Poms when Ehrhoff and Myers had a slow first 10-15 games.

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07-26-2012, 12:16 PM
  #187
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I don't think we have to worry about anything happening this season like last year with a 270 pound machine willing to beat down anyone who tries anything. And its not like Kaleta and Ott won't go after anyone either

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07-26-2012, 12:17 PM
  #188
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Quote:
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Anyway on topic

I don't expect improvements (in stats) from Gerbe - I think he is a 100% heart player but I don't see him as big goal scorer
I don't see much either. Especially considering it looks more and more like he'll be penciled in on the 4th line playing with McCormick and Kaleta. And I doubt he'll get much power play time either.

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07-26-2012, 12:21 PM
  #189
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I don't think Vanek has anything to do with our problems. He has played through many injuries, but when healthy in the beginning of last season he was on a tear.

He is our most talented forward and the least of our problems when healthy. If anyone suggests to get rid of TV, I would suggest not becoming a GM ever

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07-26-2012, 02:19 PM
  #190
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I don't think Vanek has anything to do with our problems. He has played through many injuries, but when healthy in the beginning of last season he was on a tear.

He is our most talented forward and the least of our problems when healthy. If anyone suggests to get rid of TV, I would suggest not becoming a GM ever
At what point do we consider his injuries a problem? I don't really care if he plays through them. If he's hurt enough to not be effective (which happens quite frequently now) then playing through it makes no difference to me. But he always seems to get the "he's injured" excuse when not playing well. He's a streaky forward (he also had a pretty bad start to the 2010-11 season, injured or not) who seems to be hurt often. Isn't that a problem? Shouldn't that be a problem? Connolly was constantly ragged on for being injured. Why not Vanek? He's not effective when playing through it, so what's the difference between the two?

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07-26-2012, 02:43 PM
  #191
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So get back on topic, shall we?

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07-26-2012, 02:45 PM
  #192
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At what point do we consider his injuries a problem? I don't really care if he plays through them. If he's hurt enough to not be effective (which happens quite frequently now) then playing through it makes no difference to me. But he always seems to get the "he's injured" excuse when not playing well. He's a streaky forward (he also had a pretty bad start to the 2010-11 season, injured or not) who seems to be hurt often. Isn't that a problem? Shouldn't that be a problem? Connolly was constantly ragged on for being injured. Why not Vanek? He's not effective when playing through it, so what's the difference between the two?

My question there would be is that on Vanek or Ruff? If Vanek is too hurt to be effective, why is ruff still playing him, when a call up would probably be more effective at the time, and allow Vanek to heal faster and get back on his game faster? So is that truly an issue with Vanek or is that an issue with Ruff, as he is the one that makes the final call on whether a player plays or sits.

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07-26-2012, 02:58 PM
  #193
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If I had to pick one player to have a redemptive season, it's Myers. A redemptive season for me:

- Playing #1D minutes in a two-way capacity against good competition
- Continued expansion of his hitting game and overall physical play
- Scoring 50 points, including double digit goals
- Playing in all situations
- Stays healthy

Additionally, he needs to get in one provoked fight where he goes ape-sh$t and destroys someone. Just to add to his intimidation factor.

I think a true #1D playing well fixes a lot of other problems. Or at least covers them up. If Myers did all this listed above, Buffalo's chances at the playoffs are dramatically increased, I believe.

I still believe in Myers. Pronger had similar troubles at the start of his career, with some off-ice stuff effecting on-ice stuff, but he came around. I think Myers can as well.

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07-26-2012, 03:04 PM
  #194
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Additionally, he needs to get in one provoked fight where he goes ape-sh$t and destroys someone. Just to add to his intimidation factor.
Maybe if he were to get some boxing lessons....in his fight last season he didn't look at all scary.

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07-26-2012, 03:09 PM
  #195
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If I had to pick one player to have a redemptive season, it's Myers. A redemptive season for me:

- Playing #1D minutes in a two-way capacity against good competition
- Continued expansion of his hitting game and overall physical play
- Scoring 50 points, including double digit goals
- Playing in all situations
- Stays healthy

Additionally, he needs to get in one provoked fight where he goes ape-sh$t and destroys someone. Just to add to his intimidation factor.

