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The case for a 1-year surgical tank for the Habs

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Old
07-26-2012, 02:41 PM
  #76
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There is no reason to think we are better right now than Ottawa, Carolina, Tampa or Florida.

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07-26-2012, 02:45 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by SeriousHabs View Post
Yes, that is what we want. Try your best, and if that leads to failure, don't go looking for aging players that you can trade for picks ala Gainey/Gauthier.
absolutely.

Patient, systematic, methodical...

no more inconsistent moves that aren't strategically consistent with the overall vision of the roster they are trying to build.

no short term waisting assets to fill temporary holes, or worse, short-sighted decisions on young players who simply need more time/opportunity to either contribute OR be valuable trade assets.

basically the exact opposite of the Gainey/Gauthier approach is what we need, and so far, the signs are good that this new management team "gets" it.

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07-26-2012, 03:01 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by SeriousHabs View Post
This should be stickied and be a forced read for every poster. On top of that, a mandatory read of the list of injuries on other teams should be added. Last year, the Habs lost Gionta. That is all. Markov was already injured. 35 more games of Gionta and more Markov doesn't punt you from 15th to ''good''.
Sorry, but it does. If Markov is back, the team is much better. I know that shows a fundamental problem with the makeup of the team in that they rely on a guy coming back from injury. But it's knee surgery not amputation, half the guys in the NHL have had it.

If Markov is back and clicking as a top-pairing the defenceman, we're much much better. There is statistical proof to show that. Again, it sucks that the team has to rely on that.

I'm willing to bet that if this team gets off to a nice start, they'll do the usual Habs move we've seen: grind out wins with a decent group of veteran forwards and contributions from a couple of kids, and use the Powerplay led by Markov to put up goals.

Subban better be shooting a ******** of one-timers this offseason. For all the hate Pierre McGuire gets, he actually nailed it last season when he said the Habs a) need to stay healthy and b) need to have a top-five powerplay, to make the playoffs. It's the same story this year and for a couple of more years while the prospect depth is re-stocked.

They have the building blocks of an elite goaltender and hopefully two top pairing defenceman. Cross your fingers and hope for the playoffs, there's no other option. Anyone who says otherwise, fine have fun praying for losses in February so that a hockey team can draft another set of 18-year-olds a handful of places higher than another team, who may or may not turn out to be good players.

Spark Notes:

Go Habs, see you in the playoffs, flip the negativity, Markov rules.

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07-26-2012, 03:13 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by JC93 View Post
Sorry, but it does. If Markov is back, the team is much better. I know that shows a fundamental problem with the makeup of the team in that they rely on a guy coming back from injury. But it's knee surgery not amputation, half the guys in the NHL have had it.

If Markov is back and clicking as a top-pairing the defenceman, we're much much better. There is statistical proof to show that. Again, it sucks that the team has to rely on that.

I'm willing to bet that if this team gets off to a nice start, they'll do the usual Habs move we've seen: grind out wins with a decent group of veteran forwards and contributions from a couple of kids, and use the Powerplay led by Markov to put up goals.

Subban better be shooting a ******** of one-timers this offseason. For all the hate Pierre McGuire gets, he actually nailed it last season when he said the Habs a) need to stay healthy and b) need to have a top-five powerplay, to make the playoffs. It's the same story this year and for a couple of more years while the prospect depth is re-stocked.

They have the building blocks of an elite goaltender and hopefully two top pairing defenceman. Cross your fingers and hope for the playoffs, there's no other option. Anyone who says otherwise, fine have fun praying for losses in February so that a hockey team can draft another set of 18-year-olds a handful of places higher than another team, who may or may not turn out to be good players.

Spark Notes:

Go Habs, see you in the playoffs, flip the negativity, Markov rules.
http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/20...without-markov



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Old
07-26-2012, 03:15 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by gusfring View Post
There is no reason to think we are better right now than Ottawa, Carolina, Tampa or Florida.
There is no reason to think we are not better either. I just think last year was a fluke and that with some good management ( and i trust the ppl in place) and good coaching (i also trust the ppl in place for that matter) Montreal can compete with pretty much every team in the east... I can see NY, Philly , Boston , the pens and the caps being a step in front of us but they are in front of any other team in the east anyway. Montreal is on the right track and i think they have lots of assets to work with and tanking would probably just hurt the team in my opinion.