I think a true #1D playing well fixes a lot of other problems. Or at least covers them up. If Myers did all this listed above, Buffalo's chances at the playoffs are dramatically increased, I believe.

I still believe in Myers. Pronger had similar troubles at the start of his career, with some off-ice stuff effecting on-ice stuff, but he came around. I think Myers can as well.
Yeah, definitely Myers. A return to Tallinder-pairing form would be fantastic.

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07-26-2012, 03:10 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by Der Jaeger View Post
If I had to pick one player to have a redemptive season, it's Myers. A redemptive season for me:

- Playing #1D minutes in a two-way capacity against good competition
- Continued expansion of his hitting game and overall physical play
- Scoring 50 points, including double digit goals
- Playing in all situations
- Stays healthy

Additionally, he needs to get in one provoked fight where he goes ape-sh$t and destroys someone. Just to add to his intimidation factor.

I think a true #1D playing well fixes a lot of other problems. Or at least covers them up. If Myers did all this listed above, Buffalo's chances at the playoffs are dramatically increased, I believe.

I still believe in Myers. Pronger had similar troubles at the start of his career, with some off-ice stuff effecting on-ice stuff, but he came around. I think Myers can as well.
Myers does need to show some progression, and earn Ruff's confidence to return to a shutdown role.

I'd like to see Sekera-Myers back together. When the Sabres went on that 2nd half run in 2011, it was fueled by that pairing (and pommer/vanek chemistry)

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07-26-2012, 03:12 PM
  #197
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Myers does need to show some progression, and earn Ruff's confidence to return to a shutdown role.

I'd like to see Sekera-Myers back together. When the Sabres went on that 2nd half run in 2011, it was fueled by that pairing (and pommer/vanek chemistry)
I agree that seems like the best pairing right now for Myers. Only issue with that is then who do you put with Regehr? Weber/Regehr looked shaky often, and the general assumption is that Ehrhoff/Sulzer will be a line again at least to start the season. If McNabb makes it interesting things will happen though I suppose.

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07-26-2012, 03:18 PM
  #198
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I agree that seems like the best pairing right now for Myers. Only issue with that is then who do you put with Regehr? Weber/Regehr looked shaky often, and the general assumption is that Ehrhoff/Sulzer will be a line again at least to start the season. If McNabb makes it interesting things will happen though I suppose.
To function like a contender, our #1 minute eating pair, has to face top competition, and carry the load in all situations.

Sekera-Myers is the only pair capable of doing that... #1 ALL SITUATION minutes

Ehrhoff-Sulzer should get BIG ozone draw minutes, PP, and quality minutes while avoiding the opponents top line, lots of minutes when playing from behind (offense needed)

Leopold-Regehr should get Dzone draws, PK, and late game lead minutes (defense needed)

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07-26-2012, 03:20 PM
  #199
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Maybe if he were to get some boxing lessons....in his fight last season he didn't look at all scary.
He also wasn't actually fighting. He was just tying up a guy to save Kaleta the trouble. Plus, I think he still wasn't really sure of his wrist being 100%.

I agree I'd like to see a bit more of a mean streak in him, but that "fight" is a terrible example. It was after the game was over. He had no reason to engage other than saving Kaleta the hassle.

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07-26-2012, 03:20 PM
  #200
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To function like a contender, our #1 minute eating pair, has to face top competition, and carry the load in all situations.

Sekera-Myers is the only pair capable of doing that... #1 ALL SITUATION minutes

Ehrhoff-Sulzer should get BIG ozone draw minutes, PP, and quality minutes while avoiding the opponents top line, lots of minutes when playing from behind (offense needed)

Leopold-Regehr should get Dzone draws, PK, and late game lead minutes (defense needed)
Thank you, I forgot about Leo. Nice thing about these is that several of these guys can eat up huge minutes too if needed (Hoff and Leo in particular, Sekera obviously can't go beyond 22 minutes. )

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