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Old
07-26-2012, 03:16 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by gusfring View Post
There is no reason to think we are better right now than Ottawa, Carolina, Tampa or Florida.
There about 10 rasons named Bourque, Kaberle, Markov, Diaz, Emelin, Gionta, Eller, Moen, Prust and Armstrong.

The Habs can be a lot better in a horry and the East is weak to begin with.

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Old
07-26-2012, 03:16 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
From the look of it Bergevin has taken a wait and see approach, which to me is smart given the drop we saw from Dec 1st to the end of season. Was it just bad coaching, a bad half year(issues in the room, injuries and trades) or a precursor of things to come. By mostly making understated depth moves so far MB seems to want to give some of the guys that were hurt or under performing a real shot, which makes a lot of sense since A-just dumping them we'd lose them for nothing and B-we'd have to waste valuable assets to replace/upgrade them with UFA's or trades.

We have a pile of players that can do a lot better than 2011-2012...

Markov(he barely played and looked out of sync when he was there) If he gets back to an all-star level that's like signing Suter(or better) as a UFA.

Kaberle(he wasn't that bad here, but in general a down year) If he gets back to close to his 10-11 form that's like adding Wideman as a UFA.

Bourque(was the shell of his former self as a Hab) if he can get back to even a 20 goal pace, he adds depth offense that was missing last year.

Gionta(missed 2/3 of season) if he can stay healthy, that's like adding another 25 goal scorer to the lineup.

Moen(missed 34 games after a great start, missed almost whole 2nd half) adding more grit that wasn't there most of the 2nd half.

Prust Armstrong and Bouilllon are guys that were not there last year, they add truculence grit and toughness. Guys like Eller Emelin Diaz have an extra year under their belt and could evolve into much bigger contributors.

I think the Habs have a chance at finishing as high as top 5 in the conference, maybe top 3 given the realtively weak division as Boston and Ottawa could both slide back, if a lot of the IF's turn positive. Saying finishing 8th being the best case scenario is being quite pesimistic. If we bounce back and Boston slides back minus Thomas and Ottawa goes back to where everybody expected them to be, we could win the division. Buffalo has more than their share of question marks. Toronto doesn't look far off from a lottery team.
Good post.

The OP was ridiculous as he was ridiculously pessimistic, let alone the fact that tanking just doesn't exist.

I am very sceptical about Kaberle as he is in terrible condition and just doesn't seem to want to put the work in to get into shape.

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Old
07-26-2012, 03:17 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Jmac1160 View Post
Oh please you mean to tell me that man games didn't matter? Cole DD and Pac man were together for a while and the devleoped chemistry. Meanwhile lines 2 3 and 4 have never been together longer than 10 games. How can you develop any chemistry that way? Have you played hockey?


Thanks for reading properly. I said overrated and i also said in my opinion. Overrated from the people saying we had it worst in the league. The players who did get hurt for the most part weren't as crucial. Id much rather gomez hurt for the majority of the year than patches, pleks, etc.

I never said it didnt mater, obviously any injury hurts the club.

The never played hockey part is actually really funny if you knew me.

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07-26-2012, 03:21 PM
  #84
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The Carolina Hurricanes just signed Alexander Semin.

Bergevin could have easily offered that contract, and he would have only done so if he valued winning.

Barring a major trade, Semin was our last chance to improve. We won't make the playoffs now. Further, this means Carolina is guaranteed to finish ahead of us in the standings. They were better than us last year, and now they've added Jordan Staal and Alexander Semin -- frightening.


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Old
07-26-2012, 03:22 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
I am very sceptical about Kaberle as he is in terrible condition and just doesn't seem to want to put the work in to get into shape.
we need a Czech Habs fanatic paparazzi to spy on him, to know if he is really working out in the summer.

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Old
07-26-2012, 03:24 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by LaTenderness View Post
If u wanna see your team finish last go cheer for the Leafs
This.





I don't want to bring back bad memories but the only reason why we sucked last year

1) No Markov ( Veteran presence, Leadership & Power Play General)

2) No Gionta ( always flirts with 30 goals when he's healthy and without a doubt a leader on the team. Some may argue that Cole brought the 30 goals and leadership that Gionta had, but imagine if we had both)

3) Couldn't protect leads ( A mix of bad management, unexperienced nhl coaching and an unexperienced defensive core)

4) Carey Price was horrible in shootouts

5) Injuries ( Gomez, Diaz, Weber, Gionta, Desharnais, Moen and White all got injured and some more then once that season)

6) Management was on panic mode (We all know what good moves Gauthier can do when he has total contol, ex. The Wiz, Cole. But this year he did some panic moves trying to save his job, ex. Perry Pearn fired, JM fired, Cammy traded for Bourque during a game, Campoli, Kaberle, mishandling the Markov situation.)

This year we have at least 2 of those reasons aren't relevant anymore and hopefully more. As much as I'd like to have Nathan Mackinnon on my team, I'd rather see my team perform during the playoffs.

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Old
07-26-2012, 03:24 PM
  #87
Estimated_Prophet
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
we need a Czech Habs fanatic paparazzi to spy on him, to know if he is really working out in the summer.
Don't laugh.....I bet we could find one.

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Old
07-26-2012, 03:31 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
Don't laugh.....I bet we could find one.
I wasn't joking...

Let's start a Kickstarter to collect the funds to pay our mercenary.

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Old
07-26-2012, 03:40 PM
  #89
Monctonscout
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
Good post.

The OP was ridiculous as he was ridiculously pessimistic, let alone the fact that tanking just doesn't exist.

I am very sceptical about Kaberle as he is in terrible condition and just doesn't seem to want to put the work in to get into shape.
He showed up out of shape last year and had a crap year, if I was betting man I'd say he'll come in to shape much lighter and quicker.

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Old
07-26-2012, 03:45 PM
  #90
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These are the kind of moments we miss when we tank


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Old
07-26-2012, 03:49 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by jmdubois585 View Post
These are the kind of moments we miss when we tank

These are the kinds of moments you miss when you don't build:






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07-26-2012, 03:52 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Honestly I don't expect this team to be very good this year, I'm anti-tank on principle but if there was a year to consider selling early, it's this one.

There's a few questions that can only be answered by intending to compete at first though. For one thing - what is it we have with Eller and Desharnais? Both could end up role players, stars, or trade bait, we need to figure out what. Also, how much does Markov have left, and how much work does the defense need exactly?

Not to mention, even if the plan is to tank, it would be a good idea to get guys values up for the deadline. Right now nobody in the league respects anyone on this team enough to trade anything of value for them.
You don't appreciate your self-defeating internal inconsistency. If the 2013 draft is expected to be very rich, then GMs will think hard before trading their high draft choices for veterans. Therefore, I wouldn't expect a second rounder for a Hal Gill type (or for anyone else who doesn't fit into Bergevin's plans). As for firsts, well, the Habs weren't able to pick up any (not even late first rounders) in 2012 and they're less likely to gain any in 2013.

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Old
07-26-2012, 03:54 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
These are the kinds of moments you miss when you don't build:





Yeah cause Detroit LA and Boston never won any cups lately.

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07-26-2012, 03:59 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Yeah cause Detroit LA and Boston never won any cups lately.
Detroit isn't a realistic model. Our team has excellent drafting, but drafting Lidstrom in the 3rd, Zetterberg in the 6th and Datsyuk in the 7th round is off the scale luck. You shouldn't count on completely unrealistic scenarios. That's even more unlikely then the Habs having no major injuries next year.

Boston is a more pertinent example. They're a lot like Anaheim. Those 2 are outnumbered by Carolina, Los Angeles, Pittsburgh, and Chicago in terms of winning cups in the post-lockout era.

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07-26-2012, 04:07 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Detroit isn't a realistic model. Our team has excellent drafting, but drafting Lidstrom in the 3rd, Zetterberg in the 6th and Datsyuk in the 7th round is off the scale luck. You shouldn't count on completely unrealistic scenarios. That's even more unlikely then the Habs having no major injuries next year.

Boston is a more pertinent example. They're a lot like Anaheim. Those 2 are outnumbered by Carolina, Los Angeles, Pittsburgh, and Chicago in terms of winning cups in the post-lockout era.
Outnumbered as in what?

Carolina and LA are not in the same "suck for 5 years then win the cup" mold as Chicago and Pittsburgh.

Drafting Halak Markov Subban Desharnais late or as Undrafted FA's is also pretty spectacular.

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07-26-2012, 04:14 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Outnumbered as in what?

Carolina and LA are not in the same "suck for 5 years then win the cup" mold as Chicago and Pittsburgh.

Drafting Halak Markov Subban Desharnais late or as Undrafted FA's is also pretty spectacular.
I have four facts for you.

Carolina tanked. No Eric Staal, no Stanley Cup.

Los Angeles sucked for years. No Drew Doughty (2nd overall), no Anze Kopitar (11th overall), no Brayden Schenn (5th overall) / Mike Richards, no Stanley Cup.

Halak, Markov, Subban, Desharnais <<< Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Zetterberg.

There is nobody, anywhere on these boards, arguing for a Pittsburgh-style rebuild.

These 4 facts are indisputable. It really shows the weakness of your position that you're comparing Desharnais to Zetterberg.

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07-26-2012, 04:16 PM
  #97
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I think anyone who proposes an idea that proactively looks to "tank" is ridiculous. I personally like watching the Habs win games on a regular basis and there's nothing in tanking that assures that. Outside of Price, PK was a second rounder, Patches was a late 1st, McDonough would have bee a late first etc. There's no need to actively try to loose in an attempt to get a better draft pick.

We already have a solid youth corp and need some more talent that's readily available via trade of UFA signings. I for one would rather go that route then watch another year of intolerable hockey. Want a 1st rounder that bad, trade for one. Don't suck on purpose which no NHL would do in the 1st place, which is why talking about it is so absurd. Besides, even if Bergy went to the players and told them to intentionally tank, what message is that sending and why would any UFA EVER come play for us in the future knowing we're a team that will purposefully throw a season away in the opes of drafting an 18 year old. Just doesn't make any sense.

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07-26-2012, 04:23 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
I think anyone who proposes an idea that proactively looks to "tank" is ridiculous. I personally like watching the Habs win games on a regular basis and there's nothing in tanking that assures that. Outside of Price, PK was a second rounder, Patches was a late 1st, McDonough would have bee a late first etc. There's no need to actively try to loose in an attempt to get a better draft pick.
McDonagh was drafted 12th overall. We got him in a year when we missed the playoffs.

Pacioretty was drafted because we dealt top-4 dmen Craig Rivet at the deadline. Had we kept Rivet, we would not have drafted Pacioretty, we would have had the extra 2 points needed to make the playoffs, and thus not had McDonagh either.

We would have lost in the 1st round and drafted ~18th, Ian Cole perhaps, or Logan McMillan, or Angelo Esposito. Can't know for sure.

We'd also have no Gorges.

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Old
07-26-2012, 04:30 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Yeah cause Detroit LA and Boston never won any cups lately.
Boston just rebuilt 6 years ago, some have a short memory.

And they won the Chara lottery.

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Old
07-26-2012, 04:30 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I have four facts for you.

Carolina tanked. No Eric Staal, no Stanley Cup.

Los Angeles sucked for years. No Drew Doughty (2nd overall), no Anze Kopitar (11th overall), no Brayden Schenn (5th overall) / Mike Richards, no Stanley Cup.

Halak, Markov, Subban, Desharnais <<< Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Zetterberg.

There is nobody, anywhere on these boards, arguing for a Pittsburgh-style rebuild.

These 4 facts are indisputable. It really shows the weakness of your position that you're comparing Desharnais to Zetterberg.
1st of all none of those teams "tanked". Like us getting Glacheyuk, Carolina getting Staal was a "worst case scenario" season. They didn't pull of an Edmonton/Pittsburgh/Chicago/Phoenix/Columbus and suck 4-5 straight years in the bottom 3-4.

You just proved yourself wrong with the LA one, their two best players were non top 5 picks in Kopitar and Quick, with Brown not far behind. Doughty was their only core player drafted top 5, we already have Price and potentially Galchenyuk in house. LA is not comparable to the 5 teams I mentionned earlier.

Wether our 4 guys are as good as Detroit's is irrelevant, it still proves we can get great talent later in the draft and add it to guys like Price and Glachenyuk. If you draft well later(see Phillie and Boston) you don't necessarily need top 5 picks to get impact players.

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